Paradoxical Effect - time to jump or make larger/faster cuts?

Hi Folks,

 

I'm working my way off of Valium, see sig or intro thread for more details if interested.  Long story short, i'm down from 3.5mg liquid valium (V) down to 1.26mg as of today.  Twice daily dose equal split so this morning i took .58mg and this evening i will take another .58mg.  The trip down hasn't been great as i've been on this stuff for some time now which I'd say negates the relatively small dose.  things started to get more difficult once i got to about 2 mg per day.  Most common symptoms i've had to deal with are depression, anxiety, fear of death an it's inevitability and fear of others close to me dying, DR, cog fog, insomnia, cold/chills, chest tightness, muscle tightness. 

 

Anyway, i'm down to 1.26mg V now and the strange thing is I generally feel good when i wake up but feel worse about 2 hours after i dose the V in the morning and night (also on prozac at 12.5mg daily once morning dose).  I'm afraid to jump but it also feels that i'm suffering from a paradoxical effect at this point.  Does it make sense to jump now, make larger cuts quicker, slow it down and hold as i've tapered somewhat quickly (65% decrease in 4 months) and maybe it's just catching up to me?  Any thoughts are most appreciated.  thanks all!

 

M

Omg, im so sorry you are in this particular difficult position! Its a very hard call. I started having paradoxical effects only 1 month after being valium so did a super fast drop like 75% in 1 month before slowed down as wd was way too strong to bear. Anyway i kept getting the same paradoxical effects so i pushed extremly hard to zero. See my sig for taper schedule.

 

I heard ppl on ssri can have strange effect from benzo, maybe why we both got hit in this regards.

 

Giving that you are still on Prozac, it might be easier if you taper faster for the rest v. I saw some ppl had good results using ssri help with benzo wd.

You probably feel worse after two hours because part of the valium is metabolized into temazepam and it's half life is shorter.

 

I really doubt anyone is experiencing paradoxical effects at lower doses if they were fine at higher ones.

 

Tapering faster is probably not the best of ideas unless you can handle it.

You probably feel worse after two hours because part of the valium is metabolized into temazepam and it's half life is shorter.

 

I really doubt anyone is experiencing paradoxical effects at lower doses if they were fine at higher ones.

 

Tapering faster is probably not the best of ideas unless you can handle it.

 

Appreciate the response.  I agree on your assessment that it's likely not paradoxical, though it is quite strange.  I didn't know temazepam was a metabolite of the drug, seems there are 3 - nordiazepam, temazepam, and oxazepam.  i thought nor was the only one, guess not. 

 

It looks like we're on the same boat with Valium, though you are ahead of me by a bit.  Have you been steady at .01mg decrease per day then?

You probably feel worse after two hours because part of the valium is metabolized into temazepam and it's half life is shorter.

 

I really doubt anyone is experiencing paradoxical effects at lower doses if they were fine at higher ones.

 

Tapering faster is probably not the best of ideas unless you can handle it.

 

Appreciate the response.  I agree on your assessment that it's likely not paradoxical, though it is quite strange.  I didn't know temazepam was a metabolite of the drug, seems there are 3 - nordiazepam, temazepam, and oxazepam.  i thought nor was the only one, guess not. 

 

It looks like we're on the same boat with Valium, though you are ahead of me by a bit.  Have you been steady at .01mg decrease per day then?

 

I feel worse sometimes and then feel better sometimes it makes no sense which leads me to think it's uneven dosing or windows and waves.

 

About 50 to 60 percent of diazepem is metabolized into nordiazepam, the rest will be temazepam, both of those are partially directly eliminated with the majority of each being turned into oxazepam which will be metabolized last.

 

Mmm I haven't really been doing a daily reduction, sometimes I do a 0.1 a week or every ten days or so. I am at 0.6 as of yesterday, feeling a bit rough today but I think that's moreso related to not sleeping much last night.

 

Can't really say for sure if I'm stable but I have definitely felt worse. I think the best thing to do is accept there is no stable throughout this as if we think there is puts the brakes on the taper while we look for it. There definitely is tapering too fast though.

 

I've been trying to get cardio in every day though as soon as I wake up.

 

People talk about Glutamate being a scary thing and too much is definitely damaging but it is also the precursor to how gaba is produced, exercise causes the brain to turn a percentage of glutamate to gaba hence why so many people benefit from it that have anxiety and depression. I think if you can exercise at all that will help contribute to feeling more stable. If there is such a thing.

 

It's at least healthy for you and helps form routine, it sucks starting out if you haven't been able to for awhile but I think that it's the biggest help we can have.

@[ H...]

 

Funny you mention exercise, I just got back from running a 5k at the gym...well, running most of it

 

You sound exactly like me.  i'm getting to the point where i feel good sometimes then it just turns to sh1t.  As you state, it must be windows and waves.  Today i felt good upon waking then from about 11am to 4pm i just felt bad.  I could have been worse and that's what scares me about just jumping off now.  I guess i'll just keep grinding along reducing at .02mg per day (i have the liquid version by Roxane), that will take me to 0 in less than 2 months. 

 

I've also stopped drinking almost entirely.  It seems if i have more than a couple things go real bad for me the next week or so.

 

I appreciate the feedback today man, it helped quite a bit!

 

@ Hamburgertime

 

Funny you mention exercise, I just got back from running a 5k at the gym...well, running most of it

 

You sound exactly like me.  i'm getting to the point where i feel good sometimes then it just turns to sh1t.  As you state, it must be windows and waves.  Today i felt good upon waking then from about 11am to 4pm i just felt bad.  I could have been worse and that's what scares me about just jumping off now.  I guess i'll just keep grinding along reducing at .02mg per day (i have the liquid version by Roxane), that will take me to 0 in less than 2 months. 

 

I've also stopped drinking almost entirely.  It seems if i have more than a couple things go real bad for me the next week or so.

 

I appreciate the feedback today man, it helped quite a bit!

 

Do you feel decent after exercise? Or not much different? The ups and downs are irritating that's for sure. I'd taper long if I were you, I'm considering going to 0.5 holding for a week or two and jumping like Ashton says - after Christmas.

 

No alcohol is the best move, I won't drink again, ever. It's done nothing but cause issues in my life and not worth dealing with more of this garbage again.

 

After exercise is really hit or miss.  Sometimes it seems to stir things up in the CNS so i feel some withdraw type symptoms come on which subside after an hour or 2 mostly. Others times i feel as good as one can when coming off this shit.  I feel best during the exercise itself.    If i haven't had enough food/carbs and do a run I feel hypoglycemic pretty quickly if i'm running and not jogging , say 7 mph on treadmill or more.  That isn't normal for me as i used to do intermittent fasting and workout fasted.  Can't do that now strangely due to the withdraw.

 

No alcohol is definitely better but i do get bored pretty quickly without it.  full on sober for a month as of Monday.

 

As far as jumping at .5, i'd love to do that but i'll probably ride it all the way down to 0.  .5 -> .48 -> .46....0  Seems like a hell of a drop.  Maybe it's just a matter of ripping the bandaid off, who knows.  my patience is wearing with the taper and i've read true healing in the brain doesn't begin until the drug is out of the system so the taper itself feels like death by a thousand cuts sometimes.

Oh I definitely feel best during exercise too and sometimes after for awhile. I feel like I get hypoglycemic fast too during exercise so I have some banana/strawberry drink during cardio I can definitely feel it picking me up quick.

 

I haven't had booze in 4 months, I'd say I do miss having a drink but I miss being functional more and not dealing with this garbage so I can live without it if I can live at all.

 

I may taper all the way down too but I'll see I'm so tired of cutting up pills.

The same happened me. The benzos worked well for my anxiety until I suddenly got paradoxical reactions after taking it. I had to do a very rapid taper (almost CT), as I couldn't take the benzo no more.

 

Cant take the benzo, and can't live without the benzo - It's a pure hell.

 

Do you get paradoxical reactions every time after taking your dose from now?

The same happened me. The benzos worked well for my anxiety until I suddenly got paradoxical reactions after taking it. I had to do a very rapid taper (almost CT), as I couldn't take the benzo no more.

 

Cant take the benzo, and can't live without the benzo - It's a pure hell.

 

Do you get paradoxical reactions every time after taking your dose from now?

 

Hi Camela.  Perhaps paradoxical is the wrong term.  It's more like dosing the valium can bring out w/d symptoms as opposed to reducing or delaying them.

Hey meth, I read this whole thread between you guys and would definitely agree that's a tough call.

Months ago I came across a quote from Cant that I saved because it just seemed to be something I had thought about but had never been able to state it so clearly, this is just a thought for you to consider

Cant on slowing down towards the end.....

 

"It wasnt realy intensity levels that made me slow right down at the last, though there sure were moments, It was my intent to cushion the point where my body was transitioning onto its own chemistry "

 

Mary 💜

Hi Folks,

 

I'm working my way off of Valium, see sig or intro thread for more details if interested.  Long story short, i'm down from 3.5mg liquid valium (V) down to 1.26mg as of today.  Twice daily dose equal split so this morning i took .58mg and this evening i will take another .58mg.  The trip down hasn't been great as i've been on this stuff for some time now which I'd say negates the relatively small dose.  things started to get more difficult once i got to about 2 mg per day.  Most common symptoms i've had to deal with are depression, anxiety, fear of death an it's inevitability and fear of others close to me dying, DR, cog fog, insomnia, cold/chills, chest tightness, muscle tightness. 

 

Anyway, i'm down to 1.26mg V now and the strange thing is I generally feel good when i wake up but feel worse about 2 hours after i dose the V in the morning and night (also on prozac at 12.5mg daily once morning dose).  I'm afraid to jump but it also feels that i'm suffering from a paradoxical effect at this point.  Does it make sense to jump now, make larger cuts quicker, slow it down and hold as i've tapered somewhat quickly (65% decrease in 4 months) and maybe it's just catching up to me?  Any thoughts are most appreciated.  thanks all!

 

M

Hi Methusela,

I will never tell you what to do, but know if I were in your shoes what I would do!  I would not rock the boat by jumping off at your dose.  Personally, I was told to quit at 2.5 Chlordiapoxide which was the equivalent to .80 Valium and I crashed hard!  Not just physically, but mentally!  I could not think straight at all and only saw one way out! My brain was telling me this, but I know now it was the drugs causing me to think that way! I suffer from anxiety yes, but am generally a very happy, easy going person.  I was not me, at ALL!  My family and friends were all shocked I was thinking the way I was cause it was so out of character, but that is how acute I was!  My heart was beating out of my chest, my tremors were unbearable, I couldn't stop the looping thoughts, panicing and crying!  And then I got help and had to stabilize on 1.5 mg of V for a month.  All the crazy thinking went away!  Many of my symptoms stayed but became less severe.  I was finally fit to taper.  And I'm telling you, no way would I ever have wanted to rush or try jumping too early for fear of feeling like how I felt.  I know how badly you want to be off or to speed things up, but you don't want to push your system so much that you have to updose or to the point of no return where the rest of your taper is torture, all the time.  Everyone's body is different, and maybe yours would be able to handle speeding up or jumping, but that was one piece of advice I heeded to.  To take it slow. It is a marathon, not a sprint!  Today is my first day free of benzos!  I was luckily able to keep a steady 10% decrease every two weeks.  I withdrew .01 mg a day, like you!  It was still rough, but I kept my pattern going and I think that was what allowed me to get through it so consistently. That saying, if it ain't broke...worked for me.  Slow and steady helped me win my race.  Just my 2 cents!  Best of luck whichever way you go! ❤

You probably feel worse after two hours because part of the valium is metabolized into temazepam and it's half life is shorter.

 

I really doubt anyone is experiencing paradoxical effects at lower doses if they were fine at higher ones.

 

Tapering faster is probably not the best of ideas unless you can handle it.

 

Agreed ^^^

For those of you down to a low dose...

I’m currently at 1.2mgs.

How fast are you all micro tapering?

I’m currently doing .01mg per day. At this rate I’ll be done 4 months. Wondering if I should speed it up? Are you guys going to jump at a certain dose or take it all the way to 0?

 

Thanks for chiming in everyone! 

 

I believe i will go with the consensus and continue to taper @ .02mg per day.  I hit the 1mg mark/milestone on Friday so i'll likely hold there until Jan 1 then finish off the taper in 30-50 days hopefully.  i haven't held for any longer than a few days since i started the taper so hoping that brings things back to some sort of equilibrium to help get me to the finish line.

 

M

While Valium has a long half life, it has a short duration of action, which may be one reason you’re feeling this way. I was paradoxical to my klonopin and wanted off badly but I did a very slow taper anyway. It was worth it as my tiny little jump was a non event.