Struggling real bad at less than .5 mg Kolonopin. Any advice please?

Hi BB. I was doing pretty well in my taper of Kolonopin from 1.5 mg per day to about .5 mg per day. Then all heck broke loose. Panic attacks, anxiety, unbelievable insomnia ( sleeping maybe 3 hours per night, dizziness, confusion).

 

I was cutting my pills for many months and then converted to a liquid titration using PG as a solvent.

Throughout my taper I have used Dr. Ashton’s advice of cutting between 5% and 10% every 2 weeks. I am currently cutting at about 8% which is approximately .003 mg cut per day.

 

My question is: Should I slow my cut rate to .001 per day? I think I once read that is more tolerable for Kolonopin at this low dose but I am so confused now I can’t remember where I read that on BB.

 

I don’t want to convert to Valium even though that is longer lasting because my Pdoc would think I am crazy and I have heard that some people don't tolerate Valium well.

 

I don’t want to updose or do a long term hold if I don’t have to.

 

Can someone please tell me if going to a .001 cut per day on Kolonopin at this low dose will help. It will seriously prolong my taper so I don’t want to do it unless it will truly make a difference.

 

Does anyone know from experience here or know someone that does have experience with this. I could really use some help now. I am barely functional and very scared.

 

Thank you!

Hello, John123.  I am sorry you are struggling.

 

Based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere, it is not uncommon for individuals who are discontinuing clonazepam to experience an uptick in withdrawal symptoms when they reach lower doses (e.g. doses below 0.5mg) and/or when they have reduced their original total daily dose by two-thirds.  I’ve also read that one strategy individuals use to address this challenge is to decrease their taper rate. For example, when Crazy Canuck (see link below) reached a dose of 0.15mg clonazepam, he experienced an uptick in symptoms.  He reduced his taper rate by 50% and was able to continue his taper.

 

You also might want to ask yourself if other recent changes in your taper plan might be contributing to your current distress.  Here’s a rough timeline based on previous posts:

 

On September 1, you posted that your total daily dose was 0.5mg.

 

On September 30, you indicated your taper “had been going pretty well”.

 

On October 9, you indicated you were going to (a) change from dosing two times a day to dosing three times a day and (b) switch from a dry to a liquid taper using a homemade liquid (regular tablets, propylene glycol, and water) “in a few weeks.”

 

On October 23, you indicated you were going to try increasing your cut rate from 5% to 8%. 

 

On December 26, you indicated you were now at 0.21mg of Klonopin/clonazepam. You also reported that over the past few weeks, your withdrawal symptoms had increased to the point where you were essentially homebound.

 

Based on the above, you have made three changes in your taper plan from September 30 to December 26: (1) you changed from dosing two times a day to three times a day, (2) you switched from dry tapering to using a homemade liquid, and (3) you increased your taper rate from 5-8%.  Did these changes go smoothly for you?  Or did you notice an uptick or change in withdrawal symptoms? It also might be worth noting that from September 1 to December 26, you reduced your dose by 58% (or an average of 14.5% a month). 

 

I hope the above analysis is helpful.  Hats off to you on your tapering efforts thus far!  I am sending all good thoughts and best wishes your way as you complete your journey.  Libertas

 

Benzo Detox - Top 10 Questions Answered - YouTube

Wow Libertas! Thank you for all this effort in analysis to help me. It is helpful for me to see it all in one place. You are a saint.

 

I suspect the increase from a 5% taper rate over 2 weeks to a 8% taper rate over 2 weeks may have hurt me and the 14.5% recent monthly rate may have caught up with me.

 

I based my entire taper schedule on Jim Hawk of BB taper app on www.alwaysbenzo.data.

I have spent the last few hours looking back at that. I realize I chose the option of fixed quantity reductions without an attenuated ending. Jim Hawk says in the “Read Me” section that the fixed quantity reduction method can lead to severe withdrawal symptoms at the lower end. That has happened to me!

I was doing pretty well until recently.

 

I am now going to analyze whether I will proceed with a 5% taper fixed quantity reduction with an attenuated ending ( the attenuated ending  slows the taper rate to 1/3 of what it previously was) or switch to the fixed percentage reduction method offered on the Jim Hawk app. The “Read Me” button says the fixed percentage reduction method is much gentler from a symptoms point of view.

 

The difficulty I see with the fixed percentage reduction method is that at a 5% taper rate it takes a bit more than 2 years to taper .5 mg. That is real slow!

 

Any thoughts by anyone on this would be greatly appreciated!!

Hi Libertas. I just watched the YT video of Crazy Canuck on the Top 10 questions on Benzos and learned about his Excel spreadsheet with whole fat milk method. It sounds very encouraging since he says if we follow this method we should easily succeed.

 

I am going to study all his YT videos over the weekend and maybe go that route. It sounds extremely promising.

 

Thank you and Happy New Year!!!!

Hello, John123.  I’m delighted the analysis was helpful. One of the lessons I’ve learned is that it is often difficult to “see the forest from the trees” while in benzodiazepine withdrawal.  Another lesson I’ve learned is one should be cautious about using tools such as the Jim Hawk Taper tool and the Crazy Canuck spreadsheet. 

 

Why? As you’ve experienced yourself, one can be lulled into a false sense of security (i.e. “I plugged my numbers into a tool, it generated a plan. If I follow the plan, all will be well.”) Unfortunately, benzodiazepine withdrawal is much more complicated and nuanced than that. 

 

So, might I encourage you to consider adopting a “let my symptoms be my guide” approach to the last leg of your taper?  By this I mean, rather than trying to plan out the remainder of your taper from start to finish, take it one day at a time.  Based on your past experience, make a “best guess” as to a taper rate and schedule that will work for you. Keep a daily log of your symptoms.  Adjust your taper rate and schedule based on your symptoms.  If you need help with the math, you can use a tool, but use it wisely - e.g. recalculate your reductions on a monthly or more frequent basis if needed.

 

I hope the above makes sense.  If not, please let me know.  Libertas

 

Thanks Libertas. I was just thinking the same thing. I am now noticing there are several Jim Hawk App approaches and other spreadsheet approaches. I have been looking for that simple computer program to tell me what to do but I believe Dr. Ashton said it has to be a symptom based taper with the patient in control. I will have to reflect on all of this.

I would sit tight on .5mgs for a few months if necessary. This is your first attempt, no need to push. And I agree with no crossover. When you resume use a dlmt and take it slow, maybe 6 months or so. Good luck!!

Oh, John123.  I am so glad I read your post as I, too, am doing Jim Hawk's plan and I totally missed that about the attenuated ending.  Well, to be honest, I do remember reading it, but I was so lost it didn't sink in.  I did what you did, too, with the percentage as I got down to 10 mg and before I had my 'relapse,' if you will.  I did not realize the 1.5 mg every 14 days continued to go up in percent.  Duh!  So, the last 14 days getting down to 10 mg, I was at 14.28%. 

 

After I resumed my DLMT on October 1, I kept changing up my plan so I'd stay at a 5% cut, for the most part.  But, I am going to try this attenuated plan for my last 10 mg that I will resume after my trip.  But, like you, I'm debating on the percentage instead even though it would take 449 days at 5%. Hmmm?  Definitely, after all this time, should have gone with the percentage, the gentler way. I'm finally getting the hang of it on the last lap. 

 

All the best to you as you continue your journey and thanks again. 

Sounds good CA girl.

Hi John123,

 

Let me acknowledge that the received wisdom is that tapering using Ashton is the smart approach.

 

Here’s my experience though as a ‘low dose, less than a year’ user.

 

I was on 0.5mg Clonazepam for 7 months. I had no idea about Ashton when I tapered and you can see from my signature that I came off in a month. I think it would have been 10+ months if I’d followed the programme. 16 months later I feel that I’m at the tail end of this process. I’ve been feeling better since M8.

 

When I see posts saying that people are updosing during their taper or remaining at their current level due to symptom uptick my heart sinks for them. It does so because, as I see it, a wave or a window is a random event in this process which can come at any time and doesn’t necessarily relate to the most recent actions. For example, if someone gets a wave when they have just tapered from 0.2mg to 0.18mg they may conclude that it’s because they have tapered too fast and they they need to updose back to 0.2mg and then if it continues they may want to go up again etc. But, given that I get waves and windows and I’m not taking anything, where is the evidence that the wave or window is not just a coincidence of timing? Also, I’ve not seen any concrete evidence that updosing is a solution to a wave; quite the contrary from what I read on BB.

 

Anyway, my main point is this: regardless of whether I was having a wave or a window, a really shit day or a medium shit day, an okay day or a good day, I knew that it was recovery. I had no additional worry about whether it was the last 10% or the one before or whether I should slow it down or go back up again. I was off the drugs and there was no debate. This was mentally very helpful to me. I was already a long-term user at 7 months. I didn’t want to be a long-term user at 17+ months which is what I would have been if I had tapered as per Ashton @10% very two weeks.

 

I am not recommending this approach, but neither am I denigrating it. In fact, it is not going against Ashton because she does say that those on lower doses for less than a year (as I was) can taper more rapidly (whatever that is). That is for each individual to decide as they see fit. However, I am very glad that I stopped putting this poison inside me at the earliest opportunity.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

Best wishes

 

G

 

 

Hi John123,

 

Let me acknowledge that the received wisdom is that tapering using Ashton is the smart approach.

 

Here’s my experience though.

 

I was on 0.5mg Clonazepam for 7 months. I had no idea about Ashton when I tapered and you can see from my signature that I came off in a month. I think it would have been 10 months if I’d followed the programme. 16 months later I feel that I’m at the tail end of this process. I’ve been feeling better since M8.

 

When I see posts saying that people are updosing during their taper or remaining at their current level due to symptom uptick my heart sinks for them. It does so because, as I see it, a wave or a window is a random event in this process which can come at any time so, for example, if someone gets a wave when they have tapered from 0.2mg to 0.18mg they may conclude that they need to updose back to 0.2mg and then if it continues they may want to go up again etc. I’ve not seen any concrete evidence that updosing is a solution to a wave; quite the contrary from what I read on BB.

 

Anyway, my main point is this: regardless of whether I was having a wave or a window, a really shit day or a medium shit day, an okay day or a good day, I knew that it was recovery. I had no additional worry about whether it was the last 10% or the one before or whether I should slow it down or go back up again. I was off the drugs and there was no debate. This was very helpful to me. I was a long-term user at 7 months. I didn’t want to be a long-term user at 17 months which is what I would have been if I had tapered as Ashton suggests.

 

I am not recommending this approach but neither am I denigrating it. That is for each individual to decide as they see fit. However, I am very glad that I stopped putting this poison inside me at the earliest opportunity.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

Best wishes

 

G

 

You make some good points, however in his example, it seems that he was cutting too quick at the start, therefore holding provides a good possibility of stabilizing. Getting the taper right the first time is key. For folks who are languishing for months/years I agree they have to push thru or its benzos for life.

When I see posts saying that people are updosing during their taper or remaining at their current level due to symptom uptick my heart sinks for them. It does so because, as I see it, a wave or a window is a random event in this process which can come at any time so, for example, if someone gets a wave when they have tapered from 0.2mg to 0.18mg they may conclude that they need to updose back to 0.2mg and then if it continues they may want to go up again etc. I’ve not seen any concrete evidence that updosing is a solution to a wave; quite the contrary from what I read on BB.

 

I'm sorry for breaking into this thread but I find this statement very interesting, I'd never considered this point before, at least in respect to tapering. I quit cold turkey and the waxing and waning of symptoms had nothing to do with anything I did or didn't do, I wonder if we give symptoms too much power over our decisions.

 

Don't get me wrong, I fully support tapering and feel it needs to be patient driven, but this is an interesting point.

 

 

 

When I see posts saying that people are updosing during their taper or remaining at their current level due to symptom uptick my heart sinks for them. It does so because, as I see it, a wave or a window is a random event in this process which can come at any time so, for example, if someone gets a wave when they have tapered from 0.2mg to 0.18mg they may conclude that they need to updose back to 0.2mg and then if it continues they may want to go up again etc. I’ve not seen any concrete evidence that updosing is a solution to a wave; quite the contrary from what I read on BB.

 

I'm sorry for breaking into this thread but I find this statement very interesting, I'd never considered this point before, at least in respect to tapering. I quit cold turkey and the waxing and waning of symptoms had nothing to do with anything I did or didn't do, I wonder if we give symptoms too much power over our decisions.

 

Don't get me wrong, I fully support tapering and feel it needs to be patient driven, but this is an interesting point.

Yeah, its one of the first things I try to determine when looking at someones situation with regards to what might be their best path..

I guess, deep/entrenched SX vs the more volatile/fluctuating SX.. -To be simplistic...

Tapering method has a bit of a bearing on this too though, -ie. a chunky pill split as opposed to a micro taper, -as does history, other meds, and well, so many things...

The trick is to learn and know our own stories and paths.. imo.. Usually born from some trial and error, and a good diary...

 

 

When I see posts saying that people are updosing during their taper or remaining at their current level due to symptom uptick my heart sinks for them. It does so because, as I see it, a wave or a window is a random event in this process which can come at any time so, for example, if someone gets a wave when they have tapered from 0.2mg to 0.18mg they may conclude that they need to updose back to 0.2mg and then if it continues they may want to go up again etc. I’ve not seen any concrete evidence that updosing is a solution to a wave; quite the contrary from what I read on BB.

 

I'm sorry for breaking into this thread but I find this statement very interesting, I'd never considered this point before, at least in respect to tapering. I quit cold turkey and the waxing and waning of symptoms had nothing to do with anything I did or didn't do, I wonder if we give symptoms too much power over our decisions.

 

Don't get me wrong, I fully support tapering and feel it needs to be patient driven, but this is an interesting point.

Yeah, its one of the first things I try to determine when looking at someones situation with regards to what might be their best path..

I guess, deep/entrenched SX vs the more volatile/fluctuating SX.. -To be simplistic...

Tapering method has a bit of a bearing on this too though, -ie. a chunky pill split as opposed to a micro taper, -as does history, other meds, and well, so many things...

The trick is to learn and know our own stories and paths.. imo.. Usually born from some trial and error, and a good diary...

 

You're so right, so many variables, why can't it just be simple, black and white? 

When I see posts saying that people are updosing during their taper or remaining at their current level due to symptom uptick my heart sinks for them. It does so because, as I see it, a wave or a window is a random event in this process which can come at any time so, for example, if someone gets a wave when they have tapered from 0.2mg to 0.18mg they may conclude that they need to updose back to 0.2mg and then if it continues they may want to go up again etc. I’ve not seen any concrete evidence that updosing is a solution to a wave; quite the contrary from what I read on BB.

 

I'm sorry for breaking into this thread but I find this statement very interesting, I'd never considered this point before, at least in respect to tapering. I quit cold turkey and the waxing and waning of symptoms had nothing to do with anything I did or didn't do, I wonder if we give symptoms too much power over our decisions.

 

Don't get me wrong, I fully support tapering and feel it needs to be patient driven, but this is an interesting point.

Yeah, its one of the first things I try to determine when looking at someones situation with regards to what might be their best path..

I guess, deep/entrenched SX vs the more volatile/fluctuating SX.. -To be simplistic...

Tapering method has a bit of a bearing on this too though, -ie. a chunky pill split as opposed to a micro taper, -as does history, other meds, and well, so many things...

The trick is to learn and know our own stories and paths.. imo.. Usually born from some trial and error, and a good diary...

 

You're so right, so many variables, why can't it just be simple, black and white? 

A rhetorical question I imagine, -but to answer...

I think its very easy to forget the true complexity of the human body and its second to second processes..

Ummm.. like what has to happen to simply shoo a fly away, or the chemistry behind a smile.. -All that happens as we wake and sleep, or digest/convert a meal... Its truly mind boggling, and then we throw in a “bulldozer” of a medication that does not discriminate as to what it flattens to the ground...

Perhaps its a true miracle that we heal at all, but our bodies are pretty amazing to say the least...!!

 

Anyways, just my quick speculation (blurt).. fwiw..