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Titration, Patents, and Fantastical Claims


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Downloads are generally handled quite differently. They generally do not pop up in a new window. I'll email it to you.

 

I can give you my email if that would work. Or you could pm me with the information. I’ve tried to download several times with no success. Just strange is the best way to put that.

 

Oh. I sent it earlier to the address you have associated with your BB account.

 

I'll catch you tomorrow.

 

Not sure what address that is, but I never got your message Colin. Is it in an archived area? I do see that members here can or could leave email addresses, but not anymore. Please do check tomorrow.

 

In hope it might help, below are the steps I followed to download the attachment on my iPad:

 

(1) Navigate to Page 1 of this thread to access the original/first post.

 

(2) Scroll down the post to the BOTTOM of the post. Look for the SECOND paper clip icon (not the one at the top) and the following text:

 

J.Hill-Amendment-Req.-Reconsideration-After-Non-Final-Reject-2015-03-11.pdf (204.35 kB - downloaded 38 times.)

 

(Note: The number of times the pdf has been downloaded may have changed.)

 

(3) Click the above link.

 

(4) The pdf file will download to your iPad.  You’ll see a new page with a pdf icon (the one that looks like a piece of paper with the corner turned down).  You’ll also see the following words in blue text:

 

Open in “Books”

 

(5) Click the blue words above.  The PDF will be saved in Books.  You will be able to read it there. 

 

(6) If you aren’t familiar with how to use Apple Books here’s a link for more info:

 

Read books and more with Apple Books - Apple Support

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201478

 

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Downloads are generally handled quite differently. They generally do not pop up in a new window. I'll email it to you.

 

I can give you my email if that would work. Or you could pm me with the information. I’ve tried to download several times with no success. Just strange is the best way to put that.

 

 

 

Oh. I sent it earlier to the address you have associated with your BB account.

 

I'll catch you tomorrow.

 

Not sure what address that is, but I never got your message Colin. Is it in an archived area? I do see that members here can or could leave email addresses, but not anymore. Please do check tomorrow.

 

If you view your profile, you will see the email address you used to create your account with BB - this is the address I used to email you. To reassure you, other members cannot see your email address details.

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Downloads are generally handled quite differently. They generally do not pop up in a new window. I'll email it to you.

 

I can give you my email if that would work. Or you could pm me with the information. I’ve tried to download several times with no success. Just strange is the best way to put that.

 

Oh. I sent it earlier to the address you have associated with your BB account.

 

I'll catch you tomorrow.

 

Not sure what address that is, but I never got your message Colin. Is it in an archived area? I do see that members here can or could leave email addresses, but not anymore. Please do check tomorrow.

 

In hope it might help, below are the steps I followed to download the attachment on my iPad:

 

(1) Navigate to Page 1 of this thread to access the original/first post.

 

(2) Scroll down the post to the BOTTOM of the post. Look for the SECOND paper clip icon (not the one at the top) and the following text:

 

J.Hill-Amendment-Req.-Reconsideration-After-Non-Final-Reject-2015-03-11.pdf (204.35 kB - downloaded 38 times.)

 

(Note: The number of times the pdf has been downloaded may have changed.)

 

(3) Click the above link.

 

(4) The pdf file will download to your iPad.  You’ll see a new page with a pdf icon (the one that looks like a piece of paper with the corner turned down).  You’ll also see the following words in blue text:

 

Open in “Books”

 

(5) Click the blue words above.  The PDF will be saved in Books.  You will be able to read it there. 

 

(6) If you aren’t familiar with how to use Apple Books here’s a link for more info:

 

Read books and more with Apple Books - Apple Support

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201478

 

Lib,

 

Thank you. It’s early here, and we have plumbers coming this morning to fix our water softener so I will try this after I look at Colin’s post.

 

I’m fine navigating this iPad when it’s set up, but beyond that I need instructions over the phone. Although yours do seem fairly easy to understand. 💜

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Downloads are generally handled quite differently. They generally do not pop up in a new window. I'll email it to you.

 

I can give you my email if that would work. Or you could pm me with the information. I’ve tried to download several times with no success. Just strange is the best way to put that.

 

 

 

Oh. I sent it earlier to the address you have associated with your BB account.

 

I'll catch you tomorrow.

 

Not sure what address that is, but I never got your message Colin. Is it in an archived area? I do see that members here can or could leave email addresses, but not anymore. Please do check tomorrow.

 

If you view your profile, you will see the email address you used to create your account with BB - this is the address I used to email you. To reassure you, other members cannot see your email address details.

 

Thanks Colin. I’m going to go to my profile, and I think I know that email, but I also think I’ve never used it.

 

Even if it’s there, I’ve had several emails. I had a yahoo email that I did use for awhile, but lost the password, had to change it numerous times, and then my oldest daughter used my computer and her email got mixed with mine, and I finally just let the yahoo email go by the wayside.

 

So I’ll go to profile as you suggest and get back to you. But then again, if Lib’s suggestions work for me, I can see the document that way, and that is the point of all this.

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Downloads are generally handled quite differently. They generally do not pop up in a new window. I'll email it to you.

 

I can give you my email if that would work. Or you could pm me with the information. I’ve tried to download several times with no success. Just strange is the best way to put that.

 

 

 

Oh. I sent it earlier to the address you have associated with your BB account.

 

I'll catch you tomorrow.

 

Not sure what address that is, but I never got your message Colin. Is it in an archived area? I do see that members here can or could leave email addresses, but not anymore. Please do check tomorrow.

 

If you view your profile, you will see the email address you used to create your account with BB - this is the address I used to email you. To reassure you, other members cannot see your email address details.

 

Thanks Colin. I’m going to go to my profile, and I think I know that email, but I also think I’ve never used it.

 

Even if it’s there, I’ve had several emails. I had a yahoo email that I did use for awhile, but lost the password, had to change it numerous times, and then my oldest daughter used my computer and her email got mixed with mine, and I finally just let the yahoo email go by the wayside.

 

So I’ll go to profile as you suggest and get back to you. But then again, if Lib’s suggestions work for me, I can see the document that way, and that is the point of all this.

 

Colin,

 

I found the document and read it. Glad it was only 4 pages long as I now have a laundry list here of numerous differences between Hills comparison between her “invention” and Ashton.

 

This is a rather detailed list, and I’m not sure if I need to list each difference or not.

 

I can say for sure, that as we are all different individuals as in “one size DOES  NOT fit all of us,” I think (I think emphasized)  that Hills “one size fits all “ approach will not work with everyone whether here on BB or outside of BB.

 

I will also say, it’s an approach that appears to me as dogmatic, and also displays her method as I found her to be which is dogmatic, and “I’m me and you are not me.” A “queen of the mountain top (or hill).”

 

To keep an open mind is also a good idea. So Hills method can work for some people, just not everyone are also my thoughts.

 

I can post my list of differences easily as I wrote them all down on paper. I do think others should also read this document and possibly find other differences that I did not catch.

 

It would be great if doing so would not cause a big debate.

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Colin,

 

I found the document and read it. Glad it was only 4 pages long as I now have a laundry list here of numerous differences between Hills comparison between her “invention” and Ashton.

 

This is a rather detailed list, and I’m not sure if I need to list each difference or not.

 

I can say for sure, that as we are all different individuals as in “one size DOES  NOT fit all of us,” I think (I think emphasized)  that Hills “one size fits all “ approach will not work with everyone whether here on BB or outside of BB.

 

I will also say, it’s an approach that appears to me as dogmatic, and also displays her method as I found her to be which is dogmatic, and “I’m me and you are not me.” A “queen of the mountain top (or hill).”

 

I can post my list of differences easily as I wrote them all down on paper. I do think others should also read this document and possibly find other differences that I did not catch.

 

It would be great if doing so would not cause a big debate.

 

Intend to be off,

 

As it happens, I transcribed that section of the document a couple of weeks ago. For those who have not read it, it might appear that I have introduced numerous typos. No, it is a near facsimile of the original - all the errors appear in the submitted document. Though, I have added an additional column for quick reference.

 

You will note the repeated claims that Prof. Ashton would have her patients "jump off" at 5mg. I would have assumed this was a typographical error, except it is repeated four times and not once is the correct figure of 1mg stated. I also note Hill's repeated false quotes attributed to Prof. Ashton.

 

Ref #10. Ashton calls for completely "jumping off" the drug at 5.0mg Diazepam. Her claim is that at under 5.0mg, none of the therapeutic effects are working

 

Ashton never used the phrase 'jump off' or 'jumping off'. Please. Elsewhere in the document, Hill also falsely attributed, "Cut and suffer and do it again" to Prof. Ashton.

 

The invention is a remedy for the clear failure of the "Cut and suffer and do it again" procedure described in the Ashton Manual.

 

(Where is that face-palm emoji when you need it). I can appreciate that most of us can be a bit sloppy with using quotes from time to time when we are in chat-mode, but this is a document presented to the US Patent Office, and could potentially form part of legal case. The below is just part of the document Hill submitted to the US Patent Office. Again, the full document is available for download at the foot of my opening post to this thread.

 

</pre><table border="1" cellpadding="5">Ref.
Ashton Says
Invention Says
1.
Always use Diazepam because it comes in small tablets to split. Pills must be split to get the cut.
Valium may be used. In order to exactly measure any chosen cut in dosage or to cut a smaller amount than pill splitting allows, a Diazepam solution is used. A prescription liquid is available for proper dilution.
2.
Just jump right in and cut from 0.25mg to 1.0mg of Diazepam. DO this weekly or even monthly
Determine the individual's maximum safe cut by making a very small cut initially and increasing it gradually over time. Then make that cut daily.
3.*
 
There is a schedule for doing this to encourage an even transition
4.
After reducing the dosage as in the above, wait for a week to many wees to recover from the withdrawal condition that this cut caused. Cut weekly or monthly.
There is no need to wait for more than one day to make another cut. Cut daily.
5.
Never increase the dosage. Even if extremely symptomatic ignore it.
Never increase the dosage. There is no need to up-dose.
6.
A pre-taper is to to arrange to see a psychologist for emotional problems. A doctor is to prescribe the diazepam. There is no plan to cause even drug levels in the body or to prevent premature drug clearance.
Pre-taper is to see a medical doctor for a pre-taper check and a prescription for the Liquid solution, then establish an even amount of drug in the body. The plan ensures that these levels are maintained so that the actual taper is from a stable amount of Diazepam.
7.
Ashton claims that symptoms are not a problem or are dangerous. She calls symptoms :signs of healing"
Symptom levels are the signals to alter the taper or not. Symptoms especially seizures are not to be accepted. Seizures of any variety are signs that the nervous system is in trouble
8.
Ashton's only response to a dangerous taper is to wait longer before making another cut. Ashton is time dependent as the only variable
Invention's response to a bad situation is to make smaller cuts until the situation is acceptable. Invention is cut driven rather than time driven. When a dependent person's c9ndition deteriorates and vital signs are unacceptable, a lower cut is appropriate. Simply putting more time between unacceptable dosage cuts (As Ashton does) does not address the patient's worsening condition.
9.
Ashton does not change the cut amounts until 5.0mg is reached.
Changing cut amounts in response to the patient's condition is sensible but also necessary to prevent a chronic post withdrawal illness.
10.
Ashton calls for completely "jumping off" the drug at 5.0mg Diazepam. Her claim is that at under 5.0mg, none of the therapeutic effects are working
Invention claims that at 5.0mg Diazepam and under, the withdrawal syndrome is still being managed and decreased with continued taper. This can be seen as a sixth therapeutic effect. "Jumping off" means making a 5.0mg cut in one step when a far smaller cut had been the continued norm. It is not surprising that this sudden large cut causes a protracted withdrawal instead of a complete return to normal function. Invention always continues the daily taper to zero mg dosage. We never suddenly "jump off".
11.
Ashton suggests using an antidepressant if depression is present. She does not respect the fact that many antidepressants will induce the enzyme that clears the Diazepam from the body allowing a marked increase in symptom intensity and making seizures more likely.
Invention always considers the possible faster Diazepam clearance when other drugs or substances are known to pharmacologically interfere with the expected rate of Diazepam metabolism or clearance fr0om the body.
</table

 

* Row 3. is probably a continuation of row 2., but appears to be separate row in the original.

 

But worst of all, I think, are Hill's claims that:

 

Need for this invention is clear from the presence and popularity of the ubiquitous benzo-help-sites. The statements of major benzo-illnesses via internet indicate that what was done before this was often causing long term damage ranging from from neuropathy to tinnitus emanating from the auditory center of the brain to chronic myoclonus. Hypertension is not unusual in the Ashton Taper. If this is not managed with a mild and even decline in dosage, heart damage can follow.

 

There are multiple kinds of seizures, and Grand Mal is far from the only type of seizure. Many doctors tell these patients that they cannot taper a benzodiazepine because for these patients it is too dangerous. However, from years of testing this method, these people can use the invention's individually determined daily micro-reductions and remain within safe bounds.

 

And Hill claims to be a technical medical writer, or some such. The above reads like a teenage exam essay from a student who has failed to study the curriculum. The document is compete and utter nonsense. I can only imagine what the patent examiner thought when reading through the above. To reassure those going through withdrawal, the above unsupported claims are the true invention here. Not the 'method' Hill attempts to describe. The more I read the patent and 'supporting' documents, the more appalled I become. I have no idea what Hill was trying to achieve by applying for this patent and in those statements above. I can only assume that she thought no one would ever read them.

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Colin,

 

That last quote about “need for intervention” is a big one that I caught and starred on my list.

 

People here often find they experience all kinds of heart related sx. Some had them before and they are exacerbated, while others just hold and things settle down.

 

In fact, people experience all kinds of sx with benzo withdrawl, and most follow a hold to let sx become tolerable and then move on to taper again.

 

My first doctor just told me I needed Xanax for the rest of my life as many say, but she never once said it was too dangerous to get off of. And when I decided to try, she did not try to stop me. She just did not know what she was doing as I did not either.

 

Jump off? Ashton never did say this. I think it may have started here. Some say that while others say “walk off.” No one gets angry about this that I see. They are just happy to be off.

 

Seriously so many errors in thinking with Hill method. But then again, it does work for some as any method will inevitably work. The goal is to get off primarily with the least suffering possible, but I think that most do experience some sx, while a few don’t have any trouble at all with neither Ashton or Hill involved.

 

These are not my only or last thoughts. I just have the water softener person coming soon and must take my dose.

 

I’m almost sure that no one is giving much thought to Jana Hill, Colin. She is a true legend in her own mind.

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I’m almost sure that no one is giving much thought to Jana Hill, Colin. She is a true legend in her own mind.

 

Except there has been recent uptick in Hill's recent online activities relating to her 'protocols' (including a newspaper article, and her commenting at benzo-related websites); the suggestion that she is about to release a book; threats of lawsuits from one of her supporters because I dared criticise Hill's 'method'; the offer to buy BB by another Hill supporter (presumably, to shut me up and force their withdrawal doctrine upon BB members, as they did with members at Hill's defunct 'support' forum); and the general rather extreme push-back as soon as anyone attempts to question Hill's protocols.

 

Ultimately, I do not much care what other websites do. I may or may not write up a critique. But I will not let BB be used to push a cultish agenda. The only times I have addressed the problem of Hill, was after her patent details became known to me in January 2013, a few years ago when she joined this forum (and threatened to doxx one of our members), and recently when we (the Team) decided to tackle the shortcomings with the Titration support board. That is when we received push-back and treats of lawsuits:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=229137.msg2943449;topicseen#msg2943449

 

Of course, the threat is laughable, but this is not the point. The point is that it demonstrates the mindset of Hill's supporters. It is dogma, and this is diametrically opposed to what BB is about and our Mission Statement:

 

Mission Statement

 

BenzoBuddies: an inclusive, nonjudgmental mutual-support environment for those who wish to withdraw from benzodiazepines.

 

Members of the BenzoBuddies community are encouraged to exchange ideas, information and support during the process of withdrawal and recovery.

 

Although outside of the immediate scope of BenzoBuddies, members are free to discuss their wider medical problems and needs as they relate to benzodiazepine use and withdrawal.

 

Taking or quitting any medicine—including benzodiazepines—should be a personal decision made in consultation with a suitably qualified medical practitioner.

 

Through a peer-support model, we strive to help members achieve their goals.

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Colin,

 

I do think you’re right about this uptick in Jana Hills online activity. Also she was mentioned in Westworld which I think is the magazine you refer to.

 

The CNN interview/documentary by Lisa Ling has Krissy Tyrell of the BIC saying that Jana “walked her through” the entire process while also saying that some man from Australia called her and told her exactly what to do to help her.

 

And your comments here on BB give a link that shows Hill on the BIC website talking about her protocol and people clamoring to hear it. At the end of this, and throughout all of this, the BIC staff are discounting much of what people are posting. And to be honest, I’m not sure if they are discounting Hills comments or not.

 

The point really is that Hill is really putting herself out there again. However, this “stuff” from mtmimi is from several years back, and she is away and gone from BB so I wouldn’t pay much attention to that.

 

I also saw where there are podcasts on benzoreform.org, but did not listen to any of them.

 

I think that all I can say is that I really haven’t found a zealot here on BB. I remember one fellow who thought she was wonderful, but he withdrew his membership.

 

If we do get her zealots here, I think other members will not tolerate someone dictating to them how they should do their taper, and they too will find out like I did that “one size does not fit all,” and will enquire of other people.

 

I do think that BB is open to minds/thoughts of all kinds, but will quickly “crack down” on dogma of any kind.

 

She is “small fry.”

 

 

 

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I don't say this to be fractious; I respect people whose primary intent is to protect the integrity of this forum. That is an admirable goal. We can't individually do everything. But just to add my limited perspective:

 

I disagree that this resurgence of this person is not dangerous. Benzo Buddies is not the world, and it is not where most people learn about benzodiazepine withdrawal. They learn by going through it and then flailing about for help when they discover how clueless their doctors are. Many people come here after one or more failed attempts or a period of prolonged and extreme duress. That potentially causes horrific complications for their benzo buddy supported taper, or for any supported taper. I know it has for my own. We probably almost all begin this process with some level of kindling (and if you don't believe that exists, than call it psychologic trauma leading to fear-induced complications during your taper and recovery).

 

If what media exposure we get is mediated through or gives credence to quacks and self-serving egoists then we are just that much more dismissible. We are already being maligned as being the same as anti-vaxxers (and whatever your stance on that, you know how potent that attack can be). For better or for worse, a movement and a message will rise or fall based on the credibility of those who speak for it.

 

However, I was deeply troubled by that Westworld article for many reasons. Most importantly, it led the reader to believe that the way to healing was through a method devised by a woman who, the article explicitly said, you cannot actually get in touch with (or maybe by casting about wildly on random unnamed Internet forums?).

 

What on earth is the point of that kind of advice? It's like saying there is a cure for cancer but the only doctor who knows about it lives in a cave on top of a mountain in an unnamed country. But don't worry, they're writing a book; so wait for that. And how do you write a book where the whole premiss of your "method" is to individually monitor and tailor each person's taper as it develops? That's not how books work. You would have to have never read a book, much less written a book to not know that.

 

It's all so ridiculous. But let's stipulate for one second that this person's individualized method works. How is she going to personally instruct each of the many thousands of people who need to be tapered? Has she started the process of training others in a clinical setting? If there is a plan for any of this, some kind of sensible mind at work, then let those intentions be spelled out now. I'd be thrilled if there were another avenue for people to find aid. It's all so preposterous and, I believe, dangerous.

 

Is there a group that knows more about benzo withdrawal than the people who have been here for awhile (longer than me for sure)? I hope to see more members (its hard to know since we're anonymous) active on these issues in the world, even the online world. I know we all can't do that, but there is a war going on in psychiatry. And it is ruthless, and there are some heroic figures out there, but they are being drown out by the voices of the mediocre and the self-serving and the sadistic. The entire notion of psychotropic drug use is being debated, and there are victories being won. But not nearly enough. We have to start telling our stories to the world. It helps others. And it will help us.

 

quiet

 

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Except there has been recent uptick in Hill's recent online activities relating to her 'protocols' (including a newspaper article, and her commenting at benzo-related websites);

 

 

 

Which  seems to mirror a dramatic uptick in Colin's personal activity and commentary  here on BB ! ::)

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The point really is that Hill is really putting herself out there again. However, this “stuff” from mtmimi is from several years back, and she is away and gone from BB so I wouldn’t pay much attention to that.

 

Ah. Just a quick correction. The 'threat' of a lawsuit from mtmimi was less than two months ago:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=229137.msg2943449;topicseen#msg2943449

 

As I mentioned before, although the threat was empty, just the fact that it was made by one Hill's close acolytes is disturbing for other reasons.

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Except there has been recent uptick in Hill's recent online activities relating to her 'protocols' (including a newspaper article, and her commenting at benzo-related websites);

 

 

 

Which  seems to mirror a dramatic uptick in Colin's personal activity and commentary  here on BB ! ::)

 

Except, that's not true. There has been a definite uptick in pushing Hill's protocols, as I (and others) have already detailed in this thread. Further, this is the third time I've addressed Hill and 'her method' since the pending patent was published in 2012. On the other hand, Hill and 'her protocols' have not gone away.

 

Perhaps if there not been the ridiculous push-back by a few individuals at BB, I would not have felt the need to detail my concerns more deeply. Just a thought.

 

I’m almost sure that no one is giving much thought to Jana Hill, Colin. She is a true legend in her own mind.

 

Except there has been recent uptick in Hill's recent online activities relating to her 'protocols' (including a newspaper article, and her commenting at benzo-related websites); the suggestion that she is about to release a book; threats of lawsuits from one of her supporters because I dared criticise Hill's 'method'; the offer to buy BB by another Hill supporter (presumably, to shut me up and force their withdrawal doctrine upon BB members, as they did with members at Hill's defunct 'support' forum); and the general rather extreme push-back as soon as anyone attempts to question Hill's protocols.

 

Ultimately, I do not much care what other websites do. I may or may not write up a critique. But I will not let BB be used to push a cultish agenda. The only times I have addressed the problem of Hill, was after her patent details became known to me in January 2013, a few years ago when she joined this forum (and threatened to doxx one of our members), and recently when we (the Team) decided to tackle the shortcomings with the Titration support board. That is when we received push-back and treats of lawsuits:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=229137.msg2943449;topicseen#msg2943449

 

Of course, the threat is laughable, but this is not the point. The point is that it demonstrates the mindset of Hill's supporters. It is dogma, and this is diametrically opposed to what BB is about and our Mission Statement:

 

Mission Statement

 

BenzoBuddies: an inclusive, nonjudgmental mutual-support environment for those who wish to withdraw from benzodiazepines.

 

Members of the BenzoBuddies community are encouraged to exchange ideas, information and support during the process of withdrawal and recovery.

 

Although outside of the immediate scope of BenzoBuddies, members are free to discuss their wider medical problems and needs as they relate to benzodiazepine use and withdrawal.

 

Taking or quitting any medicine—including benzodiazepines—should be a personal decision made in consultation with a suitably qualified medical practitioner.

 

Through a peer-support model, we strive to help members achieve their goals.

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I don't say this to be fractious; I respect people whose primary intent is to protect the integrity of this forum. That is an admirable goal. We can't individually do everything. But just to add my limited perspective:

 

I disagree that this resurgence of this person is not dangerous. Benzo Buddies is not the world, and it is not where most people learn about benzodiazepine withdrawal. They learn by going through it and then flailing about for help when they discover how clueless their doctors are. Many people come here after one or more failed attempts or a period of prolonged and extreme duress. That potentially causes horrific complications for their benzo buddy supported taper, or for any supported taper. I know it has for my own. We probably almost all begin this process with some level of kindling (and if you don't believe that exists, than call it psychologic trauma leading to fear-induced complications during your taper and recovery).

 

I agree, 'dangerous'. I've not yet tackled this in this thread (but I did in one of my posts I linked in my opening post). Apart from her false claims in the supporting document about Ashton's protocols leading to heart disease (false, and dreadful scaremongering), the patent also suggests using grapefruit juice as a dosing error correction mechanism. This is very dangerous advice indeed. Apart from it being a bizarre idea, ingestion of grapefruit can have very dramatic effects upon many medicines. Some medicines are far more dose critical than benzodaizepines. Certainly, ingestion of grapefruit juice has lead to deaths.

 

CBS NEWS: Drinking grapefruit juice with some medications can be deadly, study warns

 

But apart from specifics, above, the more overarching idea that there is some kind of foolproof method of benzodiazepine withdrawal provides false expectations which can lead to all kinds of problems. We know from member reports at BB that members of Hill's forum were banned simply because they reported failures of efficacy when following her protocols. And there have been similar attempts at BB, in essence, to 'blame the victim':

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=231528.msg2973223;topicseen#msg2973223

 

The reality is that benzodiazepine withdrawal is tough for some (for many, around here). There are different methods, and some work better for some in certain situations than they do for others: simple, straightforward pill-splitting works for the majority; substitution for (long-acting) Valium will work for others; and various approaches to 'titration'* for yet others (which is essentially more finely grained pill-splitting).

 

* Please note, there is variability in outcome when titrating benzodiazepines. This is because converting a prescription pill into a powder or liquid will change its pharmacokinetic properties and absorption profile to some (unquantifiable) degree. For some (even many), titrated dosing works very well. For others, it can actually make them feel worse.

 

If what media exposure we get is mediated through or gives credence to quacks and self-serving egoists then we are just that much more dismissible. We are already being maligned as being the same as anti-vaxxers (and whatever your stance on that, you know how potent that attack can be). For better or for worse, a movement and a message will rise or fall based on the credibility of those who speak for it.

 

I've written about this recently (maybe it was even in this thread). We do not allow for the promotion of 'conspiracy theories' at BB. Certainly, it would not be a good look having those kinds of things conflated with benzodiazepine use and withdrawal. But, actually, I fundamental disagree with fantastical, muddled thinking and will not be a party to it by allowing the support group I operate to be utilised in furtherance of such baseless ideas.

 

However, I was deeply troubled by that Westworld article for many reasons. Most importantly, it led the reader to believe that the way to healing was through a method devised by a woman who, the article explicitly said, you cannot actually get in touch with (or maybe by casting about wildly on random unnamed Internet forums?).

 

Maybe the implied mystique was intentional. I just found it weird.

 

What on earth is the point of that kind of advice? It's like saying there is a cure for cancer but the only doctor who knows about it lives in a cave on top of a mountain in an unnamed country. But don't worry, they're writing a book; so wait for that. And how do you write a book where the whole premiss of your "method" is to individually monitor and tailor each person's taper as it develops? That's not how books work. You would have to have never read a book, much less written a book to not know that.

 

Hill has always operated over the phone. It makes her less accountable. I (and the BB Team) have never operated this way. We do not provide practical support by PM either. Further, we are no more the providers of withdrawal support than any other member. This is what peer-support is about. But, agree with me or not, my words are here to dissect and critique. If I am wrong, I am wrong, and everyone can read it, and critique me and my message. And where I do not agree with the critique (or push-back), I will argue my corner. And, there is no danger of my interlocutor being banned from BB for simply disagreeing with me or another member of the team, unlike Hill's interlocutors at her forum.

 

It's all so ridiculous. But let's stipulate for one second that this person's individualized method works. How is she going to personally instruct each of the many thousands of people who need to be tapered? Has she started the process of training others in a clinical setting? If there is a plan for any of this, some kind of sensible mind at work, then let those intentions be spelled out now. I'd be thrilled if there were another avenue for people to find aid. It's all so preposterous and, I believe, dangerous.

 

Reading the details of the patent, it seems that Hill had (or has) larger plans. I think she imagines some kind device or commercial system (the patent figures (diagrams) suggest such a thing). But the whole premise is ridiculous. Apart from really weird (and dangerous) stuff like promoting the use of grapefruit juice, all the patent suggests is reducing your dose by very small amounts; if this works, you might try slightly increasing the size of the very small reductions. And once the taper rate begins to bite, stop increasing the size of the decrements. And, the taper rate can be adjusted later if need be. How is that different from what people do all the time, and have always done? It is only titration, this long existed before Hill was writing about it, long before benzodiazepies where invented, and even before the birth of modern medicine.

 

Is there a group that knows more about benzo withdrawal than the people who have been here for awhile (longer than me for sure)? I hope to see more members (its hard to know since we're anonymous) active on these issues in the world, even the online world. I know we all can't do that, but there is a war going on in psychiatry. And it is ruthless, and there are some heroic figures out there, but they are being drown out by the voices of the mediocre and the self-serving and the sadistic. The entire notion of psychotropic drug use is being debated, and there are victories being won. But not nearly enough. We have to start telling our stories to the world. It helps others. And it will help us.

 

quiet

 

There are some improvements taking place. Though, there is also heightened danger of patients having their medicines forcibly removed from them. There is some sensible discussion. But it is a mixed bag. Personally, I think the general push-back against psychiatry and psychiatric medicine is too extreme. Medicine, by its very nature is inexact. Psychiatric medicine care, by its very nature, is even more difficult. The root cause of the problem, as I see it, is societal reluctance to spend the amounts of money necessary to properly tackle mental health care needs. Clearly, there are often better approaches than taking a pill. But, they cost a lot more, so become unavailable to the majority of people. Further, even for those with deeper pockets, it is all too easy to go the 'easy' route of taking a pill. Yes, there are vested financial interests too, but they take advantage of wider societal weaknesses. So, it is the responsibility of us all.

 

 

Edit: typos and small clarifications

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The point really is that Hill is really putting herself out there again. However, this “stuff” from mtmimi is from several years back, and she is away and gone from BB so I wouldn’t pay much attention to that.

 

Ah. Just a quick correction. The 'threat' of a lawsuit from mtmimi was less than two months ago:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=229137.msg2943449;topicseen#msg2943449

 

As I mentioned before, although the threat was empty, just the fact that it was made by one Hill's close acolytes is disturbing for other reasons.

 

Colin, I did see that I was wrong about the date. There are several links here on this thread that show that these threats from mtmimi are from September of 2019.

 

So I’m just going to say this:

 

Jana’s forum was very open at that time. Pseudo names were used, but it was a small forum that I can remember, and way more interaction between the members than with Jana herself. People became friends and then openly used real names. Phone #s were available as was a pm system.

 

At the time, I was involved in a crossover from alprazolam to clonazepam and going very slow. Jana commented on the open forum that she’d never seen anyone who took so long to crossover from one benzo to another. I let that go and didn’t get into it with her. Then she Pmed me and said that the two of us needed to talk on the phone. I waited for her to call, but that happened about 2 months later. She caught me unexpectedly when she called and did all the talking about herself, her knowledge about tapers, how she knew admins of forums in the UK like you, Colin, and this fellow Ray Nimmo. That call lasted until 2 o’clock in the morning with me finally saying that I needed to go to bed.

 

I never got any help with her version of tapering. I got that from the members themselves who were earnestly trying to help each other. Jana was just too self centered I thought to help me. But those members helped me a lot. All seemed wary of her and often placated her by telling her on the open forum how well they were doing. In reality, they were all talking to each other on the phone and saying how awful and sick they felt.

 

I finally figured out her taper method from other members and definitely not from Jana. And I tried it several times, but just could not do it. Those withdrawl sx from the clonazepam piled up fast and I had to stop her method or be sick from withdrawl all the time. I don’t know if other  members were having the same problem I was, but I think they must have been as we all got to know each other and complained about how bad we felt.

 

Jana had this habit of looking at people’s PMs to each other, and saying to any particular member “I see what you’re pming to her/him and I don’t like that. You need to talk directly to me.” I think I would of done that if she ever answered her phone or just detailed her method on the forum, but that just didn’t happen with me or others. I openly said on the forum to others that that her method did not work for me, and then  she said on the forum that I must have a genetic defect for her plan not to work for me and that it worked with everybody else. In reality it did not work with everybody else as they PMed and phoned each other complaining about the way they felt.

 

I do think it worked  for some as I saw people in dismay that they just “walked off” with no sx at all. They were really surprised themselves. Others had problems and just said nothing to her. And then I got a phone call from some man named Ray. He said he was a doctor himself, was watching what was going happening there and wanted to help me. He said he’d given up on trying to cross to Valium and went into detox at the hospital he had worked at. He sounded quite distressed himself and was yelling into the phone.

 

My thoughts were that this detox didn’t help him much and that he was still suffering from it. My hubby and I had appointments  that day, so I declined his help and left the house. When we got home, I got a call from Jana saying that we had a troll on the forum so I got online, and saw Ray posting all over about everyone doing a detox as Jana was talking to me. I told her what happened to me earlier that day, and she listened. She was very nice, and then we got off the phone. While we were gone, I PMed a friend that this strange man had called me on my home phone. She replied by text (those phone’s  then were those typewriter type phones.) that she’d seen him herself on the forum and to be careful if Jana called me.

 

It sure didn’t pay to be honest with her because the next day, I was banned and couldn’t get on the forum at all. I PMed my friend and she called me. She said that Jana was accusing me of being a troll myself. And that’s it.

 

So what’s the lesson here for me? Not only is she self centered, but she’s paranoid, and doesn’t not like people talking among themselves on her forum. So I say this to Jana Hill:

 

 

Jana if your reading this, come out from hiding behind your “curtain,” grow up and realize that your method DOES NOT work for everyone. You are not in control of anyone except yourself, and basically start your forum back up if you’re so determined to get your “message” out to others. I find you to be a coward to be hiding behind these sheep you have threatening anyone with anything. I seriously think you do not have the backing of anyone, money wise or whatever it takes to set your forum back up.

 

And you mtmimi, try letting Jana speak for herself. You’re off these  drugs and supposedly living the good life in the wilds of northern California. Get on with that please. And basically just shut up. You’re a big girl as Jana is also. Your power is also limited to you and no one else. Get your doctor involved if you need that. And the same for you JANA.

 

 

So I just edited this post to fix my mistakes in punctuation and I may as well add that I’ve been switched on generics of clonazepam 6 times in this past year. And all those switches are difficult to deal with, but I am dealing with them. It’s not easy at all as all sx from all these different generics seem to have really “played ” with my CNS. I’ve been doing a long hold just to see if things get better, but they’ve only gotten worse.

 

How would you handle this JANA and MTMIMI?

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Jana had this habit of looking at people’s PMs to each other, and saying to any particular member “I see what you’re pming to her/him and I don’t like that. You need to talk directly to me.” I think I would of done that if she ever answered her phone or just detailed her method on the forum, but that just didn’t happen with me or others. I openly said on the forum to others that that her method did not work for me, and then  she said on the forum that I must have a genetic defect for her plan not to work for me and that it worked with everybody else. In reality it did not work with everybody else as they PMed and phoned each other complaining about the way they felt.

 

I have stayed away from this thread simply because I have been very busy off the forum. We've all had a chance to look at the patent applications and seen the glaring problems relating to it and Jana's so called 'plan'. Colin has done a fine job of presenting these issues to members.

 

I have to say that I'm am appalled that anyone would read the private messages of a member of a forum. We do not have access nor would we wish to be privy to the PM's of our members. It is a gross betrayal of trust.  I just want everyone to know that this would never happen here.

 

If I had discovered a 'method' that would help people withdraw from benzos with few or no withdrawal symptoms, I certainly wouldn't be hiding it away in a secret society atmosphere where no one is allowed to discuss the 'plan' in public. I would be shouting from the rooftops and sharing all I could with those who need this kind of information and support.

 

Professor Ashton made her protocol available to everyone and I believe, if my memory serves me, assisted in it's translation to at least one other language.  She did this without reserve and not expecting kudos and exclamations of praise.

 

I would fear for my safety and the safety of others if I fell into the grasp of someone as egocentric as Jana Hill.

 

pianogirl

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Piano Girl,

 

Those are my thoughts also. I’m glad you replied. It’s not often that I venture to this part of the forum.

 

I actually thought I was in the titration section when I first started posting, but then Colin moved this as it involves more than titration.

 

I hope he can feel assured that at least one member here was also one who belonged to the BenzoDetoxRecovery forum and knows what happened to them or I should say me.

 

That really happened to me. I’m glad you have been reading along.

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Colin is a bit of a dramatist and his ego seems to bruise easily. He is wasting hours; days, scouring through a patent that he does not remotely comprehend, but he will spin sentences together, a leech or two will join in and spin some more words. It is all pathetic behavior.

 

There are members waiting for help with tapers, people seeking reassurance that what they are dealing with now, will not last for eternity. Colin, as the owner, the responsibility to assure your members they will be okay is of the utmost importance. This rests upon your shoulders and conscious. You do know that people look up to you, right? It's the way you have to curate BB to be, now step up and fulfill your responsibilities.

 

These two old posts show that Colin has never been able to understand liquid titration, if he had, the archives would be full of better experiences. It is not a failing upon him, just an obvious truth. Colin has never been a proponent of liquid titration in general; it was allowed and also highly speculated upon. 

 

Links below to Colin's liquid titrations:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=6023.0

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=6322.0

 

Being there is sufficient evidence, that pill splitting in general is highly inaccurate, why does BB still advise Ashton as a taper method? The attached links are not about benzodiazepines, and benzo dependent people need to be accurate when tapering off. Isn't Ashton "pill splitting?" Yes, yes it is and it is not accurate and would explain why there is much suffering on this forum.

 

Links attached (I know Colin appreciates citations):

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110105071143.htm

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25473334

 

https://www.jmcp.org/doi/pdf/10.18553/jmcp.2015.21.1.76

 

Is liquid titration the answer for everyone? No. 

 

People have the onus to also seek the best way to mitigate damage to them to remove said medication(s). 

 

 

 

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Colin is a bit of a dramatist and his ego seems to bruise easily. He is wasting hours; days, scouring through a patent that he does not remotely comprehend, but he will spin sentences together, a leech or two will join in and spin some more words. It is all pathetic behavior.

 

There are members waiting for help with tapers, people seeking reassurance that what they are dealing with now, will not last for eternity. Colin, as the owner, the responsibility to assure your members they will be okay is of the utmost importance. This rests upon your shoulders and conscious. You do know that people look up to you, right? It's the way you have to curate BB to be, now step up and fulfill your responsibilities.

 

Well now, Gerbera. It has been many years since I've provided practical support on the forum. I would have thought from your thorough reviewing of my posts (old and new) you would know this!? And, as you no doubt understand (although you plainly thoroughly disagree), it is not my or the Team's responsibility to provide support at BB. What part of a 'peer-support' model is it that you do not understand?

 

And what exactly did I 'spin together'? Be specific, otherwise your claim comes across as invention. I supplied verbatim transcripts, copies of original public record documents, and links to the full patent.

 

If, 'members look up to me' (and the reality is assuredly a mixed bag at best), I suspect it is because I do not pluck crap out of my ass, tell them it is gold and urge them to buy it. This will be a difficult concept for you to grasp: I am not here to tell people what to do; and especially not in regard to their healthcare needs. I am not a guru. I know. Disappointing. I just provide a peer-support forum. How boring.

 

As for 'wasting my time'? Well, it certainly sometimes feels like I am banging my head against a brick wall. However, the wider benzodiazepine withdrawal community deserve to know what Hill's patent (and supporting documentation) contain and represent, and all the other associated nonsense too.

 

These two old posts show that Colin has never been able to understand liquid titration, if he had, the archives would be full of better experiences. It is not a failing upon him, just an obvious truth. Colin has never been a proponent of liquid titration in general; it was allowed and also highly speculated upon. 

 

Links below to Colin's liquid titrations:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=6023.0

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=6322.0

 

You point to two old discussion threads from relatively early on in forum's history, from when BB was a closed group (that archive was specifically created to store this old, non-public material). It describes a titration method. More precisely, it described a method for gradually reducing dose by making a liquid from a pill. The definiation of 'titration' is not, whatever Jana Hill does. I do not recall what version we might have ended up using (too long ago, and hardly relevant). But both of those threads relate to a spreadsheet I developed and long ago had to abandon when I stopped providing practical support for members (I concentrated more on technical matters with the community). The titration spreadsheet was part of semi-automated system for producing titration tables for members, based upon the data (inputs) they provided. But you already know this, as I have already explained this to you both on the forum and via PM. That system has not been used for a very long time (certainly not by me for about ten years now), and is from a time when BB was tiny compared to now. But what has been used far more frequently in recent years are the protocols suggested by your demagogue/demigod. Why do the failures of Hill's system go unacknowledged? Ah, yes. Of course: 'the member failed to properly understand the system'. Victim blaming at its finest. And, at Hill's forum, they were then banned for reporting the failure. Brilliant!

 

Irrespective, I never claimed that any method I discussed was a magical, guaranteed to succeed for everyone system. You will note, I pointedly asked for feedback in the posts you linked. BB always has been discussion space. It is not at all clear to me what it is you are attempting to criticise.

 

Being there is sufficient evidence, that pill splitting in general is highly inaccurate, why does BB still advise Ashton as a taper method? The attached links are not about benzodiazepines, and benzo dependent people need to be accurate when tapering off. Isn't Ashton "pill splitting?" Yes, yes it is and it is not accurate and would explain why there is much suffering on this forum.

 

Links attached (I know Colin appreciates citations):

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110105071143.htm

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25473334

 

https://www.jmcp.org/doi/pdf/10.18553/jmcp.2015.21.1.76

 

"Why Ashton"? Really!? Because she was a real GP, who ran a benzodiazepine withdrawal clinic; she was a real-life pharmacologist and researcher, with more than 50 years of experience under her belt, and who genuinely cared about the plight of those who had become dependent upon benzodiazepines. On the other hand: Jana Hill. Give me a break.

 

This has been explained to you many times too. I can only assume your ignorance is now willful. Everyone knows that individual pills vary in dose. But, to put this into perspective, these variations are swamped by (unavoidable) interdose variations in blood levels of benzodiazepine. Plus, individual variations in dose (especially for a long half-life benzodiazepine like diazepam) are smoothed out. A variation in a dose of say, 5% (which is probably at the high end), will not result in a 5% increase or decrease in blood concentrations (certainly not with diazepam). This is because diazapem is slow to accumulate and slow to clear. It buffers against change. We are assured that the true dose of pills will fall within defined and acceptable parameters. This is certainly not true for home-made titrated liquids. Additionally, we know that ingesting grapefruit can be very dangerous when taking many medications (why does Jana Hill promote this idea within her patent?). Further, why does Hill repeatedly make false claims in the supporting document to the patent application ('Ashton tapers causing heart disease'; 'Ashton protocols requiring patients to quit at 5.0mg', etc.)? And why the numerous false quotes attributed to Prof. Ashton?

 

I can well understand why you have chosen to not respond to any of those difficult questions, as Hill's own words are damning and are indefensible. Why did you even join BB, Gerbera? You claimed that you were looking for support with your withdrawal. Clearly this was untrue.

 

Hi, Currently tapering diazepam and looking to connect to others going through this.

 

You've held at least three accounts here, so you know what BB is about, and it ain't Jana Hill. I note that you have just requested that we delete your present account; I suspect you will be back with yet another.

 

Is liquid titration the answer for everyone? No. 

 

People have the onus to also seek the best way to mitigate damage to them to remove said medication(s).

 

And there we have it. Your anti-(psych-)medication agenda. Only amplified by your adherence to a magical system for withdrawal promoted (and patented) by Jana Hill. Hill's lack of self-awareness is staggering:

 

J.hill on February 3, 2019 at 5:36 am

 

It is essential to remember that a taper that is too agressive for the benzo-dependent person is more damaging than remaining on the drug. There is serious ignorance concerning basic science and physiology, and it is shocking to see medical professionals promoting untested taper schemes that ignore basic physiology.

 

A taper scheme is not validated simply because a medical professional writes it. It is not valid simply because it is touted at a help-site.

 

Another issue:Detox facilities are businesses. They have risk management departments, and the risk that we are talking about is legal risk to the business and not to the patients’ lives.

 

At most, but not all help sites it is assumed that the promoted taper plans have been approved after double blind studies. If any have, please tell us about it. Of course double blind studies are not the only possible form of investigation. Still, nothing is actualy tested. At one such site, a member asked about the assumed study that indicated safety. The site owner claimed that these studies really existed, but could not produce one of them.

 

It’s also an odd thing: It is assumed that if a medical professional warns of the danger of benzos, this professional will know how to discontinue the drug. The assumption is ubiquitous on the internet. We should be asking why we should believe that a procedure is either safe or effective. The preponderance of devastation following the most touted procedures normally would initiate some pointed questioning. It hasn’t.

 

Where are the bona fide studies? What are the origins of discontinuation plans?

 

https://www.benzoinfo.com/2019/02/01/new-jersey-woman-gravely-injured-by-benzos-supports-informed-consent/

 

Yes, Jana Hill. Where are the supporting studies?

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[...]

 

At the time, I was involved in a crossover from alprazolam to clonazepam and going very slow. Jana commented on the open forum that she’d never seen anyone who took so long to crossover from one benzo to another. I let that go and didn’t get into it with her. Then she Pmed me and said that the two of us needed to talk on the phone. I waited for her to call, but that happened about 2 months later. She caught me unexpectedly when she called and did all the talking about herself, her knowledge about tapers, how she knew admins of forums in the UK like you, Colin, and this fellow Ray Nimmo. That call lasted until 2 o’clock in the morning with me finally saying that I needed to go to bed.

 

Hi Intend to be off,

 

I can assure you that Jana does not know me. We have exchanged not an email, nor a phone call, and have certainly never met in real life. And I surely do not need to contact Ray Nimmo to ask if he and Hill are besties. ::)

 

I never got any help with her version of tapering. I got that from the members themselves who were earnestly trying to help each other. Jana was just too self centered I thought to help me. But those members helped me a lot. All seemed wary of her and often placated her by telling her on the open forum how well they were doing. In reality, they were all talking to each other on the phone and saying how awful and sick they felt.

 

Yeah. That does not surprise me at all.

 

[...]

 

Jana had this habit of looking at people’s PMs to each other, and saying to any particular member “I see what you’re pming to her/him and I don’t like that. You need to talk directly to me.” I think I would of done that if she ever answered her phone or just detailed her method on the forum, but that just didn’t happen with me or others. I openly said on the forum to others that that her method did not work for me, and then  she said on the forum that I must have a genetic defect for her plan not to work for me and that it worked with everybody else. In reality it did not work with everybody else as they PMed and phoned each other complaining about the way they felt.

 

Oh dear. That's pretty terrible. As PG has already posted, I can assure you that we do not do read your PMs.

 

So, she attempted to diagnose you with a genetic defect because you did not react well to her withdrawal protocols. You know, I am not even surprised anymore.

 

I do think it worked  for some as I saw people in dismay that they just “walked off” with no sx at all. They were really surprised themselves. Others had problems and just said nothing to her. And then I got a phone call from some man named Ray. He said he was a doctor himself, was watching what was going happening there and wanted to help me. He said he’d given up on trying to cross to Valium and went into detox at the hospital he had worked at. He sounded quite distressed himself and was yelling into the phone.

 

But of course some people 'just walked off'. We know that a good proportion of the population can withdraw from benzodiazepines with few problems, even after extended use.

 

That troll/stalker sounds pretty serious, and surely must have been distressing. This is just another reason why we are so strong on advising members to not share their contact details. It is an unfortunate truth that there are sick individuals out there who prey on or gain pleasure from stalking people in a vulnerable state. I think it fair to say that people using or withdrawing from benzodiazepines are generally more vulnerable than the general population.

 

My thoughts were that this detox didn’t help him much and that he was still suffering from it. My hubby and I had appointments  that day, so I declined his help and left the house. When we got home, I got a call from Jana saying that we had a troll on the forum so I got online, and saw Ray posting all over about everyone doing a detox as Jana was talking to me. I told her what happened to me earlier that day, and she listened. She was very nice, and then we got off the phone. While we were gone, I PMed a friend that this strange man had called me on my home phone. She replied by text (those phone’s  then were those typewriter type phones.) that she’d seen him herself on the forum and to be careful if Jana called me.

 

It sure didn’t pay to be honest with her because the next day, I was banned and couldn’t get on the forum at all. I PMed my friend and she called me. She said that Jana was accusing me of being a troll myself. And that’s it.

 

So, she did not even have decency to tell you what she was really thinking. That's both a two-faced and cowardly way to behave.

 

[..]

 

Jana if your reading this, come out from hiding behind your “curtain,” grow up and realize that your method DOES NOT work for everyone. You are not in control of anyone except yourself, and basically start your forum back up if you’re so determined to get your “message” out to others. I find you to be a coward to be hiding behind these sheep you have threatening anyone with anything. I seriously think you do not have the backing of anyone, money wise or whatever it takes to set your forum back up.

 

I think it is a safe bet that Jana Hill is reading all of this.

 

Thank you for your post, Intend to be off. And take care.

 

Colin.

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As for 'wasting my time'? Well, it certainly sometimes feels like I banging my head against a brick wall. However, the wider benzodiazepine withdrawal community deserve to know what Hill's patent (and supporting documentation) contain and represent, and all the other associated nonsense too.

 

Thank you Colin for taking the time from your life to clarify this subject. Although I finished my taper(dry method) several years ago, I would imagine that those who are still tapering will, no doubt, find your concern on this subject that's under discussion here, heartwarming.

 

Again, thank you (and by extension thank you to the tireless moderators) for providing a place for people to seek out support/information that is hard to find, as regards benzos/Z-drugs.

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Colin is a bit of a dramatist and his ego seems to bruise easily. He is wasting hours; days, scouring through a patent that he does not remotely comprehend, but he will spin sentences together, a leech or two will join in and spin some more words. It is all pathetic behavior.

 

There are members waiting for help with tapers, people seeking reassurance that what they are dealing with now, will not last for eternity. Colin, as the owner, the responsibility to assure your members they will be okay is of the utmost importance. This rests upon your shoulders and conscious. You do know that people look up to you, right? It's the way you have to curate BB to be, now step up and fulfill your responsibilities.

 

These two old posts show that Colin has never been able to understand liquid titration, if he had, the archives would be full of better experiences. It is not a failing upon him, just an obvious truth. Colin has never been a proponent of liquid titration in general; it was allowed and also highly speculated upon. 

 

Links below to Colin's liquid titrations:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=6023.0

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=6322.0

 

Being there is sufficient evidence, that pill splitting in general is highly inaccurate, why does BB still advise Ashton as a taper method? The attached links are not about benzodiazepines, and benzo dependent people need to be accurate when tapering off. Isn't Ashton "pill splitting?" Yes, yes it is and it is not accurate and would explain why there is much suffering on this forum.

 

Links attached (I know Colin appreciates citations):

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110105071143.htm

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25473334

 

https://www.jmcp.org/doi/pdf/10.18553/jmcp.2015.21.1.76

 

Is liquid titration the answer for everyone? No. 

 

People have the onus to also seek the best way to mitigate damage to them to remove said medication(s).

 

I’m trying to stay clear of this, but you certainly aren’t going to get a lot of fans by making accusations against the one person who gives us all a safe haven here in the midst of our taper. And post taper. If I were you I’d quit while I was behind. Really, you are fooling nobody. ::)

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As for 'wasting my time'? Well, it certainly sometimes feels like I banging my head against a brick wall. However, the wider benzodiazepine withdrawal community deserve to know what Hill's patent (and supporting documentation) contain and represent, and all the other associated nonsense too.

 

Thank you Colin for taking the time from your life to clarify this subject. Although I finished my taper(dry method) several years ago, I would imagine that those who are still tapering will, no doubt, find your concern on this subject that's under discussion here, heartwarming.

 

Again, thank you (and by extension thank you to the tireless moderators) for providing a place for people to seek out support/information that is hard to find, as regards benzos/Z-drugs.

 

Thank you, BlueRose.

 

Of course, without the hard work of the other team members, I would not have the time to address these matters. So, this is very-much a team effort.

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I’m trying to stay clear of this, but you certainly aren’t going to get a lot of fans by making accusations against the one person who gives us all a safe haven here in the midst of our taper. And post taper. If I were you I’d quit while I was behind. Really, you are fooling nobody. ::)

 

Thank you, benzogirl.

 

Yeah. There was no adequate explanation (or warning) to her members for why Hill suddenly closed down the 'support forum' she operated. Although - in the round a very good thing that she did* - it cannot have been easy for those relying upon the group. It seems a rather harsh, uncaring way to behave.

 

* From what I understand of the situation, the forum was actually owned and operated by a doctor (Jana Hill merely managed it). And, it was the doctor's decision to close down the group. I could speculate, but I can only reasonably suppose he must have had good cause.

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