Author Topic: New informed consent forms in Ohio  (Read 746 times)

[Buddie]

Re: New informed consent forms in Ohio
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2019, 01:52:08 am »
These forms are a ruse. They're intended to paper over the cracks in the status quo: not to change it, but to maintain it. In fact, they make the situation worse. They will be used against the patient, not against the doctors or the drug companies.


With these forms, the doctors are in effect saying this:
You [...] now read about all the many dangers and horrible side-effects of these drugs.
Do you still want to take them?
Check yes or no, and then sign here (so our lawyers will [...] this when you sue us).


And here's how most patients, in effect, will respond to the doctors:
You are also aware of all the dangers and side-effects of these drugs,
but you still choose to prescribe them.
So I guess you don't really think the risk is that great.
And you know a lot more about medicine than I know.
So I guess it will be ok to take them.


Maybe it's not the patients who should be signing these forms. Maybe it's the doctors.


Most or all of these warnings about the dangers of these drugs are already contained in the package inserts, and yet patients continue to use these drugs, because they trust their doctors. Patients waiting to see their doctors for anxiety and depression are seldom in the right mental, emotional, or educational state to assume responsibility for "choosing" to use these drugs. They are there because the doctors [...] expertise that the patients lack. This does not make them babbling idiots. This just makes them computer programmers or engineers or accountants or project managers or musicians rather than medical doctors.

These so-called informed consent forms attempt to shift responsibility away from the doctors, and onto the patients. Just imagine how and where such consent forms will be used.  Imagine that some patients [...] been harmed by these drugs, and they manage to find some lawyer willing to sue the prescribing doctors for malpractice. What do you suppose the doctors will produce in their defense? These informed consent forms, of course. Their lawyers will say this:

You see? These patients were told about all the dangers, and still they freely and knowingly consented to taking these drugs.
 
And then, to the jury, the lawyers will make some contemptible remark along these lines:

.. if you were required to read and sign that you are okay with the addictive dangers of benzos, would you [...] taken them? If you would [...] then you deserve to be here.

There is no conceivable way these informed consents could ever be used by the injured patients against the prescribing doctors. It's all the other way around. It's all designed to protect the doctors - who are actually making the decisions about the appropriate treatment, because they are the ones with the medical expertise. Don't ever let yourself believe that any form drafted by doctors (and their lawyers) is intended to protect the patients. That is never the case.

When some very intelligent and accomplished non-babbling-idiot Nobel laureate patient comes in to tell the doctor about their depression and anxiety, their insomnia, their thoughts of self-harm, their obsessional thinking, their impaired mental functioning, their rages and crying fits - is that actually the right time for the doctor to toss a pile of legal documents in front of them and ask them to decide whether or not they want to use this or that medication? There seems to be some disagreement about that here.

We've seen all this before, in the area of workplace injuries. Before the present workers' compensation system, people injured on the job were routinely barred from monetary compensation on the grounds that they consented to working there, knowing the dangers. They assumed the risk of injury. Before being hired, they would often be required to sign forms acknowledging the risks of the job and assuming full responsibility for these risks. After all, they were responsible adults, and not babbling idiots, so how could they say that the employer was to blame? And yada yada yada, on and on.

It was all nonsense, of course, because we were dealing with people who would not be hired anywhere, by anyone, unless they consented to the risk of workplace injury. That was the informed consent of the American workplace back then, before the New Deal replaced all that with workers compensation.

I'm not someone who always looks for some new legal regulation to solve every new problem. I usually prefer to allow consenting adults to make their own arrangements with each other, whether in the boardroom or the bedroom. But there are situations where people are not actually able to protect themselves properly, where they need legal regulations to protect them. This is especially true of people who are debilitated physically, mentally, and emotionally, and who are being mistreated by someone who has a fiduciary responsibility towards them. The law needs to step in here. The FDA and other "consumer protection" agencies (what a joke!) need to be called to task for their failure to protect the patients. These informed consent forms are just a diversion.

And again, we need to ask the doctors who give these warnings to their patients: if these drugs [...] all these risks, why are you still prescribing them?
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: New informed consent forms in Ohio
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2019, 01:56:54 am »
Excellent points, Red.  :thumbsup:
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: New informed consent forms in Ohio
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2019, 03:40:30 am »
@ Red, yes, -well presented, and an important issue/aspect, imo..
-may my poor brain aspire to such future heights.. lol

***
Written from the perspective of my particular journey..

This idiot actually knew the risks, or perhaps more the problems, but arrogantly, my prior experience with what limited meds I had had in life, -was that they did nothing “Noticeable” anyways... (outside of a theatre/ER type setting)

Seriously, I used to laugh to myself at people taking some sort of “pain med” to get high recreationally..!!  :(

Looking back these 10yrs..  Its very clear to me that the moments that impacted my decisions as to the dangers of these serious meds, was when a Dr that I had a “trusting” relationship with, developed over time, made mention of it.. It was often a way too casual comment too, and not really “news” to me, -So yeah, I had to be open to hearing it, I guess...

Sadly, in most situations it seems, a TRUE Dr/Patient relationship is not part of the current model...
-To say the least..!!
And the higher up one goes the worse it can get, -for so many reasons beyond the Dr themselves, more the environ within which they work..
Asides a private trauma team from Germany, my best, -and it has been good, Doctoring has come from my “Family” Dr, a GP...  She has walked beside me in many ways... Available time, and perhaps not such a singular modality of experience..??

Sorry, probs a bit off track (my speciality), But perhaps as I felt Red alludes to, this might be more a modern society/economic/liability issue..  -And I best not go there..!!
:)
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: New informed consent forms in Ohio
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2019, 07:25:47 am »

Don't ever let yourself believe that any form drafted by doctors (and their lawyers) is intended to protect the patients. That is never the case.

And again, we need to ask the doctors who give these warnings to their patients: if these drugs [...] all these risks, why are you still prescribing them?

Thanks [...]....you nailed it IMO.  :thumbsup:
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: New informed consent forms in Ohio
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2019, 02:02:37 pm »
I agree with both sides of this discussion.  What now? 

People on this forum [...] always complained about the fact they were not given the opportunity of informed consent.  Now that [...] just mentioned she was finally given this opportunity, people are shooting down her optimism that informed consent will only protect and benefit the prescribing doctors.

For five years I [...] read hundreds of posts from members bemoaning NO INFORMED CONSENT.  Has everyone who is agreeing with [...] always believed informed consent was bullshit?  I am not disagreeing with anything [...] has said.  I just wonder now if there is any solution at all to this problem—unless the solution is, well, just stop prescribing these meds.  Yeah, that’s gonna happen.

So is the solution that there is none?

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: New informed consent forms in Ohio
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2019, 02:08:57 pm »
Of course these forms are a ruse and in the best interest of doctors. I never denied it. But please don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Each of you must ask yourself if you read five pages that talk about the dangers of these drugs would you ever [...] popped one?

If the informed consent documents just help one person out of a thousand, they are well worth it. Of course this is just a start and we all [...] a long way to go as do doctors, hospital systems and the FDA. And Big Pharma.

Speaking of which, has it ever occurred to you that since this forum is the go to place for benzo tapering support and is very popular among us, you must realize that pharma knows all about it and my guess doesn’t approve. They don’t want a public face from the pain people suffer because of benzos. Colin is no match for the myriad of lawyers and billions if dollars. While Colin has done us all a tremendous favor with his time and money, if they put the squeeze on him and threaten him with legal action, how long will he fight this and instead say it’s not worth it? Just like so many other sites [...] disappeared. Pharma doesn’t [...] to win, just pile  tons of paperwork until he or we are simply out lawyered. Putting disclaimers in won’t do the trick.

Pharma can’t fight a simple taper plan or even a dry micro taper.  But if you change the chemistry via vodka or PG, they may [...] a point. I honestly worry about the future here and am glad I got so much help when needed. I’m off and don’t need the help anymore. As you know the health care system in America is a [...] that is run by Pharma. Sad but true.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 02:16:41 pm by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: New informed consent forms in Ohio
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2019, 04:21:34 am »
Idk..?? -I, myself, just responded to a (1, one) post within the thread..
:)

Its not like I ever sat in a Drs office and discussed the pros n cons of starting a psych med... -I “woke up” in the trenches... Thus I was cautious with what aspects I mentioned..  Mine was more a race against dependancy.. -An epic fail..!!

But I keep coming back to why, if the Drs are the prescribing experts, with the final yay or nay decision, why is it coming back on the patient to decide, -consent to harm or not.. -A simplistic view, im sure...

:)

Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: New informed consent forms in Ohio
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2019, 04:34:48 am »

But I keep coming back to why, if the Drs are the prescribing experts, with the final yay or nay decision, why is it coming back on the patient to decide, -consent to harm or not.. -A simplistic view, im sure...

:)

Precisely. Its just a means of having it "both ways"... either way the patient end up being the "responsible party".
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: New informed consent forms in Ohio
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2019, 08:15:59 am »
The bigger issue is that the reality is that doctors will likely continue to poo-poo the dangers. How else are they going to get people to take the stuff they are prescribing?

I heard "I'm not worried about the with YOU" when I asked my doctor about benzos causing problems and when I asked about taking PPI's long term- "The reason why they say you should only take them for two weeks is because they don't want patients diagnosing themselves" which I later found out is utter BS, PPIs can cause huge issues if taken long term.

TRUE informed consent involves the PRESCRIBING DOCTOR VERBALLY WARNING their patients of the dangers of said drugs. Not handing them a sheet of paper to sign and then downplaying the dangers when asked for clarification.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: New informed consent forms in Ohio
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2019, 09:36:35 am »
The bigger issue is that the reality is that doctors will likely continue to poo-poo the dangers. How else are they going to get people to take the stuff they are prescribing?

I heard "I'm not worried about the with YOU" when I asked my doctor about benzos causing problems and when I asked about taking PPI's long term- "The reason why they say you should only take them for two weeks is because they don't want patients diagnosing themselves" which I later found out is utter BS, PPIs can cause huge issues if taken long term.

TRUE informed consent involves the PRESCRIBING DOCTOR VERBALLY WARNING their patients of the dangers of said drugs. Not handing them a sheet of paper to sign and then downplaying the dangers when asked for clarification.

 :thumbsup:
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.