what is the lowest amt of vodka i can use for

It's actually documented in the graph and chart that Gudruna posted (above).  The source data is  well referenced in the links accompanying the illustrations.

Hello builder.

You made the following claim (emphasis appears in the original):

You need 2ml vodka for eack 1mg of benzo

 

The standard ratio is 1mg benzo:2ml vodka: 8ml water. This gives yiou a very easy to use .1mg=1ml solution.

 

You can use more or less water, but again, the .1mg=1ml final concentration does not require any real math...just moive the decimal.

I was really hoping (but hardly expecting - after all, we have been through this type of thing before) for a direct reference from you. I don't think this is too much to ask.

Anyway. I checked those two posts at BB (they provide no citation for the '1:2:8' ratio, or even make mention of it), and the Abolghasem Jouyban reference (again, no mention of a '1:2:8' ratio). Further, the Abolghasem Jouyban research is not directly relatable to what some of our members are attempting with titration of their benzodiazepine pills.

Let's try this once more. Please provide a reliable source for the "standard" ratio of 1:2:8.

I will never understand why you want to add complexity to such a simple concept.

The graph clearly shows that it takes more than 1ml of a 40% alcohol/water solution to dissolve 1mg of the common benzos.  The "1mg benzo:2ml vodka"  is a simple rounding up that will work for any of the common benzos, and insure complete dissolution.. Can you use less than 2ml per mg?...well yes.  If you have the math skills to actually calculate 1mg per 1.4ml, 1mg per 1.6ml, etc, then go for it!  But 1mg per 2 mls will work everytime.

And if you're really paranoid about alcohol, then  just use PG.

And again, the 1mg:2ml:8ml ratio is also just about simplicity.  Once the 1mg:2ml solvent ratio is satisfied, the ratio of water doesn't matter.  The benzo is now definitely dissolved, and you can dillute to whatever concentration you choose. If you want more or less water, that's OK.  ABut a final ratio of .1mg=1ml simply eliminates any real math.  If you can understand "move the decimal"  you can understand .1mg=1ml.

Your bias against "homebrew" liquid is clearly apparent, and you will never acknowledge that it is the optimum alternative for most folk who are having difficulty tapering off of a benzo.

But then you add water, so your solution becomes only 8% alcohol. According to the above tables, 10 mL of a 10% alcohol solution will dissolve:

1.1 mg valium

1.1 mg ativan (lorazepam)

1.9 mg librium

0.4 mg klonopin (clonazepam)

unknown amount of xanax (alprazolam)

So far we only know that it might work for valium, ativan, and librium. Not saying it's proof, as there are other factors to consider.

And for the record, I am not against homebrewed liquids. I'm using liquid, but I make my solution differently.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I am following the discussion. I've learned there's a difference between what I can understand and what we know/believe we know works.

I decided that I would never use a method I can't myself understand, so for this reason I don't use plug-in spreadsheets. I have to be able to do the math with my own paper and pencil. (Currently this is 1mg K in 2ml 80 proof vodka, add 98ml water, so 10 times weaker than the suggested formula.)

But I don't know if it "works". I switched to pure tablets when I got to 1mg, 0.75mg, 0.5mg K and I plan to do the same at 0.25 (and 0.125 if I can do a decent job cutting a pill 4 ways). And I held at those pill-sized increments, because I believed that I would get some relief by using an FDA-approved product from time to time, during those points in the taper, instead of relying on my homebrew every single day.

So I don't know for sure that it works, but I know I'm functioning. And I did trust the advice I read here about vodka solutions for Klonopin. I am considering looking into a compounding pharmacy if I feel like that's a good plan for me in the future.

Best of luck to everyone!

Getting back to the original post, Cathymp is clearly struggling with the excessive alcohol she states:

HOWEVER, i do not want to use that much vodka anymore, i think it's affecting me. i am not kidding.      (i go through a new batch of 3 pills daily).  so, that means i am drinking 10 ml of vodka daily.  it might explain my dizzy head and "drunk" feeling. i am not kidding.

Builder, don't you think it would have been more considerate and supportive to simply have stated to Cathymp that "less alcohol would work ok" instead of contradicting the facts and causing even more confusion for the readers?

Irrespective of discussion and argument about Jouyban's research/experiments, the reality is that even if we assume that benzodiazepines go into solution in line with what Jouyban achieved in laboratory conditions (and using different ingredients), when ethanol is diluted to the degree utilised by Cathymp, it has about only the same ability as pure water to be a solution medium for benzodiazepine. If you look at the graph, the amount of benzodiazepine going into solution when the ethanol concentration goes below about 15% is practically zero. The concentration of ethanol in CVathymp's liquid mixture is about  is about 1.33%.

@HopeToDoThis I base the above numbers of Cathhymp first creating a one-part 10ml vodka/benzo liquid and then adding another 29 parts of water. But since the vodka contains about only 40% ethanol, this increases the water:ethanol ratio to 75:1. Please let me know if my figures are incorrect.

Cathhymp, I think, in your shoes, I would not bother with the vodka at all. At those concentrations, it has no greater ability to create a solution than plain water. Since this is the case, your liquid can be only be acting as a suspension medium. But water is a very poor suspension medium (for benzodiazepines). You should be sure to shake up your liquid immediately before drawing your dose. It might be that your symptoms are the result of assuming that you have solution rather than a poor suspension. This is potentially resolvable by, again, shaking the liquid immediately before drawing your dose. A better way might be to use one of the commercial suspension mediums on the market.

Irrespective of discussion and argument about Jouyban's research/experiments, the reality is that even if we assume that benzodiazepines go into solution in line with what Jouyban achieved in laboratory conditions (and using different ingredients), when ethanol is diluted to the degree utilised by Cathymp, it has about only the same ability as pure water to be a solution medium for benzodiazepine. If you look at the graph, the amount of benzodiazepine going into solution when the ethanol concentration goes below about 15% is practically zero. The concentration of ethanol in CVathymp's liquid mixture is about  is about 1.33%.

 

@HopeToDoThis I base the above numbers of Cathhymp first creating a one-part 10ml vodka/benzo liquid and then adding another 29 parts of water. But since the vodka contains about only 40% ethanol, this increases the water:ethanol ratio to 75:1. Please let me know if my figures are incorrect.

 

Cathhymp, I think, in your shoes, I would not bother with the vodka at all. At those concentrations, it has no greater ability to create a solution than plain water. Since this is the case, your liquid can be only be acting as a suspension medium. But water is a very poor suspension medium (for benzodiazepines). You should be sure to shake up your liquid immediately before drawing your dose. It might be that your symptoms are the result of assuming that you have solution rather than a poor suspension. This is potentially resolvable by, again, shaking the liquid immediately before drawing your dose. A better way might be to use one of the commercial suspension mediums on the market.

Yes, 75:1 water:ethanol.

Maybe Cathymp should just get rid of the vodka all together. According to the table, ativan is soluble in water at 0.05 mg/mL. Cathymp's solution is more dilute, at 0.01 mg/mL. I would use a bottle that can close tightly, let the pills deconstruct, then shake the bottle vigorously.

Looking at the original post (and maybe I missed something in later posts), Cathymp uses three 1 mg pills, but says she's at 3.12 mg. Where are the extra 0.12 mg coming from?

Sorry to jump back in, but I need to ask a dumb question. Does the alcohol (in this case, 80 proof vodka) not mix with water?

The more accurate way is to make a very strong solution? Thank you.

Sorry to jump back in, but I need to ask a dumb question. Does the alcohol (in this case, 80 proof vodka) not mix with water?

 

The more accurate way is to make a very strong solution? Thank you.

There are actually 2 separate processes in preparing a liquid benzo.

Step 1 is to dissolve your benzo in solvent.  The ratio of mgs of benzo to mls of liquid is important as we want the the benzo to fully dissolve.  If you look at the graph above, the values for a 40% concentration of alcohol:water (essentially, 80 proof vodka), the values are more than 1ml per mg, and less than 2ml per mg..  So if we just round up to 2mls  vodka for each 1mg of benzo, you can be assured  complete dissolution.

Step 2 is dilution.  Dilution makes you liquid easier to measure and reduces any error factor.  The dilution ratio is not critical; you can theoreticaly choose any ratio.  But for simplicity, a .1mg=1ml (1:2:8 ), or .01mg = 1ml  (1:2:98) are recommended.  Theey eliminate the need to do any math.  Just move the decimal to convert mgs to mls.

Since the solvency ratios vary with the alcohol:water ratio of the solvent, do NOT dillute the vodka before you dissolve the benzo.

Sorry to jump back in, but I need to ask a dumb question. Does the alcohol (in this case, 80 proof vodka) not mix with water?

 

The more accurate way is to make a very strong solution? Thank you.

 

There are actually 2 separate processes in preparing a liquid benzo.

 

Step 1 is to dissolve your benzo in solvent.  The ratio of mgs of benzo to mls of liquid is important as we want the the benzo to fully dissolve.  If you look at the graph above, the values for a 40% concentration of alcohol:water (essentially, 80 proof vodka), the values are more than 1ml per mg, and less than 2ml per mg..  So if we just round up to 2mls  vodka for each 1mg of benzo, you can be assured  complete dissolution.

 

Step 2 is dilution.  Dilution makes you liquid easier to measure and reduces any error factor.  The dilution ratio is not critical; you can theoreticaly choose any ratio.  But for simplicity, a .1mg=1ml (1:2:8 ), or .01mg = 1ml  (1:2:98) are recommended.  Theey eliminate the need to do any math.  Just move the decimal to convert mgs to mls.

 

Since the solvency ratios vary with the alcohol:water ratio of the solvent, do NOT dillute the vodka before you dissolve the benzo.

OK. I expect (hope) an actual pharmacologist might follow up this post, but we have been down this particular rabbit hole before.

When you create a solution, the solvent does not chemically alter the solute. The solute does not chemically bond with the solvent.

In this particular case we are using a solvent which is a mixture of two chemicals (water and ethanol)*. Depending upon the ratio of water to ethanol, a given volume of the mixture will take into solution differing amounts of a particular (pure) benzodiazepine. It does not matter in what order your add the three ingredients; it is the overall proportions which are important (for a given temperature, enough time, and maybe some other smaller factors I know nothing about).

* Technically, there can be only one 'solvent' - that is the substance which is in the greatest proportion. All the other substances are 'solutes'. So, since members are discussing using vodka (at 40% volume, and usually adding water on top of that), water is the actual 'solvent' here, in all cases. Ethanol and the benzodiazepine are solutes. A 'solution' is a homogeneous mixture of two or substances.

Got it!?

Edited to add: I am referring to simple solutions (which appears to be all we are considering here), not solvation (which apparently involves molecular charges) which is more complicated, or other, even more complicated, irrelevant cases to our discussion.

I had not been adding water before the pill(s) were dissolved in the 2ml vodka. Thank you.

But it makes no difference in what order you add them, that's my point.

I understand. I could have reasoned that if 80 proof vodka, which is alcohol plus water, is homogeneous, then 80 proof vodka plus water is also homogeneous. But I wanted to ask to be sure.

Thank you and best wishes to everyone.

It is not easy (for me, at least) to find something which properly describes the problem here. But this document on 'recrystallization' describes how the addition of water to an ethanol / organic compound solution commonly reduces solubility; benzodiazepine being the organic compound here.

Ethanol/water combinations are commonly used because ethanol has good dissolving ability for many organics, but is also infinitely co-soluble with water. Addition of water can rapidly and dramatically reduce the solubility of many organics and thus induce crystallization. While organic mixtures are also frequently useful, the difference in character between two organics is rarely as dramatic as the difference between water and an organic solvent.

The full document:

http://web.mnstate.edu/jasperse/Chem355/Recrystallization-2.doc.pdf

This corresponds with the data generated by Jouyban et al that solubility of (many) benzodiazepines rapidly decrease with lower of concentrations of ethanol in ethanol/water mixtures.

The notion (as espoused by builder and others) that once the benzodiazepine is in solution with ethanol*, the addition of water cannot affect solubility is patently false. On the contrary, the addition of water to reduce solubility of ethanol/organic solutions is well established fact and a very valuable purification technique.

* Not that is has been established to what degree the benzodiazepine ever enters into solution in the first place utilising our kitchen sink chemistry methods (and alternative ingredients).

What is important here is for members to understand the limits of what we know and to not make unreasonable extrapolations from snippets of research which they do not properly understand. I do not properly understand it either, but I acknowledge my limits and am guided by the postings from actual chemists to this forum. Jouyban's research is not directly applicable to what our members do here. From what is known, it might be reasonable to expect that ethanol makes for a better solvent than water for many benzodiazepines. But, you cannot calculate any numbers to any reasonable level of certainty. Everyone here is guessing.

 

When you create a solution, the solvent does not chemically alter the solute. 

That's the point I have repeatedly tried to emphasize.    Only the physical form is changed, from a dry particulate to a uniformly distributed lqiud.  The benzo itself is NOT chemically altered, and its potency and  efficacy is unchanged.  Hence my matra 1mg liquid is the same as 1mg dry.

I had not been adding water before the pill(s) were dissolved in the 2ml vodka. Thank you.

 

But it makes no difference in what order you add them, that's my point.

The Jouyban data (and the graph) show exactly the opposite.  The data cleaarly show that the solubility varies with the alcohol:water ratio.  If you start with a 40% alcohol solution (basically, 80 proof vodka), and add water, you no longer have  40% alcohol concentration, and the solubility will be changed.

The whole point of the Jouyban data is to show that the actual solubility varies with the ratio of alcohol to water.

I had not been adding water before the pill(s) were dissolved in the 2ml vodka. Thank you.

 

But it makes no difference in what order you add them, that's my point.

 

The Jouyban data (and the graph) show exactly the opposite.  The data cleaarly show that the solubility varies with the alcohol:water ratio.  If you start with a 40% alcohol solution (basically, 80 proof vodka), and add water, you no longer have  40% alcohol concentration, and the solubility will be changed.

 

The whole point of the Jouyban data is to show that the actual solubility varies with the ratio of alcohol to water.

But of course. So, why do you insist that the water must be added later? Here:

Sorry to jump back in, but I need to ask a dumb question. Does the alcohol (in this case, 80 proof vodka) not mix with water?

 

The more accurate way is to make a very strong solution? Thank you.

 

There are actually 2 separate processes in preparing a liquid benzo.

 

Step 1 is to dissolve your benzo in solvent.  The ratio of mgs of benzo to mls of liquid is important as we want the the benzo to fully dissolve.  If you look at the graph above, the values for a 40% concentration of alcohol:water (essentially, 80 proof vodka), the values are more than 1ml per mg, and less than 2ml per mg..  So if we just round up to 2mls  vodka for each 1mg of benzo, you can be assured  complete dissolution.

 

Step 2 is dilution.  Dilution makes you liquid easier to measure and reduces any error factor.  The dilution ratio is not critical; you can theoreticaly choose any ratio.  But for simplicity, a .1mg=1ml (1:2:8 ), or .01mg = 1ml  (1:2:98) are recommended.  Theey eliminate the need to do any math.  Just move the decimal to convert mgs to mls.

 

Since the solvency ratios vary with the alcohol:water ratio of the solvent, do NOT dillute the vodka before you dissolve the benzo.

The above is not first time you posted along these lines. I think you fail to grasp the meaning of my posts.

Thank you for all the info. I decided yesterday that I am going to start tapering with a combination of pills and liquid.

I'm at 0.4mg Klonopin now, so I'm going to do my best to cut my 0.5mg pills into 0.25mg pills (they are scored and it's still tricky to make decent halves) and titrate the difference beyond that. 0.25mg in pill form plus 0.15mg in homebrew liquid at this stage is my plan.

Builder,

I think I see the problem here. You are talking about vodka being a better medium than water to break down benzodiazepine crystals. That is probably true for many benzodiazepines. But you have failed to understand that at relatively low ratios of ethanol to water, recrystallization can occur (particularly if the benzodiazepine/ethanol solution is anywhere near saturation). That is, even though you have increased the volume of liquid by adding water, the liquid (mixture) will have lower ability to hold benzodiazepine in suspension for those benzodiazepines with very low water solubility (unless, of course, we use very large volumes of water to compensate). But, we do not know any figures for all this (what levels of solubilty are achievable) because what our members do at home is vastly different to what Jouyban did in the laboratory.