Author Topic: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception  (Read 1983 times)

[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2019, 02:32:00 am »
Nov,

Thank you for sharing.  I do think one would have to get beyond a few milligrams found in orotate to have permanent change.  I do hope it did not contribute to your setback.  Do you have any thoughts on that?

[...],

I could not agree more.  I think we need time to heal, but also that first identifying the question, "what is wrong?" and then identifying the "right medicine" to coax what is wrong back to healthy neurotypical functioning.  This thread is exploring the possibility that the main thing wrong in benzo wd damage is glutamate receptor count and function, and if lithium can lower the count and reduce the synaptic current.  Is that "the" answer?  I don't know, but it is a good place to start. and I am investigating further.

[...]
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[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2019, 02:57:22 am »
Another question I have is since benzo withdrawal Mimicks symptoms of depression and anxiety. Why would the body increase glutamate receptors as a result of emotional trauma to somebody not withdrawing from anything? For example, you have an injury and the body responds with an inflammatory response to precipitate healing. This response is not pleasant but needed for the body to do its work. Does glutamate act in a similar way as a necessary evil to healing? I donít really know where Iím going with this. I guess Iím just trying to think on the basis that the body is wise and itís responses are calculated.
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[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2019, 07:14:24 am »
Why go as far as Lithium?

Lithium should be taken under the advice of a psychiatrist specifically because of kidney problems.

Lithium is interesting in the bipolar group because it DOES work. Funny enough, it will also EVENTUALLY
do kidney damage.


The whole reason I floated the idea of using Theanine in this thread - http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=232260.0

Is because I was looking at Glutamate receptor antagonists that showed strong anxiolytic potential. I ran across the pharmacodynamics of
Theanine and thought "I don't remember it having all these effects. This might be interesting to try in a larger dose."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine#Pharmacodynamics

It has a bunch of interesting effects but unfortunately it's not highly selective. It's a grab bag of stuff you want. Not having something
hyper selective makes it hard to say "This specific receptor antagonist is definitely one solution." Which leads you on a path of finding
similar compounds.

The plus side is theanine is easy to acquire, has no terrible side effects, and has very limited evidence of withdrawal. It also tastes like not
much and readily dissolves in water.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2019, 02:05:25 pm »
Why go as far as Lithium?

Lithium should be taken under the advice of a psychiatrist specifically because of kidney problems.

Lithium is interesting in the bipolar group because it DOES work. Funny enough, it will also EVENTUALLY
do kidney damage.


The whole reason I floated the idea of using Theanine in this thread - http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=232260.0

Is because I was looking at Glutamate receptor antagonists that showed strong anxiolytic potential. I ran across the pharmacodynamics of
Theanine and thought "I don't remember it having all these effects. This might be interesting to try in a larger dose."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine#Pharmacodynamics

It has a bunch of interesting effects but unfortunately it's not highly selective. It's a grab bag of stuff you want. Not having something
hyper selective makes it hard to say "This specific receptor antagonist is definitely one solution." Which leads you on a path of finding
similar compounds.

The plus side is theanine is easy to acquire, has no terrible side effects, and has very limited evidence of withdrawal. It also tastes like not
much and readily dissolves in water.

I believe we're talking about Lithium Orotate in much smaller dosages than Lithium Carbonate which is prescribed in very high doses for Bipolar disorder. I'm not sure if the potential of Kidney damage would be as profound by taking the Orotate supplement that's available OTC. Lot's of information on both available from a variety of reputable sites.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2019, 10:34:45 pm »
Well put [...].  We are talking about working up to a dose a bipolar person would not even feel.

And Why Lithium?  Because lithium has one very specific trait that makes it unique, it slows cations (positive ions) thru ion gated channels, which makes us calm, while simultaneously holding glutamate in the synapse longer.  If we can hold glutamate in the synapse longer, increasing slowly and repeatedly for 6 months to a year, we juuuuuuuuuuuust might coax some of those receptors away, and reduce current flow on a more permanent basis.  If we coax some glutamate receptors away and reduce their current, we might reverse some benzo damage.

Maybe.  That is the question.

[...]
YPN,RYTHIT, AIYAGTH, KG!
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2019, 02:00:14 am »
Nov,

Thank you for sharing.  I do think one would have to get beyond a few milligrams found in orotate to have permanent change.  I do hope it did not contribute to your setback.  Do you have any thoughts on that?

Definitely had nothing to do with my setback.
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2019, 07:15:33 am »
Well put [...].  We are talking about working up to a dose a bipolar person would not even feel.

And Why Lithium?  Because lithium has one very specific trait that makes it unique, it slows cations (positive ions) thru ion gated channels, which makes us calm, while simultaneously holding glutamate in the synapse longer.  If we can hold glutamate in the synapse longer, increasing slowly and repeatedly for 6 months to a year, we juuuuuuuuuuuust might coax some of those receptors away, and reduce current flow on a more permanent basis.  If we coax some glutamate receptors away and reduce their current, we might reverse some benzo damage.

Maybe.  That is the question.

[...]
YPN,RYTHIT, AIYAGTH, KG!

I see. I'm sorry. I misunderstood the dosing on it.

You're trying to updose someone from a very low dose to the smallest dose made correct?

Bipolar people feel those doses still. They still have known side effects even though they're much diminished.
For a psychiatrist to prescribe the lowest dose they'll probably still require renal and TSH/T3/T4 (Thyroid) panels.

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[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2019, 09:30:45 pm »
[...],

Yes exactly what you said.  Build from orotate, or even fractions of orotate, so 1-5 mg lithium ion to the lowest dose made for carbonate which is 150 mg carbonate, 28 mg lithium ion.

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2019, 04:23:38 pm »
[...]... Lots of questions, bare with me.

So, do lithium, SAMe, and Zoloft/sertraline essentially accomplish the same goal?
Or do you theorize the mechanism of one may be more promising than the others?

Could one use them synergistically to positive effect?

Are your theories on dosage and timeframe for lithium based on anything in particular, or just estimated speculation?
Orotate is the easiest to get, so you think 25mg of orotate for 6 months would do the job, yeah?

......
As a side thought... I really like the NO/ONOO theory because it has potential to explain why our symptoms are so varied. And each one of them seems to mimic or mirror one of the prominently proposed NO/ONOO diseases, almost perfectly. Do you really think upregulated ionotropic glutamate receptors could similarly and accurately explain ALL of the different symptoms that we have?

What about someone like myself who had a 'setback' from intense workouts/cardio (which I've heard from other buddies as well, like [...]) what could be the explained neurophysiological process for such a 'setback'? How could a workout kindle those receptors or 'poke' something as you've suggested?
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[Buddie]

Re: The Use of Lithium to alter glutamate reception
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2019, 05:46:31 pm »
Nov,

All good questions.

I know that lithium ions and serotonergic meds and supps work by different mechanisms, but yes they accomplish the same goal: reduction in count, firing voltage, and current flow thru glutamate receptors, particularly NMDA.  Do I know if one will work "better" than another?  I have absolutely no idea, and I SUSPECT, have no proof, that some will respond better to one than the other.  Will they be synergistic?  I SUSPECT, I really have no way to know because no one has studied this yet, that they would be additive, as in you could get some benefit from the serotonin mechanism and additional benefit from the mechanism of lithium, but not synergistic in the truest definition of the word, as in "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, 2+2=5."

My theories on time frame and dosages are "educated guesses."

I saw a good gastro doc.  She called herself a neurological gastroenterologist, but her neurology knowledge was not that deep.  A lot of IBS comes along with something called "visceral hypersensitivity," which is a fancy way of saying you feel your colon like a normal person feels his fingertips.  I have this.  As I said, she does not know much about neurology, but she knows, "Patient has visceral hypersensitivity.  I prescribe Zoloft.  Build from 12.5 to 50 mg and in 6 months 75% of my patients are cured."

I dig, and find surprise surprise, visceral hypersensitivity is conclusively correlated with NMDA hyperfunction.

Thus the educated guess of dose and time frame.  And keep going.  Average people who benefit from SAMe benefit from between 400 and 800 mg tops.  Another educated guess.  The lithium dose was just from googling around.  Lots of psyche journals talk about the benefits of "low dose lithium" for anxiety and depression.
Here's one article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5854802/

When they talk about low dose 150 mg, they mean 150 mg carbonate = 28 mg lithium ion, which equals 5 1/2 - 120 mg orotate supps.  My other educated guess is that anyone with health insurance will literally pay pennies a day for 150 mg lithium carbonate med, so that recommendation was purely financial.  There is no functional difference between one 150 mg carbonate med and 5 1/2 120mg orotate supps, so if it is easier/cheaper for you to use orotate the whole time, I cannot see a difference.

And the best for last:

Yes, I do think that glutamate receptor dysfunction could really be the cause of all of our misery.  BUT, that does NOT mean that the NO-ONOO mechanism does not come into play!  There are a dozen maybe dozens of different chemical reactions that control the count and function (voltage and current) of glutamate receptors, and I have absolutely if or how much the idea if NO-ONOO is important to that control.  I have only started skimming the NO-ONOO articles, and I have a few hundred pages of stuff I need to go thru first before I get to them.  But I remember seeing peroxynitrite (ONOO) NMDA and nanotubules on the same page somewhere in some article.  Nanotubules are essential for NMDA regulation and if we can tie NO-ONOO and peroxynitrite to the formulation of nanotubules, we have a strong argument that it is VERY important to NMDA.

But right now, I, [...], do not know that.  Yet.

If you [...] or anyone who has read a lot on NO-ONOO want to post or PM me a link to the paper that says "HERE! LOOK HERE! PEROXYNITRITE NMDA NANOTUBULES IS IN THIS PAPER!" that would help me a lot.

Now I am back to work.  Today is a decent day, and I intend to use it.

Be well, and thanks for the great questions I hope will foster more discussion on all three threads.

[...]
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