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Read the Ashton Manual and Supplement


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Why don't more people read the Ashton Manual and the Supplement?? I don't mean read it once and then look for answers in supplements and other drugs. All the information needed is in these two documents. There are no shortcuts. There is no magic supplement. There is no magic drug to ease things along available from your doctor. Remember how you ended up on benzos and why you're trying to get off.

 

The hope that anyone on benzos needs is that you can get off them and a patient led taper getting off them is the best way to go but drawing it out over a longer period than necessary is not doing any good.

 

I was on the floor shaking, unable to sleep, tremors so bad that I couldn't hold a glass of water without spilling it, trouble swallowing food etc etc.  I had a lot of side effects especially at the beginning of my taper but I know now that it would have done no good to slow down "until I felt better" because the best you usually get is feeling "good enough" to keep going which is often very little improvement but I took any improvement at all to a sign to keep going.

Until I hit half of my original benzo dose, I did not experience one window but now I am.

It really is something you just have to get on with.

 

Sure, there are some people who will have lasting damage but wait until it happens instead of imagining the worst. Ashton says that most people will come off of benzos without lasting damage.

 

from the Ashton supplement (2012)

 

Updosing during withdrawal? Some people hit a "sticky patch" during the course of benzodiazepine withdrawal. In many cases, staying on the same dose for a longer period (not more than a few weeks) before resuming the withdrawal schedule allows them to overcome this obstacle. However, increasing the dose until a longed-for plateau of 'stability' arrives is not a good strategy. The truth is that one never 'stabilises' on a given dose of benzodiazepine. The dose may be stable but withdrawal symptoms are not. It is better to grit one's teeth and continue the withdrawal. True recovery cannot really start until the drug is out of the system.

 

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I think the Ashton model is pretty fair for “most” people... -certainly a good place to start a journey into the unknown, but sadly there are a number of us that just dont do well within her parameters...

There may be any number of “extra” factors involved too.. Like other meds and history...

If read with care and an open mind, Ashton generally caters to this within her wording...

 

Square pegs and round holes..

 

 

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I had to do a single updose a year ago when I caught pneumonia and couldn’t get out of a horrible wave that seemed to last forever. It was honestly one of the best taper things I did. Ashton was wrong that you can’t stabilize. I did. She also said you can drink alcohol once in a while. Like can’t said, not everyone fits into her parameters. I also think her Valium taper was too fast for me. If I had followed it today and during my taper I would be miserable and likely a mess and unable to enjoy life. Never mind work which allows me to stay in my home. As it turned out I went much slower and was able to live quite a normal life. Everyone has a different journey and I don’t try and tell others what theirs is...... Ashton is a guideline, not boot camp.
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I never had a single window until I had already cut my dosage to half of what I started at. I cut when I started to feel at all better - generally at 11 days - to get through the first half of my taper. At that point, I experienced my first window and since then, have had a window or at least a lessening of symptoms about 4 days after each cut and then give myself a few days to catch my breath and cut again. That is about 3.5 half lives for Valium. If I had updosed or held when I was above 5 mg, I would probably still be waiting. Ashton addresses this. She says grit your teeth and get on with it.
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Personally O wish I had never read it because then I would have rei stayed earlier and would probably have been ok and back on meds like I had been for 20 years.
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I never had a single window until I had already cut my dosage to half of what I started at. I cut when I started to feel at all better - generally at 11 days - to get through the first half of my taper. At that point, I experienced my first window and since then, have had a window or at least a lessening of symptoms about 4 days after each cut and then give myself a few days to catch my breath and cut again. That is about 3.5 half lives for Valium. If I had updosed or held when I was above 5 mg, I would probably still be waiting. Ashton addresses this. She says grit your teeth and get on with it.

 

 

Ashton was never on the equivalent of 200 mg of Valium, was she? Were any of her patients? For more than a decade? I was able to get off this dose without tremors, trouble swallowing, shaking etc. while Ashton did wonders for us benzo users, last I checked she was not God. And her manual is painfully old. I had an excellent pdoc who tapered just as many patients as she did. If someone writes you have to suffer, why in heavens name would you do this when you don’t have to? Many are against holding, “just get on with it.” Me I’m happy and healthy with only minor annoyances. I never spent a single moment on the floor. SMH.

 

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Old does not mean outdated. It's a way off and it has worked for a lot of people and it a very good starting point.

How on earth does anyone end up on 200mg of valium? You must have been close to comatose. What kind of doctor would ever prescribe that sort of dose? Sounds like malpractice.

What other way is there except moving forward. Nobody heals while on benzos.

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I beg to differ. A slow consistent taper allows for healing, in my opinion. A rapid taper or cold turkey, no....do you go about telling long term members they’re wrong after being on here for just two months?  :o  :o
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Old does not mean outdated. It's a way off and it has worked for a lot of people and it a very good starting point.

How on earth does anyone end up on 200mg of valium? You must have been close to comatose. What kind of doctor would ever prescribe that sort of dose? Sounds like malpractice.

What other way is there except moving forward. Nobody heals while on benzos.

I did heaps of healing while on valium... -The whole point of tapering at the speed that allowed my body to adjust...

I highly doubt that Prof Ashton had my medication situation in mind (or even experienced it in her clinic), when she put together her “GUIDE”, which is fine and to be expected...

 

What I would watch is trying to apply a general guide to many of the situations that end up needing the support of sites like BB (self selecting)... Simply, there is too much variety, and too many “extras”...

A 5 day Hospital Detox has worked for many people too... -Just sayn’...

 

Re.  Excessive high doses of any of these DoD meds, -Its a big wide world out there, “stuff” happens..

 

No biggie, but lets just keep an open mind to variety and individualism's..

:)

 

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Old does not mean outdated. It's a way off and it has worked for a lot of people and it a very good starting point.

How on earth does anyone end up on 200mg of valium? You must have been close to comatose. What kind of doctor would ever prescribe that sort of dose? Sounds like malpractice.

What other way is there except moving forward. Nobody heals while on benzos.

I did heaps of healing while on valium... -The whole point of tapering at the speed that allowed my body to adjust...

I highly doubt that Prof Ashton had my medication situation in mind (or even experienced it in her clinic), when she put together her “GUIDE”, which is fine and to be expected...

 

What I would watch is trying to apply a general guide to many of the situations that end up needing the support of sites like BB (self selecting)... Simply, there is too much variety, and too many “extras”...

A 5 day Hospital Detox has worked for many people too... -Just sayn’...

 

Re.  Excessive high doses of any of these DoD meds, -Its a big wide world out there, “stuff” happens..

 

No biggie, but lets just keep an open mind to variety and individualism's..

:)

 

Thanks can’t..... :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:

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I never said anything about rapid taper or ct - no one would ever advocate that and Ashton didn't either but there is a difference between that and prolonging your suffering. I didn't realize that this forum was only interested in hearing from people who had been here long enough. What is long enough?

Just because I wasn't on BB before doesn't mean I haven't had a valid experience. Trying to shutdown discussion because you don't agree with me is not productive.

I don't intend to be here long term. I looked to BB for information and coping strategies during my taper. I have shared my own experience and how I have coped with tapering.

My goal is to get off benzos as soon as possible - that never included rapid tapering or ct. This strategy is not always comfortable but being on benzos is not comfortable either.

I have been encouraged when I read about those who have just got on with it - no sugar coating of the difficulties but a determination for this to end so they can start their lives benzo free.

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Messedup, Im sorry you feel at odds, -I was just making comment on the more prescriptive aspects of your post... The one size fits all, and the cherry picking of select and more general words of Prof Ashton being applied in quoted isolation to all people in broad brushstrokes...

 

While its obvious that “true” or complete healing from discontinuation simply cant happen till one is off med, Im not so sure that applies to the process in a way that can be dictated as general advice for all that will read it here...

 

Sorry, but I have seen the outcome for some people that push through increasing symptoms in hope that “0mg” will be the magic turning point...

But at the same time, the general message you put forward as to just getting on with it, does and will apply to people too... Its more a who, how, and why type thing, -and that is what we should try to help and support people in determining for themselves...

 

Like I said, -No biggie... My reply isnt meant as an attack, I was just highlighting what is a common problem with select quoting from an authoritative source...

 

That aside, Im sure you have lots to contribute that is of much value here... -Indeed, most of your original post...

 

:)

 

 

 

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Great posts by Cant and Bets.  :thumbsup:

 

 

Why don't more people read the Ashton Manual and the Supplement?? I don't mean read it once and then look for answers in supplements and other drugs. All the information needed is in these two documents. There are no shortcuts. There is no magic supplement. There is no magic drug to ease things along available from your doctor. Remember how you ended up on benzos and why you're trying to get off.

 

The problem I see here is that you're preaching the Ashton Manual, and yet it would appear that you haven't read it very thoroughly yourself.  See below, did you inadvertently miss reading this part?

 

"Reinstatement, updosing

 

A dilemma faced by some people in the process of benzodiazepine withdrawal, or after withdrawal, is what to do if they have intolerable symptoms which do not lessen after many weeks. If they are still taking benzodiazepines, should they increase the dose? If they have already withdrawn, should they reinstate benzodiazepines and start the withdrawal process again? This is a difficult situation which, like all benzodiazepine problems, depends to some degree on the circumstances and the individual, and there are no hard and fast rules.

 

 

 

Sure, there are some people who will have lasting damage but wait until it happens instead of imagining the worst. Ashton says that most people will come off of benzos without lasting damage.

 

It's not about "imagining" the worst or "waiting for it to happen".  It's about harm reduction and concerted efforts made to *avoid* the worst. That's the whole point of the individualized symptom based taper and the existence of the BB forum.

 

 

 

I didn't realize that this forum was only interested in hearing from people who had been here long enough. What is long enough?

Just because I wasn't on BB before doesn't mean I haven't had a valid experience. Trying to shutdown discussion because you don't agree with me is not productive.

 

Well, one of those "long enough" members gave you an enthusiastic thumbs up anyway.  So there's that.

 

IMO, though, yes, I do believe that sometimes the wisest and most productive move is to promptly shut down (prescriptive) "discussion" when it's so misguided, and apt to put people's welfare at risk.  Remember, after all, you didn't start this thread merely to chit chat about your own experience, your goal was to encourage everyone to adopt the one-size-fits all "Grit your teeth and get on with it" approach, right? 

 

I think some abstract/critical thinking always goes a long way.

 

My two cents ... and ditto every point raised by Cant.  :thumbsup: 

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Great posts by Cant and Bets.  :thumbsup:

 

 

Why don't more people read the Ashton Manual and the Supplement?? I don't mean read it once and then look for answers in supplements and other drugs. All the information needed is in these two documents. There are no shortcuts. There is no magic supplement. There is no magic drug to ease things along available from your doctor. Remember how you ended up on benzos and why you're trying to get off.

 

The problem I see here is that you're preaching the Ashton Manual, and yet it would appear that you haven't read it very thoroughly yourself.  See below, did you inadvertently miss reading this part?

 

"Reinstatement, updosing

 

A dilemma faced by some people in the process of benzodiazepine withdrawal, or after withdrawal, is what to do if they have intolerable symptoms which do not lessen after many weeks. If they are still taking benzodiazepines, should they increase the dose? If they have already withdrawn, should they reinstate benzodiazepines and start the withdrawal process again? This is a difficult situation which, like all benzodiazepine problems, depends to some degree on the circumstances and the individual, and there are no hard and fast rules.

 

 

 

Sure, there are some people who will have lasting damage but wait until it happens instead of imagining the worst. Ashton says that most people will come off of benzos without lasting damage.

 

It's not about "imagining" the worst or "waiting for it to happen".  It's about harm reduction and concerted efforts made to *avoid* the worst. That's the whole point of the individualized symptom based taper and the existence of the BB forum.

 

 

 

I didn't realize that this forum was only interested in hearing from people who had been here long enough. What is long enough?

Just because I wasn't on BB before doesn't mean I haven't had a valid experience. Trying to shutdown discussion because you don't agree with me is not productive.

 

Well, one of those "long enough" members gave you an enthusiastic thumbs up anyway.  So there's that.

 

IMO, though, yes, I do believe that sometimes the wisest and most productive move is to promptly shut down (prescriptive) "discussion" when it's so misguided, and apt to put people's welfare at risk.  Remember, after all, you didn't start this thread merely to chit chat about your own experience, your goal was to encourage everyone to adopt the one-size-fits all "Grit your teeth and get on with it" approach, right? 

 

I think some abstract/critical thinking always goes a long way.

 

My two cents ... and ditto every point raised by Cant.  :thumbsup:

 

Exactly, abcd

 

It’s not so much WHAT was said, but how she said it. The OP put off people by her tone...among cherry picking the manual to suit her needs.

 

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Old does not mean outdated. It's a way off and it has worked for a lot of people and it a very good starting point.

How on earth does anyone end up on 200mg of valium? You must have been close to comatose. What kind of doctor would ever prescribe that sort of dose? Sounds like malpractice.

What other way is there except moving forward. Nobody heals while on benzos.

 

It’s impolite at best to question why someone is on a certain dose or other medication. It’s also against forum rules. If you were a nice person, you would congratulate me for getting off my benzos. We are not judgmental here. I can’t tell you how many people were rooting for me and then congratulated me. Since you think people should reread the manual, I suggest you read or reread the forum rules. I worked extremely hard to get off such a high dose and I am very proud of it. So are my many friends here.

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