Crossing from 3mgsK to V?

I'm now considering crossing over from my 3mgs of Klonopin to Valium. I am only getting worse on my reinstatement to Klonopin. I feel soulless. And often when I take the Klonopin dose (4 times a day) I feel worse. My doc gave me a prescription for compounded liquid Klonopin to start tapering, so I don't know if I should do that for awhile and see if it helps. My grief (I don't know if it is depression) is so intense I worry about going fully over to the Valium, which would be 60mgs. Any thoughts? Would it be better to do a partial crossover? I'm mostly ok on anxiety now, it's just this empty soulless crushing sadness that is making things...tough.

Hello, Q.

 

I hear what you are saying about your grief.  Your description reminds me of the Dementors in Harry Potter who consume all human happiness. :'(

 

I do not have personal experience with crossing from K to V.  (I’ve just read as much as I can about the pros/cons of doing so - I’m sure you’ve done the same).

 

However, I wonder if you can at least give the compounded liquid a try?  Maybe you could use it to get down to a lower dose so the grief isn’t so horrendous? 

 

Looking for a tiny bit of silver lining here, it sounds like you’ve found a doc who is willing to help you. Yes?

 

L

PS  Do you have the option of using a combination of regular tablets and the compounded liquid (which I’m guessing is a suspension)?  Based on what I’ve read here on BB and elsewhere, my understanding is that this approach has worked well for some folks.

I will try. Thank you, Libertas. I don't know about a combination of pills and liquid, it's been hard enough getting her to get the math right on this. Doing this is like having a broken engine, and the closest you can find to a mechanic is a veterinarian.

Hi Q.

Betsy (benzogirl) took both at once, I think. One of few here who has. Let me PM her to post here to see if she has recommendations based on her experience with this.  Seems to me a partial crossover might be better due to the depression factor with V.

Challis

it's exactly the dementors. I think of that a lot. It's all gone. I was depressed my whole life, but I was still ME. this is just soul destroying.

 

thank you challis. You all are so nice.

Thanks, Challis. Hang in there Q!

I'm now considering crossing over from my 3mgs of Klonopin to Valium. I am only getting worse on my reinstatement to Klonopin. I feel soulless. And often when I take the Klonopin dose (4 times a day) I feel worse. My doc gave me a prescription for compounded liquid Klonopin to start tapering, so I don't know if I should do that for awhile and see if it helps. My grief (I don't know if it is depression) is so intense I worry about going fully over to the Valium, which would be 60mgs. Any thoughts? Would it be better to do a partial crossover? I'm mostly ok on anxiety now, it's just this empty soulless crushing sadness that is making things...tough.

 

Hi

 

Challis99 is right. I was on both. I was also on Xanax in another life but let’s not go there. I’m sorry you’re having trouble. I never took liquid klonopin but I tried liquid Valium and I felt it was weaker and I was going through withdrawal. Well, that didn’t last long.

 

I was on an extremely high dose of klonopin so I only did a partial cross over which was to 70 mg of Valium. That came in handy because the klonopin turned its back on me and gave me terrible insomnia. I too dosed 4X a day but later realized this was unnecessary. Klonopin has a pretty long half life so I found dosing twice a day to be sufficient.

 

Now it seems you know Valium can cause depression. Well, all benzos have this potential because after all they are depressants. But Valium is more noted for it. I never got depressed. People do a direct taper right off klonopin. I didn’t for above reasons and of course my pdoc followed the Ashton manual. When you say you feel worse when you dose I’m not sure exactly what that means. But okay, I’m going to assume you don’t like it. Who does?

 

If I were in your shoes, and given that you mention the depression, I would consider acting cautiously. Like a partial as you said. And if the Valium works out for you then you can cross over more.

 

So let’s say you want to try a partial of 1 mg klonopin to 20 mg Valium. One week take 5 mg Valium. Wait a week and drop .25 mg klonopin and at the same time take another 5 mg Valium. So right at this point you’d be at 10 mg Valium and 2.75 mg klonopin. Please don’t start your taper. We are going to do a yada yada and the following week drop another .25 mg K and add 5 mg Valium. The fourth week you would drop another .25 mg K and add that final 5 mg Valium. Week 5 drop your final .25 mg klonopin.

 

The reason for this staggering cross over is because Valium takes a while to get in your system. So if you dropped your klonopin at the same time your body would likely go through unpleasant and unnecessary withdrawals. So you would wait and stabilize on 20 mg Valium and 2 mg klonopin. Warning: you might feel sedated on the Valium for a bit until you get used to it. I had found in hindsight that I preferred this to anxiety and/ or insomnia. Valium should help you sleep 💤.

 

If it works rinse and repeat another 1 mg klonopin drop while adding 20 mg Valium in staggering doses. It took me a full four months to cross to 70 mg Valium. But as my pdoc said, I had no plans to fly to the moon. All went well for me. I hope it does for you.

 

I know you said you dread your second taper. Well this one was number three for me and I was on the equivalent of a whopping 200 mg Valium. I of course dreaded it too but ya know something? It really wasn’t bad at all. Please never compare yourself to others or to previous tapers.

Thank me benzogirl for your helpful and detailed reply. Is makes a lot of sense to me. I think my doctor is on board

 

 

And thanks for the encouragement,

 

quiet

My pleasure. I wish you the best. Please keep us updated. I’m glad your doctor is coming around. So many don’t get it..

Just an update. My doc was ok with the crosser but insisted to do it via Ashton's schedule. So it's been five days. The most noticeable change is that my whole body hurts immensely. Muscle ache, joint ache. Hard to move. Will post again if anything changes.

That’s good and bad. I’m sorry for the suffering but your body is confused over this. That why the cross over should be more staggered. But the good news is that it will eventually adapt. Hang tough. Valium is a muscle relaxer so those pains should go away from my experience.

Yeah you might experience a bit of withdrawal during the crossover. Clonazepam is more potent than Valium and hits some different receptors, including some 5-HT (serotonin) receptors. Just go slow if you can. The switch is definitely a good idea.

I just wanted to let you know that I had severe neck/back/muscle pain too on my first cross dose that lasted several days (like 12) and I was scared I would be stuck with it but I was surprised/pleased that it dissipated a couple days ago.  Others have said the same thing - that they experienced this and it did dissipate and then others, it does not.  Unfortunately for me, about 7 days into the cross, I got bad head pressure but I'm told this can also be "normal".....they were really bad and have eased but are still there and fluctuate through the day (from low grade to migraine) and I'm on Day 15 of the first dose crossover.  My doctor, who originally wanted to first do a direct cross (and I refused), then wanted to cross a dose every 7-10 days, but after these symptoms happened, told me we are going to take it "slower".

 

Benzogirl, and Data_Guy, are severe headaches pretty normal then on a cross and to your knowledge, do they generally dissipate after a while?  I'm praying/hoping that it's not a side effect of Valium itself.  I'm very sensitive to medications, supplements, hormonal fluctuations, etc (and have had a past history with headaches).....but I'm really praying for this crossover to help me as so much other stuff has improved (got rid of many acute symptoms) just with a one dose crossover.  But living with a chronic migraine would not be good.  So now, I'm trying to decide when to cross the next partial dose or if I should wait a little longer.....thoughts?

 

Not sure in the end if a cross will help, but I am praying that it will make things better/easier.

I never had headaches on a cross but in general I never had them pre benzo. There are just so many symptoms out there. I do know I get pretty bad headaches when I sleep poorly. That and stomach pain which is why I think sleep is so important to healing. I honestly can’t remember anyone but I read thousands of posts so I’ve probably forgotten.

I just wanted to let you know that I had severe neck/back/muscle pain too on my first cross dose that lasted several days (like 12) and I was scared I would be stuck with it but I was surprised/pleased that it dissipated a couple days ago.  Others have said the same thing - that they experienced this and it did dissipate and then others, it does not.  Unfortunately for me, about 7 days into the cross, I got bad head pressure but I'm told this can also be "normal".....they were really bad and have eased but are still there and fluctuate through the day (from low grade to migraine) and I'm on Day 15 of the first dose crossover.  My doctor, who originally wanted to first do a direct cross (and I refused), then wanted to cross a dose every 7-10 days, but after these symptoms happened, told me we are going to take it "slower".

 

Benzogirl, and Data_Guy, are severe headaches pretty normal then on a cross and to your knowledge, do they generally dissipate after a while?  I'm praying/hoping that it's not a side effect of Valium itself.  I'm very sensitive to medications, supplements, hormonal fluctuations, etc (and have had a past history with headaches).....but I'm really praying for this crossover to help me as so much other stuff has improved (got rid of many acute symptoms) just with a one dose crossover.  But living with a chronic migraine would not be good.  So now, I'm trying to decide when to cross the next partial dose or if I should wait a little longer.....thoughts?

 

Not sure in the end if a cross will help, but I am praying that it will make things better/easier.

 

Hi Mom

 

Headache can be a side effect from Valium but also a withdrawal effect from K, so hard to say which is causing it right now. Did you have a headache when trying to taper straight off K?

 

Also, have you talked to anyone about the full list of side effects of Seroquel? You can take a look here: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2008/020639s025s037s038s040lbl.pdf

Thansks for your words on muscle pain. I actually feel better today, though my knees always hurt for other reasons. I think the main thing is just the crushing loss that has to be dealt with from losing the life you had. Not being able to go out or do things are think about much else but this. To me that seems like a normal but still horrible reaction to going through this. I don't see it as medication based, but who knows.

I will try. Thank you, Libertas. I don't know about a combination of pills and liquid, it's been hard enough getting her to get the math right on this. Doing this is like having a broken engine, and the closest you can find to a mechanic is a veterinarian.

 

Oh QQ, that was a perfect description 

Hi Data_Guy,

Thanks.  No, I didn't experience them on K but I hadn't dropped such a large dose at once since restarting the taper - I was doing a daily microtaper.  You may be right that it could be a combination of the two - my body trying to adjust to the new med (getting headache as a "side effect", though supposedly a rare one) and the "shock" of the larger amount of Klonopin leaving.  I'm just praying that it dies down.  My brain and nervous system, especially now, are super sensitive to all things - meds, supplements, etc. 

 

Seroquel.....I've been on for years and if anything, it's only helped my headaches in the past so I know that's not the culprit.  I know it can cause issues but that's something I will have to deal with later.  It's not the big monster in the closet right now. 

 

Quietquiet, that's great about the muscle pain letting up.  I was so relieved when mine did also.  No, for me, it had nothing to do with losing the life I had, though that in itself is incredibly, incredibly depressing, sad, and devestating.  For me, these are real physiological symptoms, just like many of the other severe symptoms that I have had to contend with, and are UNREAL (didn't even know existed symptoms until I got) with this stuff.

An update on my crossing over from K to V. I've basically been doing the Ashton schedule, except I'm going down each stage in a week, instead of two. The reason I'm doing this is threefold (including the fact that I started at a pretty high dose 3mgs).

 

1) It hasn't affected my body anxiety to go down a stage each week. That is in check. The valium is def helping with that so far.

 

2) My body is always sore for about half the day, and then lessens. I imagine if I stayed at a stage for awhile this might get even better, but it's bearable and I'm more concerned with the next thing.

 

3) I am still experiencing extreme anhedonia. I literally enjoy nothing. It's a hopelessness like being at the bottom of a well that no light ever reaches. And I am hoping that getting off the klonopin sooner will help that. But I know it's just as likely that the valium will have the same effect. Sigh.

 

I know that there are no real answers to any of this. And I know that many of you are dealing (quite admirably, I have been reading and chiming in occasionally) with the newcomers. But I just wanted to provide this update, and make sure I'm not doing anything too stupid, or missing something.  My greatest fear is the return of akathisia. I'm not doing a third taper.

 

thanks all,

 

quiet