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Who here had an exercise induced set back?


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All,

 

Nov3 brought to my attnention that he and some members felt fine for quite some time an dthen had a full blown set back brought on only my exercising.

 

I am not talking about a wave where you felt shitty for a week, I mean you went from a decent baseline to a much lower baseline from which it took months to recover or from which you never recovered.

 

If this describes you, please post here.  I would rather a post so people will know about what happened to others, but if this is a sensitive topic for you send me a PM. Either way, describe EXACTLY what happened, and your exact med history.  Do not leave anything out, smoking, supplements, anything you did before and after your major change in baseline.

 

Thank you, in advance, for the information. 

 

ramcon1

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Ativan 1 year.

Pretty shit for 2 years after, but functional. Mostly physical pain and sensitivity. Not many brain symptoms.

 

About a month or 2 prior to my 2 year benzo anniversary I started hitting the gym hard.

Daily heavy lifting, daily cardio, daily sauna sessions. I wanted to get my body and mind back to feeling sharp. I felt I was steadily recovering from benzos and feeling pretty decent, but wanted to push it back to 100. It felt damn good at first.

 

About two weeks after the (nearly) daily exercise routine, I started getting waves of this really weird, dizzy, light-headedness. I had random bouts of dysautonomia for the 2 years since benzos, but never as constant and persistent as this felt. I also began noticing some new pains that gradually appeared with the new intense dysautonomia. Pains in locations I never had pain.

 

Then after a couple weeks of feeling this way, still pushing myself in the gym, I was driving home from my routine one day and shit snapped. I had the most intense feeling of dysautonomia I have ever had. It feel like my consciousness was slapped by some cosmic force. My whole brain and vision like turned on its side. I couldn't see clear or think clear. I pulled over, nearly wrecked. And called my family to take me to the ER. I thought I was having a stroke.

 

My nervous system continued to act crazy leading up to going to the ER. My chest and head burned. I thought something was seriously wrong; heart attack, stroke, something that was going to kill me... This fueled my panic, which made all the symptoms worse. The light pain I was feeling in my lower abdomen after my work outs became scarily intense and deep. My dysautonomia was worse than I thought was possible. I felt like I would never be the same again. I was sure I would die.

 

In the ER things continued and I kept panicking. On top of all of the absurd nervous system symptoms that overcame me, I likely began to have an actual panic attack too in the fear of what what happening to me. And that, again, just increased symptoms to their max. They gave me IVs of benadryl.

 

I woke up the next day, hardly remembered any of it. But the dysautonomia and new physical pain have remained for the past 5 months now. They're better than they were when I first woke up the morning after the incident. I contemplated dying for the first month. It's better than that now. But it is still debilitating. I also now have major fatigue, extreme chemical sensitivity, and extreme intolerance to temperatures and light. None of which I had prior to the setback.

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Nov3, did you ever have your catecholamines checked, especially norepinephrine? I'm so sorry this happened!! It must have been so scary. The catecholamine lab test covers dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine. Catecholamines get kicked up when we exercise.

 

Did the doctors give any indication as to why this happened? I realize they only treat symptoms, but did anyone have a clue beyond drugs given, etc.?

 

I think this is a very good thread.

 

I remember back in withdrawal, walking and doing yoga, working with weights, thinking that the more exercise, the better my body would heal. I was out walking one day and suddenly felt the left side of my mouth slacken. I was afraid I was having a stroke, and it wasn't too far off from the TIA I'd suffered. It lasted only a couple of seconds, but I looked in a shop window to make certain my face was still symmetrical. It scared the hell out of me. Right then and there, I limited my exercise. I couldn't handle the stress it brought on.

 

Exercise induces increased catecholamine concentrations in athletes. This increase varies depending on the duration, intensity, and type of exercise. Adrenaline and noradrenaline are the main hormones whose levels increase substantially during exercise.

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I’m not 100% sure exercise caused my setback. But as I look back now, it seems probable. Very similar to Nov3.

 

Thinking it could be more of a cortisol issue than glutamate, but who knows?

 

Along with excessive exercise, had some big life stressors going on. Right now, my thinking is could of started NO OH NOO Cycle ...

 

 

In tolerance, in taper, and first 16 months benzo free, I kept increasing my workouts. Was doing 30 minutes light cardio, stretching, light upper body weights. Increased over time to 60 minutes intense cardio.

 

Was at gym, doing cardio, October 2018. Felt odd. Stopped workout. Anxiety - feeling like whole body and brain plugged into electrical socket. Left leg and hip numb.

 

Didn’t sleep 7 days. Hospitalized. Given remeron.

 

 

Have had these symptoms 24/7 now for over year.

 

 

New symptom February of this year - vertigo. Middle February, felt dizzy for a few seconds. Felt dizzy for a few seconds everyday for 2 weeks. February 28, woke up so dizzy - left side of face numb, vision bad. Went to hospital - thought it was stroke. (It was not.)

 

 

Today - extreme protracted symptoms - “anxiety”, cog fog, vertigo, fear. Home and bed bound.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

 

 

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I have been working out. I stretch alot because of muscle pain. My hips and low back hurt. So I do strengthening excercises and i walk. The past few weeks it is getting bad again.  My lower body cramps so bad i can barely walk.  Maybe it is from to mucj excercise.
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Dehytq2,

 

Did your increase in issues coincide withe your change in K brand?  I also try to steretch and walk as much as I can and had a major issue with mirtazapine brand.  I may have a solution if you think you issues could coincide with brand change rather than exercise.

 

Ramcon1

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Hi Rancon,

Yes! When I switched from activis to teva k it got so bad. I had it before from a bad co from x to v. My mucsles cramped everywere and got pins and needles. Went back on k activis and felt i was improving.  Then the switch to teva was bad ugh.

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Dehytq2,

 

I knew it.  I had to switch brands of Remeron/mirtazapine and all hell broke loose.  I have some good news and some bad news.  The good news is I MIGHT have a solution. I have not tested it yet, but you may not need it.

 

I HAD to switch FROM Teva mirt to other brands because Teva stopped making mirtazapine, and I could not tolerate any other brand.

 

Is there a reason you HAD to switch?  Can you get access to Activis and stay on Activis? 

 

In most countries and states in the US you are allowed to choose a pharmacy and specify to that pharmacy the brand you want.  My Dad had the same problem with his Zoloft and when he went back to the brand his body was used to, everything was fine.

 

Ramcon1

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Hi Rancom,

That is what happened.  I never had teva k before. The whole time i have been on k the pills were yellow and now green. It Its awful. Were you ableto switch back? Did you feel netter if you did. I could call other pharmavies and see. I am afraid to fhsnge again because my body is a mess with all these changes

Maybe co slow. What is wrong with these ppl

Ahhh. Are you feeling ok? My m8cles are killing me. I cant really walk it hurts so bad.

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Following. For the past two months I've been working out, quite intense considering how bad my sxs are, and while I'm working out I immediately feel my sxs revving up. I don't know if I should stop, but I was getting very weak phisically and I have become stronger with the exercise. But if the price is going to be to never stabilize then it's not worth it.
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Hi Janice,

I am confused about this too. I am usually revved up every morning when I wake up.  When I exercise , its crazy.  I do ot anyway  because of the pain. I  have to stretch, it helps.

Then I do the strenthening and take short walks. Mentally it helps me. Lately though, I feel like the muscles are rebelling againt it. Its pissing me off. I am pretty sure I have sciatica

Plus benzo muscles. I put something in my plog a while ago. It was by baylissa . They talk about how much is too much.

I Need to go back and read it myself. Lol. I forget what it says. It sucks. I dont now what to do anymore. If it is making you stronger that is good. Maybe just cut back on it. Love Suzy

 

 

.

 

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All,

 

I set this thread as a "poll."  It is my opinion, 100% opinion nothing for which I have an iota of evidence, but it just makes sense to me, that this "uptick" from exercise is the reason exercise is good for healing.

 

I hold the belief, for which there IS a decent amount of evidence, that most of our issues are due to glutamate reception: too many receptors that open too easily that let to much current through.  When you exercise, you raise both serotonin and glutamate, both of which poke those receptors, and as valliumnomore pointed out, sometimes uncomfortably so.  On day that is bad enough to feel bad, but not so bad I will not exercise, when I exercise (just walk a mile or 2 and row on an ergometer for now), I can FEEL my back stiffen.  Then as I cool down and stretch it dissipates.

 

This is pure conjecture, this elevation in glutamate and serotonin will coax those glutamate receptors into submission.

 

That is my theory. 

 

If dozens of you popped up and gave me enough personal experience that you had a true set back, as in "I was at a baseline, and exercise made me worse."  I would rethink that theory.

 

So far, all due respect to Nov3, I have read nothing to dissuade me from my idea.

 

I am 99% certain Dehytq2 and PowerMM had other factors trigger their up tick in issues. 

 

Nov3, you and I need to PM about his.  I respect you and want to know more about your experience.

 

But I guess my point is, valliumnomore, "If I were you," I would keep training at a threshold that "just revs you a bit."  That is actually what I do, and what I intend to resume doing as soon as I am out of this wave.

 

Ramcon1 

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Hi Janice,

I am confused about this too. I am usually revved up every morning when I wake up.  When I exercise , its crazy.  I do ot anyway  because of the pain. I  have to stretch, it helps.

Then I do the strenthening and take short walks. Mentally it helps me. Lately though, I feel like the muscles are rebelling againt it. Its pissing me off. I am pretty sure I have sciatica

Plus benzo muscles. I put something in my plog a while ago. It was by baylissa . They talk about how much is too much.

I Need to go back and read it myself. Lol. I forget what it says. It sucks. I dont now what to do anymore. If it is making you stronger that is good. Maybe just cut back on it. Love Suzy

 

 

.

 

Hi Suzy!

 

I'm not spending much time in the LHSG lately. I think it's a withdrawal thing. I'm depressed and I just don't feel like writing there because I can't write anything that's not depressing, but I love the group and I love you. I'll take a look at your plog later on or tomorrow. You really don't know how to do anything right during this process, honestly. I'm going to scan some docs as my scanner is horrible, and later to the movies with my daughter. I hate it, but I have to go. I can't just park my life forever and this looks like it'll last forever so I might as well get used to it and pretend I don't have a glutamate storm in my head. Love, Janice.

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Oh Janice,

I am so sorry you are feeling that depressed. I have days I dont want to write either.  It must be a wd thing. I just jave no desire to communicate. We are going to get better. Its the wd sx that are making you feel hopeless. I cant even imagine how this will get better but everyone heals. It doesnt feel that way its so long and everyday us hell. I know some ppl have good days and maybe less sx. I have alot and so do you but that is not our fault.  Everyone is different. Read the benzo lies. You can do a search later or tomorrow. Hope you enjoy the movie and time with your daughter. Yoy are in a wave and it will end. Love you Suzy

 

 

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All,

 

I set this thread as a "poll."  It is my opinion, 100% opinion nothing for which I have an iota of evidence, but it just makes sense to me, that this "uptick" from exercise is the reason exercise is good for healing.

 

I hold the belief, for which there IS a decent amount of evidence, that most of our issues are due to glutamate reception: too many receptors that open too easily that let to much current through.  When you exercise, you raise both serotonin and glutamate, both of which poke those receptors, and as valliumnomore pointed out, sometimes uncomfortably so.  On day that is bad enough to feel bad, but not so bad I will not exercise, when I exercise (just walk a mile or 2 and row on an ergometer for now), I can FEEL my back stiffen.  Then as I cool down and stretch it dissipates.

 

This is pure conjecture, this elevation in glutamate and serotonin will coax those glutamate receptors into submission.

 

That is my theory. 

 

If dozens of you popped up and gave me enough personal experience that you had a true set back, as in "I was at a baseline, and exercise made me worse."  I would rethink that theory.

 

So far, all due respect to Nov3, I have read nothing to dissuade me from my idea.

 

I am 99% certain Dehytq2 and PowerMM had other factors trigger their up tick in issues. 

 

Nov3, you and I need to PM about his.  I respect you and want to know more about your experience.

 

But I guess my point is, valliumnomore, "If I were you," I would keep training at a threshold that "just revs you a bit."  That is actually what I do, and what I intend to resume doing as soon as I am out of this wave.

 

Ramcon1

 

Thanks rancom. My workouts Rev me up A LOT. Especially when I do leg work, every three days. I like your theory. Do we have any research to back it up? I guess there isn't, as is common with benzos, but again, I wish it was true.

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Valiumnomore,

 

There is no research I could find.  That does not mean it doesn't exist, but I could not find it.

 

There are some anecdotes about coffee and ginkgo.  A few benzo damaged people believe they reverse their damage by increasing glutamate with coffee and ginkgo.  No papers, but I remember reading posts.  Certainly not gold standard science.

 

But.  In the lithium thread, the visual guide says it will calm you down by slowing release of Ca2+ from the NMDA pore, but down regulate NMDA.  I dug deeper and read the references, and in the reference for the downregulation, the paper said it does that by holding glutamate in the synapse for a bit longer than normal.

 

That, to me, sounds like what should happen when we exercise.  But I have zero proof.

 

I do remember reading about a guy who claims he caused a set back by drinking too much coffee.  "A guy frank too much coffee."  "I cured myself with ginkgo."  I HATE basing anything on, "I remember reading about a guy," what we in science call "n=1" experiments.  That was the main reason I started this thread.  If dozens of people popped up saying I was fine for a year, I started training, and everything went to hell." I would start investigating their stories.

 

So far, it looks like Nov3 is the only one.  Everyone else seems to have had another factor.  PS That does not mean I do not believe Nov3!  If I have learned one thing, it is that anything is possible in anybody because there are sooooooooooooo many variables.  I still believe we have a common illness, and because we have a common illness, common treatments are possible.

 

Hope that helped.

 

My wave is almost broken.  I will hopefully be fine in a few days, and when I am, I will resume light exercise.

 

Ramcon1

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Rancom I think it's great that you opened this thread. We can keep reporting the correlation between our workouts and our symptoms. So here I go. Friday I did workout upper body, no legs which are really bad for my sxs. Saturday and today many sxs as usual because I live in an almost permanent wave, but worse. No workout yesterday and today. I have been eating like a PIG. I found this cycle : workout ramps sxs, next day or two eat like pig. Finally feel better, workout three days a week then again bad sxs revving up and eat like piggy. At least I'm getting stronger and I'm in a healthy weight but I don't need more weight so these hunger pangs are not so great. Can anyone relate?
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valium,

 

I do not think would be productive to post a training/reaction log, except in the "big pictrure," which I think would be VERY productive.  Like "I have been weight training, pushing it a little for 'x' weeks or months and I feel . . . "  That would be fantastic!

 

It is VERY interesting to me that exercise causes a rev up in your symptoms, but eating does not.  To me, exercise will cause a revving that can last last an hour two.  The day ENDS when I have my first calorie, so I eat one meal at 10 pm after my Remeron kicks in.  I do not think I could eat at all if I did not take Remeron, that is how bad eating revs me up, and not just in my gastro.  The act of eating causes a massive glutamate and histamine dump.  Just THINKING about eating used to rev me up as my gastric juices got flowing.  I have trained myself not to think about eating, and even when I am actually eating to minimize the impact. 

 

I am almost afraid to type this because it was a really bad idea, but I did not know any better at the time.

In my last "recovery," when I was having a bad day, I would have 6 oz of hard alcohol before dinner.  That was the only thing at the time that would stop my gastro from dumping glutamate and histamine on me and causing gastric distress and panic.

 

If your life is a permanent wave, you may want to look at what and when you are eating.  Dietary sources of glutamate and histamine liberators, and the act of eating are my biggest triggers by far.  And when I am exercising, it is harder to "not eat," as you said it makes you hungry, but the quality of my days are better.  But I think it is an A then B.  The quality of my days are better, SO I am able to exercise, not I forced myself to exercise on a bad day and it got better.

 

The legs thing makes total sense.  In a healthy proportioned person, legs are over 60% of his muscle mass.  If you think about it, legs are the only muscle group you can train that can make you out of breath, cause aerobic respiration.  You can do bicep curls until your arms fall off and never get out of breath.  The valsalva effect, (breath holing technique)  you might use to get the last rep does not count as out of breath.

 

Maybe we should start a thread on diet and eating?

 

ramcon1

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Hi Rancom! I'm self employed working full time, manage a rented apartment besides my teaching job, raise a teenager with no help, no child support, workout, clean my house and deal with withdrawal. I am not going to bother about eating this or that. If it means slowing down my recovery then so be it. I usually eat very healthy but I take decaf, some sugar and if one day I want a croissant with my coffee I'll absolutely eat it. But thanks for trying  ;)
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Valium,

 

If you are doing all of that, and eating croissants, you are my hero.  I want to be you.  I only meant IF you were noticing major upticks, look at your diet.  I promise you I mean't no offense, and I do not think you can "slow down your recovery" with food, unless you consider alcohol food.  I just meant to avoid upticks in issues.

 

Just like the exercise, I think if you can eat food, it revs you a bit but you can take it, you are helping yourself.  If you van eat anything and don;t feel much at all, you are well on your way to wellness.

 

Please, I promise you I was only looking at ways that might ease your pain, no criticism at all, not even constructive.

 

Ramcon1

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