Author Topic: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception  (Read 2874 times)

[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2020, 10:58:19 am »
Guys I admit I do not get the science to this, altho I pop in now and then to see what some of you say ;)

Question, tho, here the drs. almost always try gabapentin and/or doxepin to help people off.  Does that make sense?
Some use lyrica but of course that more expensive, tho have heard fewer side effects.
Finally, some use Depakeen (sp)?

According to your theories which if any make sense.  Doxepin is AD but not the others...

thx.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2020, 06:55:28 pm »
Hey guys,

Sorry I have been gone for a while.  I have both been busy and in a wave.  I also need to stay focussed, so I am as a rule only going to check in once a week or so.  So if you need neroscience explained, send me a PM.

First luket,

Your question is more appropriate on the SAMe-serotonin thread, but since you asked it here I will answer it here.

Here you go:
https://www.jneurosci.org/content/jneuro/25/23/5488.full.pdf
On paper, it looks good.  Of course if I had a nickel for everything that looked good on paper, I would have a mountain of nickels, but I would (and may once my taper is over) choose Zoloft/sertraline instead of Prozac/fluoxetine because sertraline is available as a liquid, and can be increased VERY slowly using a diabetic syringe.  If you choose to do this, you need to do algebra, so if you need help with algebra send me a PM.

[...],

The policy of BB is not to prescribe anything.  So just like above, "if I were you. . . " gabapentin and especially lyrica/pregabalin are poor choices for us.  They MIGHT make you feel better for a while, but they are the closest thing to reinstating on a benzo you can get, except maybe alcohol.

Doxepin is another story.  My sleep has been extra poor of late, and I have been looking at things to help.  I have been on Remeron/mirtazapine too long and I think it has petered out, so I am looking at alternatives, and doxepin made the top 2.

Here is just a little basic neuroscience:  Serotonin can help reduce NMDA action but it does this by poking NMDA so it can make you feel a bit worse, before you feel better.  I had a supply of Zyprexa/olanzapine to use when I get hysterical.  It is a powerful antihistamine, and very sedating.   I thought it might be a good sleep aid, but it pokes serotonin so it is calming, but also mildly stimulating, so it was a poor choice as a sleep aid for me.  Myself and others have had the same issue with Seroquel/quetiapine, although some find it helpful.  Neither touch GABA or INHIBIT glutamate, so will not interfere with healing.

Silenor/Doxepin is a tricyclic AD with a pretty good receptor profile for sleep.  Lots of antihistamine, moderate anti-adrenergic anti-acetyl-cholinergic, but it has some moderate serotonergic action as well.  So it will poke those NMDA and rev me up a bit.  But again, some find it helpful.
Next on my personal list is a different tricyclic AD Surmontil/trimipramine.  That has a very similar receptor profile to doxepin, but far less serotonergic activity.  It will not “help” me heal as in remodel my receptors, but it may “help” me heal as more often than not I am exhausted from poor sleep. I am going to try it next week.

So if you can tolerate them, Seroquel/quetiapine or Silenor/doxepin might have a positive effect of restructuring glutamate receptors, but beware they could rev you up if you are sensitive.

I will report back on Surmontil/trimipramine

Hope that helped.

“See” you next week.

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2020, 06:39:32 pm »
Hey [...],

Sorry to hear you have been in a wave recently. The lithium idea looks promising, and the idea of downregulating glutamate seems like a worthwhile pursuit. With that being said, I came across a journal article (https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1600-0773.1988.tb01856.x) which finds that chronic lithium administration (4 weeks) reduces GABA receptors in the frontal cortex. I know that we are primarily focused on downregulating NMDA, but would it not be counterproductive to downregulate GABA receptors simultaneously?
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #73 on: January 20, 2020, 08:47:13 pm »
Luket,

I just happened to come by to check out this thread.  I am going to post that I have a boatload of additional reading to do, and if anyone here needs me to look at something, please send me a PM.

That paper was written in 1987.  So it is old.  It is also poorly written.  On one hand I was surprised that after doing some stoichiometry (molar-mass calculations) they did use the equivalent of approximately our target dose of 25-28 mg elemental lithium in a 150 lb human (+/1 appx 25%) they did show a reduction of only 15-20% of GABA receptors in only one specific area of the brain, the prefrontal cortex (the part of the brain that does the most "thinking.")  They went on to say that it had no effect on the hippocampus (limbic/emotional memories) and also the rest of the cortex, but the table shows other wise.  The table showed an 18% reduction in the hippocampus, a 14% reduction in the cortex, and a 2% increase in the hippocampus.

I am not sure if any of that matters to us, and I mean that literally.  I am not sure.  I think that GABA grows easily, and NMDA recedes slowly, and that is the reason for protraction.  Because the paper showed no decrease in the hippocampus, and misstated its effect of the occipital cortex, I personally am not going worry about it too much.

Still, remember, lithium is tricky.  It holds glutamate in the synapse longer so should be stimulating, and this is how it can downregulate NMDA count and function, but also slows the flow of calcium thru the NMDA pore so it is calming.  If 100 people take it, they will have 50 different levels of stimulation versus sedation.  That is why we have to play with microdoses, and see how it "feels."

Good luck, and remember to PM me if you need me.

Hope that helped,

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #74 on: January 25, 2020, 02:56:46 pm »
Alright I think I'm going to give this a shot. I am still in the process of weighing up the pros and cons but I I'm leaning more on the side of trying it at the moment. I have 5 bottles of lithium orotate from Swanson which was recommended by consumerlab as having the stated amount of lithium in it. My only apprehension is it contains magnesium stearate and silica and earlier in the thread [...] recommended a bran that did not contain any magnesium or other additives. Should I just wait and order [...]'s recomended brand, or am I ok to get started with Swanson brand which contains magnesium stearate and silica?
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2020, 06:10:14 pm »
Luket,

I am sorry I am only responding now.  I said if anyone "needs" me, send a PM.  If the only other ingredients are mag stearate and silica, that is an excellent source.  Silica is indigestible quartz sand, and they use the mag stearate as a lubricant on the machinery (stearic acid is a fatty acid), and there will be micrograms in the supp. I wanted people to avoid brands that use fillers that can skew our experiment, like ascorbyl palmitate (a form of vitamin C), various rice flours and brans, and various forms of calcium, all can be triggers in the sensitive.  But silica and forms of cellulose are completely indigestible and so are safe, and the micrograms of magnesium is too low a dose to be harmful even to the sensitive.

You are good to go.  Let us know how it works out for you.

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.