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Sauna program for withdrawal


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Hey buddies,

 

I'm not trying to suggest the following is a good idea or a bad idea. I simply wanted to share my experience and get people's opinions.

 

I have withdrawn from benzos and Ambien (and opiates) twice now. The first time at rehab for 42 days and now 41 days on my own. Obviously, I reinstated in between. But at my rehab, which was for the most part a bad experience there was one very interesting aspect of their program and that was their sauna program. At about 20 days into withdrawal, they had us all sit in a sauna for 5 hours a day. I thought that was insane at first, but went along with the program. We could get out and cool off for a few minutes whenever we needed but this program was every day, 7 days a week, 5 hours a day. They made sure we drank at least 10 glasses of water, took extra vitamins and oils and ate raw vegetables etc. to replace what was depleted. It all seemed kinda crazy, but nonethelss, it's interesting to compare the 42 days benzo-free then, with the 41 days benzo-free now.

 

And here were the positive effects that I believe were at least somewhat attributable to the sauna program:

 

We all noticed reduced anxiety, improved skin tone, improved sleep and reduction in aches and pains. Since anxiety, sleep and pain are such big parts of withdrawal, I thought maybe this program was worth mentioning. Here is a link below, in case you are interested, but let me disclaim once more, I'm posting this for informational purposes only -- I am not even a proponent of this rehab program, I just found that I got certain benefits from the sauna portion of their program.

 

Which symptoms were better at rehab vs. at home withdrawal?  Anxiety was less, but there were less real-life stressors at rehab. Sleep was better, but not a great deal better than at home. What I did notice is that sleep at rehab during the sauna program was quite a bit better than sleep at the rehab prior to the sauna program. Of course, that could have been a function of having been further into the withdrawal process at the time of the sauna program. And pain was definitely reduced.

 

The theory behind this program is that "drug residuals" reside within your body and that this intense sauna program dislodges them and encourages your system to "flush" the toxins. In conjunction with the program, high doses of niacin were given, beginning with 100mg and working all the way up to 1,500mg per day.

 

I guess I just wanted everyone to know that their sauna program was the one and only thing I kind of miss -- as it did tend to instill a sense of calmness, clearer skin, brighter eyes, and a dampening of symptoms. Personally I may get over to our health club and begin saunaing again on a reduced basis. I am NOT advocating 5 hours a day as we did in rehab, but I may give the sauna a try. Of course it goes without saying that if anyone considers doing this too,  consult a doctor, go slowly, and do everything you can do to avoid dehydration. This is no joke and I am NOT even recommending this program.

 

I simply wanted to get opinions and see if anybody has ever heard of or experienced this type of program and get any opinions.

 

Last warning, this rehab is a proponent of the principles of scientology creator L. Ron Hubbard. I know that's bound to turn people off. Again, I am NOT a proponent of this rehab, of L Ron Hubbard or of Scientology. I didn't even know any of this when I checked into this rehab. I'm only trying to discuss and evaluate whether there is anything inherently beneficial in sauna-ing for withdrawal symptoms.

 

Lastly, I would NOT recommend this rehab center. In fact, overall, I give it a strong thumbs down!!!

 

Here's their link: http://www.narconon.org/drug-treatment/narconon-detox.html

 

Albie

 

 

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The reason you are having a more difficult withdrawal the second time around is due to kindling.  Every subsequent time you withdraw, the symptoms will usually be more intense and longer lasting. 

 

The suggestion of a sauna treatment illustrates a complete lack of understanding on their part about how the withdrawal from these drugs works.  This is voodoo quackery at its worst. 

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Ok. I have a lot of experience of sauna since I'm from Finland  ;) Most people here have own saunas, even in small flats like mine.

 

I have never heard of such a program Albie told about. 5 hours sounds like a very very long time!

 

I dont go to sauna often these days. This is because I often feel light headed and uncomfortable there. I think that's due to blood pressure which peaks in heat right? One thing sauna does to me is that I feel relaxed and sleepy afterwards, so I guess it does help relieve muscle tension.

 

I dont know if it's the benzos, but I find that its hard for me to start sweating, as if the "sweating system" is not working in my body.

 

I usually spend no more than 10-20 minutes in sauna.

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The reason you are having a more difficult withdrawal the second time around is due to kindling.  Every subsequent time you withdraw, the symptoms will usually be more intense and longer lasting.

 

Hi Ryan,

 

Do you have any good references for "kindling". I'm not ware of any good research to support this. However, I don't pretend to closely follow benzo research and theory.

 

The suggestion of a sauna treatment illustrates a complete lack of understanding on their part about how the withdrawal from these drugs works.  This is voodoo quackery at its worst.  

 

Members have reported that they feel worse after a sauna. My guess is that the body is mildly stressed by using a sauna, and those going through benzo withdrawal seem to be unusually affected by any kind of stress.

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Hi Ryan,

Do you have any good references for "kindling". I'm not ware of any good research to support this. However, I don't pretend to closely follow benzo research and theory.

 

There is a greater abundance of information on kindling related to alcohol withdrawal, which has had more research than benzo withdrawal.  One article would be http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh22-1/25-34.pdf.  I have seen many references to kindling in benzodiazepine withdrawal as well, including by Dr. Ashton in her manual.  Here is one such reference from Wikipedia:

 

"Repeated benzodiazepines withdrawals, like with alcohol withdrawal, may lead to sensitization or kindling of the CNS, possibly leading to worsening cognition and symptomatology and making each subsequent withdrawal period worse."

 

There is also some information on the T.R.A.P. website at http://www.non-benzodiazepines.org.uk/benzo-faq.html.  Here is the relevant excerpt:

 

"Another problem is to use the medical terminology, is the kindling effect, the kindling effect is where multiple withdrawals, putting the body into withdrawal and out of withdrawal multiple times can cause a hypersensitisation of the receptor systems and thus causing the nervous system to be hypersensitised which can lead people to not being able to stabalise on their benzos as well as they used to and as well as to feeling toxic on the drugs and as well as finding that each withdrawal is worse than the previous."

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Members have reported that they feel worse after a sauna. My guess is that the body is mildly stressed by using a sauna, and those going through benzo withdrawal seem to be unusually affected to any kind of stress.

 

Whatever the reason is, the premise for suggesting saunas (and acupuncture, "chakra work", etc), is that we need to "detoxify" our bodies to heal.  A lot of people have made a lot of money promoting voodoo medicine that claims to heal all conditions by eliminating "toxins" that don't really exist.  As you know, the elimination of benzodiazepines from our bodies probably cannot be sped up very much and even if it could, it is not the underlying cause of withdrawal symptoms.  The fact that all these doctors and "holistic practitioners" think it is the cause reveals a very disturbing lack of knowledge about this condition within the healthcare community. 

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I too am very much a skeptic. We have, embarrassingly, homeopathy available here on the NHS, but there is pressure to change this. As you indicated, "detoxing" is mumbo-jumbo. Even if it were possible to rid the body of benzodiazepine more quickly by going to a sauna, etc., this would only worsen withdrawal symptoms.

 

We allow for discussion regarding non-conventional treatments. This does not mean that I or BenzoBuddies endorse such "treatments". However, many members read about such things elsewhere, so I think it is better that they can discuss these matters here and receive feedback from those with a more skeptical and inquiring attitude. It is not easy for most of those going through benzo withdrawal to objectively evaluate evidence and research, especially when so many people have a vested interest in deceiving people into buying their products and services.

 

It is unfortunate that there are so many charlatans out there, as some of these "treatments" and therapies might be of benefit in the treatment of some medical problems. However, they should be properly and scientifically evaluated. This kind of talk sometimes scares people. They blame science for their predicament, when actually, it is the failure to apply the scientific method and principles that leads to specific  drug treatments continuing to be propagated when the evidence suggests that these treatments should be withdrawn or curtailed.

 

I'll check out your links.

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Hey Albie,

 

Personally, saunas even BEFORE benzo's make me feel lightheaded, bringing on anxiety...that's just personal experience. I read a doctors thread on the net, they were concerned about their patients and wanted to help minimize their patients withdrawal symptoms, and large doses of niacin were mentioned. Supposedly they fill in spots on receptors, without impeding healing. I have tried niacin, I don't think it works for me, but I'm too scared to try larger doses...I never went above 25 mgs..however sublingual B vitamins when I'm feeling at my worst do seem to calm my mind...but the sublinguals don't have super huge doses like pills do because they go directly into the bloodstream and therefore the body can use more.

 

As far as detoxing goes, I'm all for it, but NOT during healing from benzo's. In the past, I have used cleanses and detoxing herbs at various times, with good success, but I felt like absolute crap while doing so...something NONE of us need on top of our other issues.

 

If it works for you, then more power to you, thanks for sharing...but personally I can't advocate these types of treatments during this very sensitive time.

 

take care

cupcake

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Ryan,

 

I checked out the links. If you come across any research about the effect relating to benzodiazepines, I'd appreciate it. As it stands, I am not aware of any proper and rigorous research regarding this effect and benzodiazepines. It seems like a plausible theory to me, but not yet proven (or statistically proven). This does not mean that it does not occur, of course. As far as I'm concerned, anecdotal evidence aside (reports from members suggests that such an effect might be real), the jury is still out.

 

Let us know if you come across any more information.

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Ryan,

 

I checked out the links. If you come across any research about the effect relating to benzodiazepines, I'd appreciate it. As it stands, I am not aware of any proper and rigorous research regarding this effect and benzodiazepines. It seems like a plausible theory to me, but not yet proven (or statistically proven). This does not mean that it does not occur, of course. As far as I'm concerned, anecdotal evidence aside (reports from members suggests that such an effect might be real), the jury is still out.

 

Let us know if you come across any more information.

 

I think it's one of those things that is pretty widely accepted but difficult to test.  For example, how can one test the theory on a person while controlling for significant contributing variables - how much older was the person the second time around, what doses and durations were involved, what other drugs were involved in the detox, etc.  At the very least, I think we can say the anecdotal evidence is compelling enough for Dr. Ashton, TRAP, and other relevant individuals/organizations to warn about it and it is a much more plausible explanation for the severity of Albie's subsequent withdrawal than the sauna theory. 

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Hi Ryan,

 

A theoretical description of the specific mechanism would be nice, but I agree, the proof is likely to be statistical in nature. I imagine it would take a lot of work and determination to produce such evidence. I don't really like unsubstantiated "truths", but I accept that it is sometimes unavoidable, at least in the short term. I understand that it is a well accepted "theory" in alcoholism, but I am not convinced that it deserves such status with benzodaizepines. I'm just expressing an opinion here, such is the state of play with issues surrounding benzodiazepine addiction/dependency.

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OK.

 

I love the heat ... love a sauna! But ... Scientology?

 

And Albie you didn't even know it was Scientology til you were in there?

 

5 hours and massive niacin doses?

 

Darn good job not killing any Scientologists.

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OK.

 

I love the heat ... love a sauna! But ... Scientology?

 

And Albie you didn't even know it was Scientology til you were in there?

 

5 hours and massive niacin doses?

 

Darn good job not killing any Scientologists.

 

It wasn't easy.  ;)   Yeah, I know it sounds nuts, and it was and so was I. I was in such a state of desperation and they do an outstanding job of selling their program over the phone without word one ever uttered about Scientology. Turns out, they don't actually practice or even preach Scientology at the rehab, but their detoxification "principles" are ode to L Ron Hubbard. It was an extremely weird place. I'd probably want to sue for all the false claims they made, were I not so busy just trying to keep working, keep withdrawing and survive this whole ordeal. No kidding about the 5 hours. I thought that sounded insane too, and it's probably not healthy for a lot of people, but I tolerated it really well. In fact, I felt great most of the time. And I've never stayed in a sauna for more the 25 or 30 minutes in my life previous to that. The key was drinking tons and tons of water. Again, I'm not advocating this nut house, but anecdotally you'd be simply amazed at some of the changes, especially to the skin, hair and eyes. I've got photographic "evidence" how much clearer, cleaner and healthier we all looked. Felt pretty darn good too.

 

Anyway, I'm not going to trumpet this program. And Ryan makes some excellent points. I really doubt this feeling so good was a function of flushing drug residuals as the folks at this rehab claim. But it was something. It's only anecdotal and not scientific, but that doesn't make it not so. I have no idea why the sauna made us feel and look so much better, but to say that the fact that I haven't felt as well during my second withdrawal is merely a function of kindling is just another theory -- one I don't happen to subscribe to, primarily because I allude mostly not to the fact that withdrawal symptoms are worse the second time around, but merely that the second withdrawal is devoid of some of those nice markers and indicators of improved health, such as feeling rested, looking more rested, clearer skin, brighter eyes, shinier hair, those kinds of things. Who knows, maybe it was all the water we drank.

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We allow for discussion regarding non-conventional treatments. This does not mean that I or BenzoBuddies endorse such "treatments". However, many members read about such things elsewhere, so I think it is better that they can discuss these matters here and receive feedback from those with a more skeptical and inquiring attitude. It is not easy for most of those going through benzo withdrawal to objectively evaluate evidence and research, especially when so many people have a vested interest in deceiving people into buying their products and services.

 

 

Exactly Colin. That's all I'm trying to do is facilitate a lively discussion regarding something I experienced that was purported to help with withdrawal. And, for whatever reason, even if their theories as to how it works are utterly inane, absurd and unsubstantiated, the fact remains (and, to me, it is a fact) that this sauna program, as nuts as it sounds, unequivocally increased my sense of health and well-being at the time. There are far too many uncontrolled variables to make any realistic comparison between that withdrawal and my withdrawal this time around, so I probably shouldn't have done that.  But just because something seems impossible to substantiate (and in this instance, probably is) doesn't necessarily make it false. It's hard to express and I hope I'm being clear that it is possible and in my case, it is the case that on the one hand I agree that the claims that this rehab makes probably are akin to "voodoo quackery" yet on the other hand, anecdotally, via dumb luck or what have you, I feel they may have stumbled upon something that actually benefited me during my withdrawal.

 

Ryan will probably have a field day with all of this, but that's okay.

 

Lastly I hope it was explicitly clear that I was not a proponent of this rehab nor am I advocating that anybody engage in this particular program. All in all, I was just looking for any explanation or thoughts as to why this program (i.e. the sauna, not the rehab) helped. Perhaps a discussion of the benefits/drawbacks of saunas, in general, would have been more on point.

 

To reel things in one notch, I just want to thank you once again, Colin for the incredible work you do in maintaining this wonderful site. It's truly been a life-saver for me and so many others. God Bless.

 

Albie

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To be clear, Albie, I wasn't coming down on you.  I am responding this way because I have also had numerous quacks try to sell me on detoxification and other junk science that could not possibly speed up the process of benzodiazepine recovery.  For healthcare professionals, and I use that term lightly, to even suggest these therapies as a healing mechanism shows that they don't understand even the fundamentals of benzodiazepine withdrawal.  So they're acting on physically and psychologically vulnerable people with potentially harmful treatments based on invalid information.  This is a very dangerous way to operate.

 

As far as the sauna making you feel good, it is always good to know a remedy that helps relax the body and mind during this process.  It's the part where they're selling it as a "detoxification" that ticks me off.

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Hey Ryan,

 

I didn't really think you were, but I surely appreciate the clarification. And you're so right, these so-called health care professionals prey upon people at their most vulnerable times and they do so to the tune of a very pretty penny i.e. these guys are not cheap. I have learned and received so much more support and good information on Benzo Buddies than I ever did at rehab or from any psychiatrist it's simply staggering.

 

Also, I think you're dead-on about their total lack of understanding how benzo withdrawal works and I agree their theory about the sauna re-stimulating drug residuals seems utterly absurd.

 

Believe me, it gets a lot worse. They even had an utterly inane theory that if you did have a negative reaction in the sauna e.g. you became dizzy or sick, they theorized that was a "drug turn-on" to use their terminology and (get this) that the thing to do was make you go back into the sauna for extra time until the "turn-on turned off again".  How the heck they ever came up with that theory is beyond me. I think they could literally kill somebody one of these days, adhering to these ridiculous principles.

 

 

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Hi Albie - interesting post about the saunas. I was referred to an environmental doctor in 2007 for MCS. He wanted me to go to 1 of 2 clinics in either Dallas or North Carolina for a month where they would stick you in a sauna for hours a day, feed you "whole foods" and do other stuff to "detoxify" your body.  The cost was 20k at one place, and 23k at the other and had to be paid up front out of pocket and did NOT include the cost of staying in their "special" apartments. I said no thanks.  But a friend had a dry sauna that I used twice for 10 minutes and it made me sick as all get out, along with anxiety, elevated blood pressure and heart rate. :P

 

I think some people can tolerate saunas quite well, but I know for me it was not a good experience.  Could be because I feel more symptomatic in hot weather, so that could have been the case.

 

I think we're all so different when it comes to withdrawal(s) and our bodies adjust at different rates at different times, age, etc.

 

I hope you feel better very soon :)

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Oh count me in for a lively discussion! ESP where the Scientologists are concerned!

 

 

Darn good job not killing any Scientologists.

 

It wasn't easy.  ;)  Yeah, I know it sounds nuts, and it was and so was I. I was in such a state of desperation and they do an outstanding job of selling their program over the phone without word one ever uttered about Scientology. Turns out, they don't actually practice or even preach Scientology at the rehab, but their detoxification "principles" are ode to L Ron Hubbard. It was an extremely weird place. I'd probably want to sue for all the false claims they made, were I not so busy just trying to keep working, keep withdrawing and survive this whole ordeal. No kidding about the 5 hours. I thought that sounded insane too, and it's probably not healthy for a lot of people, but I tolerated it really well. In fact, I felt great most of the time.

 

 

 

Well I was thinking about this whole situation and I think I would much rather be here in 5 hour long sauna land for "detox" than the places where they ... use drugs to get you ... off drugs.

 

I love a sauna way more than the next person.  It's so great that you had good results. I think there's also an excitement in any kind of "Program" that promises to help you get your life back from pills ... and the Scientologists are infamous for hating Psych Meds ... so they have that one tiny bright spot in their method.

 

The only problem is that I see how vulnerable people are to being scammed and taken advantage of when they are in withdrawal. I can imagine this program would vary with what pills you were on. I know in the beginning it woulda really hurt me. Now? Probably would be ok ... but I'm not on pills anymore.

 

The Scientologists are all over this town ... they target the people who have money and have "A Future." It's truly a cult ... hurts people ... steals form them ... lies to them.

 

But I do like a sauna!

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