Help with crossover?

Hi, I'm a little lost as to how to get help on this forum. I am about to start crossover from .875 ativan to valium. How can I get help with a crossover schedule to minimize side effects?

 

Thanks very much for ANY help!

 

 

Edit: post moved to Substitution board/title changed to reflect topic

I’ve done the cross over. From my experience and perspective, here’s what I would do.

 

Add 5 mg of Valium. Wait a week and drop .5 mg Ativan. After that one week period you still have .375 mg of Ativan. You can either taper that or do a complete crossover since the dosage is not really high. So that would be the second week take 3.75 mg of Valium. At week 3 drop the remaining Ativan. So you would be in a total of 8.75 mg Valium and 0 mg Ativan.

 

The cross over is staggered because Valium takes a while to get into your system. If you dropped the Ativan in the same week you’d feel the withdrawal. Once you complete the cross over you have the option of waiting a couple of weeks to stabilize. That’s what I did. Remember while Valium can be an easier benzo to taper it still is a benzo. It’s just much better than that horrible Ativan from what I know. Please taper off the Valium slowly if you can, imo. Since it takes a while to get out of your system you might feel fine at first and than later say, oh! S**t! I should have slowed down. That happened to me and it was not any fun. Nosiree.

Thanks, I really appreciate your help! Just a little uncertain what week 2 would look like if I drop .5 Ativan. Shouldn't I add Valium to the 5mg I start in week one? So in week 2 I would be on .375 Ativan and how much Valium?

 

Thanks!

Thanks, I really appreciate your help! Just a little uncertain what week 2 would look like if I drop .5 Ativan. Shouldn't I add Valium to the 5mg I start in week one? So in week 2 I would be on .375 Ativan and how much Valium?

 

Thanks!

 

Yes. I’m sorry if I was unclear but I do a lot of these. On week 2 you should take an additional 3.75 mg of Valium and the same week drop the .5 mg Ativan. So on week 2 you’d be on 8.75 mg Valium. The following week drop the remaining.375 mg Ativan.

Benzogirl, do you know why Ashton has the person doing 1/2 and 1/2?  I swapped out 1 of my 3 doses of Klonopin for Valium and then by Day 7, really felt the Klonopin withdrawals (pretty bad head pressure).  I'm on Day 14 now of the first substitution and haven't tried the 2nd yet - trying to let things settle.  The head pressure I had on Days 7-10 have settled some but it's still there pretty good.  I'm told that Valium is often not enough to cover the K withdrawals.

 

So you only did a partial cross, tapered the klonopin and then at the end tapered the valium?  I've considered going this route.  I was really in acute when trying to taper the remaining klonopin, getting pretty bad interdose withdrawals on 3X per day (extreme hyperacusis and some other things).  But the head pain I am getting on Valium now is pretty rough, though I know it could dissipate - just trying to determine which route to go.  A lot of docs these days, because of the crackdown, are not ok with staying on 2 benzos at one time. 

 

I was only at .360 K when I swapped out .10 mg for 2 mg of Valium and it's helped a lot in some ways but I got the head pressure now, whether a side effect of the Valum or the K withdrawals, just not sure.

Hi

 

I’m not sure what you mean by half and half? Can you please explain?

Benzogirl,

 

Thanks for checking this thread.  Here's more info.  Was going to write you a PM and ask you to respond to this thread but I see you have already.

 

I see you advising many on here with a Valium/Klonopin cross or partial cross.  I was having SO many problems tapering the remaining .5 klonopin that I was on, getting interdose withdrawals, just severe acute withdrawals really.  I restarted a taper of .5 mg (after tapering and holding, my biggest regret, holding) and got down to .360 (.125 mg K, .10 K, and .125K) in 3 months but got slammed with severe worse symptoms - extreme hyperacusis (severe hypersenses altogether, tremors, akathisia), etc. 

 

My doctor originally wanted me to do a direct switch and I'm SO glad I did not do that!  Now, with my reactions, she's decided we have to take this even slower.

 

Two weeks ago, I swapped one of my doses, the smaller one (.10K) for 2 mg of Valium.  Some things, like the severe hyperacusis settled within a day......however, I acquired some severe burning muscle pain, stomach issues, itching (side effects of the valium, I am sure of it) and then about a week ago, some pretty severe head pressure.  The head pressure over the last several days has calmed down to a pretty bad headache, which are either a side effect of the V or the K withdrawal.  The muscle pain is settling nicely though the itching is still there as is stomach upset.

 

Now, I'm trying to determine how to move forward.  I am told that the Valium does not completely cover the Klonopin withdrawals in some so I have mentioned to her perhaps keeping 2 mg of Valium and tapering the klonopin.  She wasn't thrilled about this idea but she said she would research it.  Docs are hesitant to prescribe 2 benzos now days.  But given my severity of how bad I am, the doc agreed to consider it.

 

Or, I may just need more time to adjust to the Valium and take the crossover a little slower.

 

I like your idea of letting the Valium build up now before taking away the K - that could have been part of my problem with the head issues, though I don't really know b/c it didn't really it me until about a week in and by then, the valium should have "built up". 

 

Just wondering what your advice might be here? 

 

P.S.  What I mean on 1/2 and 1/2 is that Ashton, on the 1st stage of the crossover, has folks do a sub of 1/2 of their dose of K at night for 1/2 of equiv V dose  Then after a week, sub the other 1/2 of the night dose for the other 1/2 of the V equiv.  Then move on to the morning dose and then the mid-day dose.  This all takes place over 6 weeks. 

Benzogirl,

 

Thanks for checking this thread.  Here's more info.  Was going to write you a PM and ask you to respond to this thread but I see you have already.

 

I see you advising many on here with a Valium/Klonopin cross or partial cross.  I was having SO many problems tapering the remaining .5 klonopin that I was on, getting interdose withdrawals, just severe acute withdrawals really.  I restarted a taper of .5 mg (after tapering and holding, my biggest regret, holding) and got down to .360 (.125 mg K, .10 K, and .125K) in 3 months but got slammed with severe worse symptoms - extreme hyperacusis (severe hypersenses altogether, tremors, akathisia), etc. 

 

My doctor originally wanted me to do a direct switch and I'm SO glad I did not do that!  Now, with my reactions, she's decided we have to take this even slower.

 

Two weeks ago, I swapped one of my doses, the smaller one (.10K) for 2 mg of Valium.  Some things, like the severe hyperacusis settled within a day......however, I acquired some severe burning muscle pain, stomach issues, itching (side effects of the valium, I am sure of it) and then about a week ago, some pretty severe head pressure.  The head pressure over the last several days has calmed down to a pretty bad headache, which are either a side effect of the V or the K withdrawal.  The muscle pain is settling nicely though the itching is still there as is stomach upset.

 

Now, I'm trying to determine how to move forward.  I am told that the Valium does not completely cover the Klonopin withdrawals in some so I have mentioned to her perhaps keeping 2 mg of Valium and tapering the klonopin.  She wasn't thrilled about this idea but she said she would research it.  Docs are hesitant to prescribe 2 benzos now days.  But given my severity of how bad I am, the doc agreed to consider it.

 

Or, I may just need more time to adjust to the Valium and take the crossover a little slower.

 

I like your idea of letting the Valium build up now before taking away the K - that could have been part of my problem with the head issues, though I don't really know b/c it didn't really it me until about a week in and by then, the valium should have "built up". 

 

Just wondering what your advice might be here? 

 

P.S.  What I mean on 1/2 and 1/2 is that Ashton, on the 1st stage of the crossover, has folks do a sub of 1/2 of their dose of K at night for 1/2 of equiv V dose  Then after a week, sub the other 1/2 of the night dose for the other 1/2 of the V equiv.  Then move on to the morning dose and then the mid-day dose.  This all takes place over 6 weeks.

 

Hi

 

I’m sorry for you. But please be clear, I am not telling people what to do. This would be against forum rules. Either they ask for help, or I share my own experiences. It took me four months to do a partial cross over to 70 mg of Valium. If you are 100% positive that the Valium is causing these uncomfortable side effects, then increasing your dose would likely make it worse. Are you absolutely sure in this stage of the game?

 

You actually should not get interdose withdrawal from klonopin, as it has a half life of about a day. But if you feel it, then okay. I assume you know that 1 mg klonopin equals 20 mg of Valium by most standards? Since Valium does have a long half life, each subsequent dose puts more in your blood stream. 2 mg is not very much but I know of one person who could only handle that dose and then did her direct taper off klonopin. If it were me I’d give it more time. You may have a slow metabolism which means the 2 mg of Valium still needs some time.

 

I guess since the klonopin is causing problems as is the Valium, you have to pick your poison. Which benzo is the least offensive? Do you want to try for another small cross over and see what happens? That’s what I would do. If it makes you feel worse you can always cross back over again.

Thanks Benzogirl.  I know you can't tell anyone what to do - only looking for your perspective and opinion as it seems like you've been around the block here? 

 

I'm not quite sure.  I think I was just in such severe acute tolerance withdrawal from the K.....I was noticing interdose w/d.  I'm pretty severe.  I was only on K daily for several months but tapered from 1.5/2 mg to .5 mg in 4.5 months (with very little physical symptoms) but I held at .5 mg for too long and got into severe tolerance w/d.  Then started tapering the .5 mg, and dropping the tiny amounts caused me extreme symptoms and I've been in acute.

 

I just don't know if it's taking away the K or the Valium itself causing the severe headaches/migraines.  I only crossed the first dose two weeks ago and the head pain came on about 1 week ago, right about the time that the K withdrawals probably started kicking in.  Or about the time the Valium started building up.  So hard to know.  Maybe the take-away of the 1/3 of K  was just too fast for me?  I'm very sensitive (to meds and everything else) and am predisposed to headaches anyways.  And I know that K, with its anti-convulsant properties can really "dig in".  But I had no head pressure/headaches at all from tapering the .5 to .360 (though over 3 months).  I know others that crossed also got head pressure and headaches for a while (that calmed) so perhaps I just need to be patient and know it's part of everything.  I also, however, know that for some, head pressure/migraines did NOT calm down so it's really a risk.  Wouldn't crossing back be a little risky, given the much longer 1/2 life of Valium?

 

Supposedly, I am actually an ultra-rapid metabolizer of one of Valium's metabolites but there are several metabolites and I honestly just don't know about all these genetic tests. 

 

So much has gotten better just by crossing that one dose of K to V (the V has really calmed things down for me).....this is part of why it appeals to me to keep in both, perhaps, and taper them both at the same time if I cannot cross any more.  Do you feel it was very helpful for you to just do the partial crossover and keep both at the same time?  In your case, it was just because of the high dose of K and not crossing over to too much V?  The other person you are referring to kept both and tapered the K and then the V?  I know KGirl kept in 2 mg of Valium and tapered her K, then the V.  I wasn't sure why she couldn't tolerate a crossover, though.  I've seen just a handful of other folks that have used two benzos.....using V with the long half life and keeping their original benzo and tapering it.  But it's pretty rare.

 

Thanks again!!!

 

Yes it was my friend kgirl. I personally believe you tapered too fast. Combine that with a very fast metabolism and I think you  answered your own questions.

Thanks, I really appreciate your help! Just a little uncertain what week 2 would look like if I drop .5 Ativan. Shouldn't I add Valium to the 5mg I start in week one? So in week 2 I would be on .375 Ativan and how much Valium?

 

Thanks!

 

Yes. I’m sorry if I was unclear but I do a lot of these. On week 2 you should take an additional 3.75 mg of Valium and the same week drop the .5 mg Ativan. So on week 2 you’d be on 8.75 mg Valium. The following week drop the remaining.375 mg Ativan.

 

Thank you!

:)