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Hi my name is Ivan.

 

I have been posting recently on the Other Medications section of the Benzobuddies site under the title "Mirtazapine Withdrawal". I will briefly outline the situation that confronts me. I took Mirtazapine at a very high dose of 90mg for around eight to nine months after a very serious bout of depression. I was finding that it was interfering with my sleep. So I decided without consulting my psychiatrist to cut the dosage to 45mg for a few nights and see if my sleep improved. It did but I went into withdrawal which involved really nasty aching throughout my body. The psychiatrist tried reinstating the dose but the symptoms remained. He then tried stabilising me on a lower dose of 67.5mg with no change to my symptoms. So the psychiatrist then took me off this very high dose within eight days.

 

Since then I have had awful withdrawal symptoms which were really severe for the first six weeks and have during the last week dissipated somewhat but are still really noticeable. One of the consequences of this situation is that I needed sleep medication otherwise I could not sleep. So for the last 3 to 4 weeks I have been taking Zopiclone with some Endep at low doses. The Endep appeared to be having little positive impact on my sleep and was giving me an uncomfortable stomach so I stopped it completely last night. I had taken very little of the drug at very low levels.The dose of Zopiclone, however, has needed to be increased in order to get the same amount of sleep. I am concerned about addiction but the problem is that in order to function, I need adequate sleep.

 

I tried reducing the dosage over the last couple of nights from 1 1/2 7.5 mg tablets to 1 1/4 the night before last to 3/4 last night. The result has been very little sleep. This makes my withdrawal symptoms appear to be worse. My GP has assured me that Zopiclone and its benzodiazepine sister drug, Temazepam, are not too difficult to get off as long as I am conscious that I should not take ever increasing doses for an extended period of time.

 

This does put me in a catch 22 situation. I was sleeping ok before the withdrawal although I was experiencing difficulties getting to sleep. Now it would appear as if I have a dependency on this drug.

 

As I am still experiencing withdrawal symptoms from the Mirtazapine, this is not really the best time in my life to be without sleep. So I am thinking that I will persist with the Zopiclone until the withdrawal symptoms die away much more. Sadly, the problem is that I don't know how long that will take.

 

If anyone has anything to say that may help, your input would be much appreciated.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ivan.

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I was on 7mg of Zopiclone for sleep, but got switched over to a drug called Trazedone.  It is an SSRI with a sedating effect.  My doctor at the hospital said it is the lesser of all the evils out there.  Yes I will have to ween from it, but any of those Z Class drugs like Zopiclone are very hard to get off, just like trying to get off of a benzo!!! Maybe ask if Trazedone is suitable for you? Just an idea, totally your call and choice.  All the best,

Blacklablady ❤

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Thank you very much for this suggestion, Blacklablady. I took Endep for the same reason as you took Trazedone. Unfortunately, it didn't work. I will investigate the drug and mention it as a possibility to the psychiatrist when I see him this afternoon.

 

It is important to not only try an alternative to Zopiclone but to limit its dose; I am already finding that I need more and more of it (after less than a month on it) to get the same amount of sleep.

 

I will post an update later today.

 

Ivan.

 

 

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Hi again Blacklablady,

 

I discovered this afternoon that Trazodone is not available in Australia. I was taking Endep at 20mg until late last week. I got off it but have slept really badly since and the aching associated with the withdrawal has fired up again. So I might give the Endep another go. At really low doses it too can help with sleep and after a while with the kind of pain (parasthesia) I have been experiencing.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ivan.

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Dang that it is not available there!!! The only other thing I can suggest is to take melatonin with the Endep that didn't work, ONLY IF YOUR DOC SAYS THE 2 ARE FINE TO TAKE TOGETHER. My doctor has me taking 6mg a night along with the Trazodone.  I have no clue if it does anything but I am willing to try anything to help me as I was only getting 2 to 3 hours a night.  I was unable to think clearly and was a crying mess, like a tired child, before I got put on the Trazedone.  Now I get 7 to a max of 8 hours and am able to function a lot better than before.  Wishing you all the best ❤
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Thanks for your kind thoughts. It's great to read you are getting more sleep, Blacklablady. I tried taking the Endep last night and it seemed to help. I was able to get more sleep with less Zopiclone. I only took 10mg but may up it tonight as I have a very busy day tomorrow. I have some Melatonin and will talk to my GP on Thursday about whether it's worth a try. However, I think two drugs are enough to be going on with for the time being.

 

Best of luck,

 

Ivan.

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Here's an update four days on from my last post. The aching from the withdrawal from Mirtazapine continues. If I were to be asked, "Has it improved?", my answer would be yes. Compared to the brutal savagery of the aching two weeks ago, it is less painful. But it is still very much evident and imposes itself on my thoughts every minute I am awake.

 

I have been trying really hard to keep the addictive drug Zopiclone as low as I possibly can; last night I got a reasonable amount of sleep with one tablet of 7.5mg and a 10mg tablet of Endep. I find if I take a higher dose of the antidepressant, I get a really uncomfortable stomach. I am just hoping that this drug holds my sleep together so that I don't need any more Zopiclone other than the two half tablets I take in the night. I have to take it this way because the drug is so short acting.

 

If you were to say to me: "How long do you think this withdrawal will take to end?", I would say at least three months and that is probably being optimistic. After three months of these sensations and seven and a half weeks since I took the drug at all, I feel as if this aching has become a part of me. It seems at times as if it will never go away.

 

All my plans for the future are on hold; my job is to survive by keeping as active and as fit as I can. I have already lost out on a trip overseas. My wife is going with her sister.

 

And I can't help feeling angry and frustrated with the psychiatrist who prescribed a ludicrously high dose of 90mg Mirtazapine each day. And I still blame myself for not contesting this and not finding out about the dangers that come with high doses of antidepressants.

 

At least I can now say to myself that I am no longer on such a high dose and that I will never allow myself to be on a dose like this again. It is also important for me to find ways to keep control of my life so that I don't get into a position once again when psychiatrists are free to do what they like with me.

 

I know they believe they are acting in their patients' best interests but the sad thing is - as I can attest from bitter experience - that they frequently get it wrong and inflict harm on those they are trying to help.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ivan.

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Try to hang in there Ivan!  Sorry to hear you could not go on the trip with your wife and sister.  I also had to give up going to our family cottage.  This is the first year in my LIFE of 45 yrs I have not made it there bc my SX's have been too powerful!!! But I know when I am free I will be back!  We just have to try to survive and persevere!!! Glad your sleep has improved, as sleep makes everything more doable!  Good luck! ❤
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Any kind of z drug should not be given, actually in my country is not allowed to be given, for more than 14 days!!

It makes as dependent as any benzo and needs to be tapered exact the same way. The fact that you even combine it with a SSRI is not a good idea either. I do not want to scare you, but its playing bingo. in the end you do not know is it the withdrawal from mirtazapine or tolerance from zopiclone or the combination of these 2, or the SSRI developing side effects.

Most of us have to go through months with insomnia - I know how hard this is, but if you continue to search for a new med in order to get sleep - well, you cannot win in the end, because withdrawal from meds comes with insomnia. Not forever, by the way.

I was once polydrugged and it all started exactly like your story here. For me it turned out that the decision to taper each med and stay off everything was the best in the end. Cause in the end, I did not know anymore - is it tolerance, kindling, side effect, combined effect, withdrawal, mental illness or what.

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Here are my replies to Blacklablady's and Marigold's posts.

 

Blacklablady, Yes it is good to get sleep but I really do wish I didn't have to take Zopiclone. As soon as my symptoms from withdrawal relent sufficiently I will be trying ever so hard to get off it. And I wish you well in your ongoing struggles.

 

Thanks very much for your thoughts. I will update you as things hopefully improve and be assured I want to get off this Z drug asap. I do hope you get to spend time at your cottage soon.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ivan.

 

Hi Marigold,

 

I sent you this message but I will post it here as well:

 

Hi Marigold,

 

I agree with your advice that Zopiclone should be avoided. Sadly, seven weeks ago after trying to survive a withdrawal from a massive dose of Mirtazapine drug free, I simply could not survive without sleep from the severe, relentless aching I was experiencing after the Mirtazapine was finally stopped after attempts to stabilise me on high and not so high doses. My bed was like a torture chamber as the most I could get was four hours of highly interrupted sleep. So I opted for the Zopiclone in desperation. Soon I was taking two 7.5mg tablets. When the Endep was introduced I was able to get the dose back to just one tablet. I have tried to take that amount or occasionally a quarter tablet more. I am now in the process of removing the Endep and will most likely take no more from tonight.

 

Unfortunately after eight weeks being off the drug the aching continues but at a lower level. I am now dependent on the Zopiclone for sleep and I suspect if I try to reduce it as I did a week ago, I will get very little sleep and be unable to deal with the symptoms I am experiencing from the withdrawal which are very unpleasant.

 

Having been addicted to benzos before I am very aware that I must try as hard as I can to limit the Z drug which I realise is extremely addictive. As soon as I feel that the aching is becoming more manageable I will try to get off the Zopiclone. It is a balancing act but the reality is that I need sleep and if I don't get it I cannot undertake the volunteer roles I perform.

 

To add to your point about benzos and Z drugs I have a psychiatrist who is so unbelievably casual about his prescription of drugs. That is why I am in this mess because he prescribed a ludicrously high daily dose of 90mg of Mirtazapine. Last week when I was struggling with the aching he prescribed 2mg of Clonazepam. When I discovered its Valium equivalency, I was horrified; he was in effect putting me on 40mg of Valium plus the Zopiclone. My faith in him disappeared at that point.

 

 

 

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Today after my second attempt to reduce the Endep down to zero I am absolutely dog tired. I have no idea how the Endep is working to give me better sleep in addition the one 7.5mg tablet of Zopiclone but it appears as if it does. Even though I get an uncomfortable stomach, I am going to return to 20mg Endep. The one major advantage I see from doing this is that I have been able to hold the dose of Zopiclone to 7.5mg which is equivalent to 5mg Valium. Without the Endep to structure my sleep better I fear I will be tempted to take more and more of the Zopiclone.

 

Withdrawal from 90mg Mirtazapine is a truly terrible thing to have to endure and sleep is absolutely essential in the face of it. Once these symptoms of constant aching relent, I will do everything I can to get off the two drugs which now sadly are essential to keeping me doing things. Getting out and about is so important in the face of this.

 

And I am able to tell myself that to reach an equivalent of 90mg Mirtazapine I would have to take Endep for ten and a half days.

 

I am so sorry if I am not following a set of strict guidelines but withdrawal from huge doses of Mirtazapine after taking it for ten months really is in uncharted territory.

 

My challenge - if I do recover from this - is to decide whether I will take antidepressants again. At this point in spite of taking a low dose of Endep my inclination once I get off it is to avoid antidepressants. I have no doubt that they do work for some people but I cannot think of one that has worked for me or hasn't given side effects or withdrawal.

 

That's all for now.

 

And thank you Blacklablady and Marigold for your thoughts and encouragement.

 

Bye,

 

Ivan.

 

 

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In the end you will have to face insomnia and go through it. I assume there will be no other way. These meds just work that way, they mess up with your natural sleep. But as you can see 1001 times here on bb, a lot of people have still their life and insomnia at the same time. Its exactly the drug who tells you that this insomnia will kill you.
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I absolutely agree with you that there will come a time when I am going to have to endure insomnia. As you correctly say that is an inevitable consequence of taking sleeping pills. But at the moment the intensity of the withdrawal symptoms from Mirtazapine are so great I need to have a sleep. When I tried to go with extremely little sleep, I was in terrible trouble and had a great deal of difficulty getting through any day. The assurance from my GP that the level of the Endep is very low and my determination to keep the Zopiclone at the equivalent of 5mg of Valium give me some degree of confidence that when the withdrawal symptoms eventually die down that my task in getting off Zopiclone won’t be too difficult. I have succeeded in getting off temazepam and Mogadon in the past so I believe I can get off this drug. Course it goes without saying I hate being on these two drugs but I just have to accept that I’m on them for the time being.
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I absolutely agree with you that there will come a time when I am going to have to endure insomnia. As you correctly say that is an inevitable consequence of taking sleeping pills. But at the moment the intensity of the withdrawal symptoms from Mirtazapine are so great I need to have a sleep. When I tried to go with extremely little sleep, I was in terrible trouble and had a great deal of difficulty getting through any day. The assurance from my GP that the level of the Endep is very low and my determination to keep the Zopiclone at the equivalent of 5mg of Valium give me some degree of confidence that when the withdrawal symptoms eventually die down that my task in getting off Zopiclone won’t be too difficult. I have succeeded in getting off temazepam and Mogadon in the past so I believe I can get off this drug. Course it goes without saying I hate being on these two drugs but I just have to accept that I’m on them for the time being.

 

oh I understand your reasons, they seem to be quite popular. I have thought like you as well before I finally had to face tolerance from 3 drugs at the same time. I wish you the best, just keep in mind to taper the zopiclone like a benzo / the ashton protocol. The statement from your GP is radically dangerous. They always tell us its just a low dosage. It does not depend on the dosage. But I do not want to frighten you. You have a plan and made your decision, I am sure you will follow your goals and get there! :smitten:

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The aching from antidepressant withdrawal is gradually dissipating. Soon it will be time to start withdrawing from Zopiclone. The Ashton Manual states that it is possible to complete a taper directly from Zopiclone without switching to Valium but the advice is to go down the equivalent of 1mg of Valium every 1 to 2 weeks. I can cut the 7.5mg tablet into 4 bits each equivalent to 1.25mg of Valium. It should be noted that I have been on the Zopiclone for about six weeks. The dose has varied but I am now getting sufficient sleep on the equivalent of 6.25mg for the last two nights. Before that I was taking the equivalent of 5mg of Valium for a week. The antidepressants Endep on a low dose of 20mg seems to have stabilised my sleep so that I have been able to keep from increasing the dose of Zopiclone. In total I have only taken 53 of the 7.5 mg Zopiclone tablets. I think I should get off the Zopiclone first and then wait for a few weeks as advised by the Ashton Manual prior to getting off the Endep. The concern for me is the aching is still there. I tried to reduce the Zopiclone a couple of weeks ago and was overwhelmed by a lack of sleep whilst the aching appeared to be stronger.

 

At the moment I desperately need sleep and am not really getting enough. But at the same time I don’t want to become so addicted to the Zopiclone that I keep taking more and more of it.

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The aching from antidepressant withdrawal is gradually dissipating. Soon it will be time to start withdrawing from Zopiclone. The Ashton Manual states that it is possible to complete a taper directly from Zopiclone without switching to Valium but the advice is to go down the equivalent of 1mg of Valium every 1 to 2 weeks. I can cut the 7.5mg tablet into 4 bits each equivalent to 1.25mg of Valium. It should be noted that I have been on the Zopiclone for about six weeks. The dose has varied but I am now getting sufficient sleep on the equivalent of 6.25mg for the last two nights. Before that I was taking the equivalent of 5mg of Valium for a week. The antidepressants Endep on a low dose of 20mg seems to have stabilised my sleep so that I have been able to keep from increasing the dose of Zopiclone. In total I have only taken 53 of the 7.5 mg Zopiclone tablets. I think I should get off the Zopiclone first and then wait for a few weeks as advised by the Ashton Manual prior to getting off the Endep. The concern for me is the aching is still there. I tried to reduce the Zopiclone a couple of weeks ago and was overwhelmed by a lack of sleep whilst the aching appeared to be stronger.

 

At the moment I desperately need sleep and am not really getting enough. But at the same time I don’t want to become so addicted to the Zopiclone that I keep taking more and more of it.

 

As I said the withdrawal from a sleep aid will come with insomnia. But it does not have to be for a long time. At the moment I am still functioning with only 2 hours sleep per night. Its a difference if you are not getting sleep cause of withdrawal or "just" not getting sleep. I would start to taper as soon as possible no matter if you get some sleepless nights or not, in no case I would updose. But 6 weeks are an already very long time and I would not want to risk to get tolerance.

Its always like you reduce something and then symptoms may become worse FIRST, but then it balances itself out again.

What do you have in strategies, skills, alternative meds and helpers for insomnia?

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Thanks very much for your feedback, Marigold,

 

Throughout the time I have been taking Zopiclone, I have felt uneasy about it. I am aware that this drug is highly addictive. In the middle of this week, I was confronted by the reality that I had three very busy days ahead as I run classes as a volunteer. On Wednesday I also had to give a short speech about a programme I am involved in. So I said to myself that I needed sleep. That is when I upped the dose by a quarter of a tablet which moved me up to the equivalent of 6.25mgs of Valium. Last night I reduced it again to 5mg equivalent. I did sleep - maybe for 4 to 5 hours - but I now feel very weird. It is probably a combination of withdrawal from one drug and withdrawal from another which I took to help me deal with the withdrawal symptoms of the first drug. This is typical of many people's experience of psychiatric drugs - including mine; one ends up taking drugs to counteract the effects of other drugs.

 

I looked at the Ashton Manual and the guidelines are to come down gradually from a level like mine by reducing 1mg Valium equivalent every week or two. So I will be sticking with 7.5mg Zopiclone (5mg Valium equivalent) until at least next Thursday night. I will see the GP on Thursday morning so we can discuss this. He has successfully assisted some of his patients through this kind of withdrawal. I might need to change to Valium at some stage but it doesn't appear to give me any sleep. So I would prefer a direct taper. How long I spend on each level as I go down will depend on how I feel and what the GP says.

 

You ask about strategies. Well, I am going to try to be as active as possible every day. I will walk for 40 minutes a day religiously. I will try not to dwell on the sensations flooding my body and get on with things. I have been doing this already throughout the extremely severe withdrawal from Mirtazapine for over three months. The anti-depressant Endep is helping with my sleep so I will keep taking 20mg of that drug daily until some time after I have got over the two withdrawals. This is a very low dose - 10 and a half times less than I was taking of Mirtazapine which was a ludicrously high dose.

 

I will also try not to get angry. Having already managed to get off a combination of Ativan and Mogadon last year I will keep reminding myself that this can be done. I am not sure yet how I am going to handle the period when I won't sleep. I will just try my best day by day.

 

I see from your signature that you have every reason to be unhappy about the impact of psychiatric drugs on your life. I hope everything is going well with you now - well at least as well as possible.

 

Psychiatry has been disastrous for me but because I keep falling into depression I keep ending up in their hands.

 

At the moment I am just focussing on getting through this and trying to make something of my life. Thanks to ECT many of my memories have been taken away from me which is truly devastating. And after that I entrusted myself into the hands of an experienced psychiatrist who has now inflicted two withdrawals me.

 

Thanks again for your support. Best of luck with your issues,

 

Best wishes,

 

Ivan.

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Thanks very much for your feedback, Marigold,

 

Throughout the time I have been taking Zopiclone, I have felt uneasy about it. I am aware that this drug is highly addictive. In the middle of this week, I was confronted by the reality that I had three very busy days ahead as I run classes as a volunteer. On Wednesday I also had to give a short speech about a programme I am involved in. So I said to myself that I needed sleep. That is when I upped the dose by a quarter of a tablet which moved me up to the equivalent of 6.25mgs of Valium. Last night I reduced it again to 5mg equivalent. I did sleep - maybe for 4 to 5 hours - but I now feel very weird. It is probably a combination of withdrawal from one drug and withdrawal from another which I took to help me deal with the withdrawal symptoms of the first drug. This is typical of many people's experience of psychiatric drugs - including mine; one ends up taking drugs to counteract the effects of other drugs.

 

I looked at the Ashton Manual and the guidelines are to come down gradually from a level like mine by reducing 1mg Valium equivalent every week or two. So I will be sticking with 7.5mg Zopiclone (5mg Valium equivalent) until at least next Thursday night. I will see the GP on Thursday morning so we can discuss this. He has successfully assisted some of his patients through this kind of withdrawal. I might need to change to Valium at some stage but it doesn't appear to give me any sleep. So I would prefer a direct taper. How long I spend on each level as I go down will depend on how I feel and what the GP says.

 

You ask about strategies. Well, I am going to try to be as active as possible every day. I will walk for 40 minutes a day religiously. I will try not to dwell on the sensations flooding my body and get on with things. I have been doing this already throughout the extremely severe withdrawal from Mirtazapine for over three months. The anti-depressant Endep is helping with my sleep so I will keep taking 20mg of that drug daily until some time after I have got over the two withdrawals. This is a very low dose - 10 and a half times less than I was taking of Mirtazapine which was a ludicrously high dose.

 

I will also try not to get angry. Having already managed to get off a combination of Ativan and Mogadon last year I will keep reminding myself that this can be done. I am not sure yet how I am going to handle the period when I won't sleep. I will just try my best day by day.

 

I see from your signature that you have every reason to be unhappy about the impact of psychiatric drugs on your life. I hope everything is going well with you now - well at least as well as possible.

 

Psychiatry has been disastrous for me but because I keep falling into depression I keep ending up in their hands.

 

At the moment I am just focussing on getting through this and trying to make something of my life. Thanks to ECT many of my memories have been taken away from me which is truly devastating. And after that I entrusted myself into the hands of an experienced psychiatrist who has now inflicted two withdrawals me.

 

Thanks again for your support. Best of luck with your issues,

 

Best wishes,

 

Ivan.

 

Hey buddy,

 

I am just worried.

I can say that I have been thinking the same way as you. Without meds I will not survive depression, I will not survive insomnia, I will loose everything - so doctor, please tell me, what else can we do - well lets try this or that, in combination with this or that...

Since I am med free I have a normal sleepand I would say its much better than under sleep aids, depression has never been how it was before and under meds, same for panic and all other kind of "mental illnesses" that I was digaozed with. I am only sleepless because of noise outside, but even then I can function the next day and I would not freak out in panic about the thought that I might not get sleep the night.

 

You have already tapered 2 benzos last year? So you are still in withdrawal from these 2 meds for sure!

 

It worries me that you updose zopiclon. Thats what I meant when I spoke about alternative strategies. Taking more before stressful events or to prevent not to be functional, that is a dangerous game, in my eyes. You already take a med to help with sleep which you do not get because of withdrawal from another med. And in my opinion, since you said you did also taper ativan and a second med last year - hell, thats a lot...

 

I suffered from the worst depression ever and psychiatry has only lead to a low self-esteem, endless taper and withdrawals. I am so happy I could escape out of this system. Since I am medfree I never had a depression like I had under meds again. Panic and anxiety are gone totally and I have overcome a bad trauma from childhood without chemical help. For me it was a good decision to get rid of anything but the real good outcome is that I do not have these thoughts any more, like you have now, the conviction that you cannot survive just alone by yourself. That you will end up in the hands of psychiatrists again. I know what you are talking about, for years I had a big bag packed for the hospital, in case I would freak out again, and the feeling of being not safe inside myself - oh lord, thats tough.

 

You have already done a taper, so this means you can survive much more than you think. Lots of members here are totally med free today and went through a phase of insomnia. Insomnia is like "open the door to all inner monsters", I used to say. It is night, it is dark, your nerves are totally broken and then let the circus begin. The first 3-5 days you will think that you will just not survive. Spiraling, looping, horror. Then you will maybe experience that you get 1 hour per night, or 2 hours. Your body will get sleep, but you will not notice cause your CNS is over-aware and totally out of control. After a while you can become more "cool" and decided to watch TV all night or "pretend" to nap, cause you just won't let the nerves punish you all night. Then a period of depression, panic attacks. But then - somehow we become masters of insomnia and surrender. WE give up the fight. Nap in daytime, in the bus, even at work.. and with time, the body adjusts. Its like giving birth to a normal sleep and this takes time.

 

So, to make it short.. here are some strategies, just to let you know what has helped me:

 

Strategies which you should be able to practice BEFORE you start:

- Tai Chi

- breathing techniques

- long walks

- things to keep your hands busy, like painting, playing piano, cooking, whatever

- a cosy place to calm down in your house or apartment that only belongs to you

- buy medical/food helpers

- prepare an emergency kit: Mine contained teas (herbs), lavender capsules, chocolate, a teddybear, hot water bottle, ..

- write a text you can read when you are near to give up. I have written kind of cheerleading text messages every morning on my phone and sent it to myself - in order to read them in the middle of the night when I was freaking out like "you have done a taper before, you will not give up now, you can do that, any change always seems horrible fro you first but you can do it"

- organize a network of friends/people you can call or write anytime

 

 

Strategies when insomnia kicks in - for the nights:

- order Netflix/TV channel for bingewatching all night long:-)

- music/audio books

- other things that allow you to focus on while your eyes are closed

- pillows everywhere so you can switch rooms during the night

- Use teas and herbs, like lavender, passion flower, valerian root - also as oils or shower gels / parfumes

- stick to a healthy diet, some food makes us sleepy too

- try to accept the shit that is happening and do not fight, instead: surrender

- spend some hours in one room, then go into another room

- do things during the night that you would normally do in daytime, like loundry

 

 

Strategies how to survive the days without sleep:

- things you must focus on using the brain (crosswords, work...)

- things you focus on using the body (tai chi, exercising, walking... something that does not allow thinking)

- fruits and healthy smoothies

- sweets and sugars for emergency cases, even caffeine

- a teddybear to cry on

- something you can smash or bang on

- An informed friend you can call and who is willing to tell you not to give up

- Make things as easy as possible, cancel appointments as much as you can, no big events, no family discussions etc.

- take a holiday day, meaning in all this mess do something you would normally not do on normal days, like booking yourself a nice room in a hotel, cause when you are without sleep you can use the night just for yourself

- read the manual you prepared for yourself every morning or when needed

- allow yourself to look and act like a zombie in daytime, even at work. This will change but do not invest energy in wondering about that

- do not waste energy. If you feel to weak to cook, order food. if you don't have the power to work, miss one day at work and go the following day

- Do not forget to celebrate each night you have survived. At the end of one week you should buy yourself a gift. Not kidding, its an important sign to your inner self and the brain

- Be aware that other people do not care if you look bad or have a bad time. Tell them you had a party or watched netflix the hole night and they will be okey with it.

 

I think you can make it. Just trust yourself and dare it!!

 

hugs,

Marigold

 

 

 

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Thanks very much for this incredibly thoughtful reply, Marigold. I think I am able to go through withdrawal from Zopiclone but my aching from the Mirtazapine withdrawal is still severe. Coping with two withdrawals at once could be nigh on mission impossible. I will see my GP on Thursday and we will discuss strategies to avoid raising the Zopiclone further and even possibly reducing it. I am certain this will be the last time I will up-dose.

 

And for anyone who happens to read this post,the UK Daily Mail has been successful in its campaign to pressure the government to take action on the over-prescribing of psychiatric drugs. Here is a link to the article:

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7445657/One-four-people-hooked-prescription-drugs-official-review-calls-national-helpline.html

 

Or just Google The Daily Mail prescription drugs.

 

Marigold, I will update you on Thursday after I have seen the GP and tomorrow I will read your post very carefully again.

 

Thanks again,

 

Ivan.

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Thanks very much for this incredibly thoughtful reply, Marigold. I think I am able to go through withdrawal from Zopiclone but my aching from the Mirtazapine withdrawal is still severe. Coping with two withdrawals at once could be nigh on mission impossible. I will see my GP on Thursday and we will discuss strategies to avoid raising the Zopiclone further and even possibly reducing it. I am certain this will be the last time I will up-dose.

And for anyone who happens to read this post,the UK Daily Mail has been successful in its campaign to pressure the government to take action on the over-prescribing of psychiatric drugs. Here is a link to the article:

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7445657/One-four-people-hooked-prescription-drugs-official-review-calls-national-helpline.html

 

Or just Google The Daily Mail prescription drugs.

 

Marigold, I will update you on Thursday after I have seen the GP and tomorrow I will read your post very carefully again.

 

Thanks again,

 

Ivan.

 

What do you mean with this will be the last time you will up-dose? So you are planning to again updose?

I do not understand why you keep listening to a doctor who puts you on another med that made you addicted. Its clear that he or she will either force you to take more of one med or add an additional med - because that is, what they are taught to do.

 

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I need to clarify something, Marigold,

 

It was a psychiatrist who prescribed all of the drugs I have been taking over the last year and a half. By what was probably a fluke I got out of deep depression in the same week as he prescribed Ativan for me. Because I had been so deeply depressed he decided that I needed very high doses of antidepressants. I was uncomfortable with this and with the benzodiazepines and I kept asking to get off drugs. By the end of 2018 I had succeeded in reducing the number of tablets I was taking from maybe 9 in the middle of last year to two. I was pleased with this achievement. I was concerned about such a high dose of Mirtazapine but the psychiatrist reassured me that even if the amount was high it was ok. He didn’t warn about the dangers of cutting the drug and I had got off 30mg in the past with no problems. Moreover, I withdrew from 45mg of Lexapro without any side effects.

 

Then came my mistake which was not to research antidepressant discontinuation a term I had never heard of. Once I came off the drug completely I was living in hell. The aching was overwhelming. And I could hardly sleep. So I reluctantly took the Zopiclone. It was a life saver. Without it there was every chance I could have committed suicide. I managed to keep going once I got some sleep. Even now nine weeks since I stopped the drug I ache but it’s now bearable.

 

I believe the reason I have been able to keep the dose down at this level is because of the antidepressant Endep. I am actually taking it against the advice of the psychiatrist because I don’t want to keep increasing the Zopiclone.

 

My GP is much more conservative about drug prescribing. He tries to avoid benzodiazepines and keeps his patients on the lowest possible dose of antidepressants. He has been seeing me regularly to help me keep on track. He isn’t the one who the huge amount of drugs. The psychiatrist did and he is in France at a conference at the moment.

 

It is the psychiatrist who is guilty of overprescribing. He continues to maintain that I need antidepressants to protect me. He is very much committed to the chemical imbalance theory as a cause of depression. I have had three major bouts of depression all of which started when I was drug free. I cannot dismiss this reality. And as I am struggling to keep afloat in the face of this awful withdrawal from Mirtazapine, I cannot start a process of another withdrawal from Zopiclone. I tried reducing the dose two weeks ago and I had three terrible days without much sleep. Not only was I exhausted the aching seemed even worse as a result.

 

At the moment I have to be realistic; I want to try to live a life as normal as possible. Today I made two presentations to groups of adults. Without sleep this would not have been possible.

 

I do understand that you have been damaged by psychiatric drugs. I do appreciate why you are so committed to and proud of being free from psychiatric drugs. But in spite of all the damage psychiatry and psychiatrists have inflicted on me, I am not going to dismiss psychiatric drugs entirely. I did this once in 2013. Three years later I fell into deep dire depression. I don’t want this to happen to me again. The result of my last was 56 ECT treatments with a massive loss of memory and two withdrawals from two different psychiatric drugs. So from now on I am to be pragmatic rather than ideological about my situation.

 

Thanks so much for the immense amount of thought you put into the previous post. When I do come to the point when I am ready to get off Zopiclone I will use many of your suggestions.

 

Ivan.

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I need to clarify something, Marigold,

 

It was a psychiatrist who prescribed all of the drugs I have been taking over the last year and a half. By what was probably a fluke I got out of deep depression in the same week as he prescribed Ativan for me. Because I had been so deeply depressed he decided that I needed very high doses of antidepressants. I was uncomfortable with this and with the benzodiazepines and I kept asking to get off drugs. By the end of 2018 I had succeeded in reducing the number of tablets I was taking from maybe 9 in the middle of last year to two. I was pleased with this achievement. I was concerned about such a high dose of Mirtazapine but the psychiatrist reassured me that even if the amount was high it was ok. He didn’t warn about the dangers of cutting the drug and I had got off 30mg in the past with no problems. Moreover, I withdrew from 45mg of Lexapro without any side effects.

 

Then came my mistake which was not to research antidepressant discontinuation a term I had never heard of. Once I came off the drug completely I was living in hell. The aching was overwhelming. And I could hardly sleep. So I reluctantly took the Zopiclone. It was a life saver. Without it there was every chance I could have committed suicide. I managed to keep going once I got some sleep. Even now nine weeks since I stopped the drug I ache but it’s now bearable.

 

I believe the reason I have been able to keep the dose down at this level is because of the antidepressant Endep. I am actually taking it against the advice of the psychiatrist because I don’t want to keep increasing the Zopiclone.

 

My GP is much more conservative about drug prescribing. He tries to avoid benzodiazepines and keeps his patients on the lowest possible dose of antidepressants. He has been seeing me regularly to help me keep on track. He isn’t the one who the huge amount of drugs. The psychiatrist did and he is in France at a conference at the moment.

 

It is the psychiatrist who is guilty of overprescribing. He continues to maintain that I need antidepressants to protect me. He is very much committed to the chemical imbalance theory as a cause of depression. I have had three major bouts of depression all of which started when I was drug free. I cannot dismiss this reality. And as I am struggling to keep afloat in the face of this awful withdrawal from Mirtazapine, I cannot start a process of another withdrawal from Zopiclone. I tried reducing the dose two weeks ago and I had three terrible days without much sleep. Not only was I exhausted the aching seemed even worse as a result.

 

At the moment I have to be realistic; I want to try to live a life as normal as possible. Today I made two presentations to groups of adults. Without sleep this would not have been possible.

 

I do understand that you have been damaged by psychiatric drugs. I do appreciate why you are so committed to and proud of being free from psychiatric drugs. But in spite of all the damage psychiatry and psychiatrists have inflicted on me, I am not going to dismiss psychiatric drugs entirely. I did this once in 2013. Three years later I fell into deep dire depression. I don’t want this to happen to me again. The result of my last was 56 ECT treatments with a massive loss of memory and two withdrawals from two different psychiatric drugs. So from now on I am to be pragmatic rather than ideological about my situation.

 

Thanks so much for the immense amount of thought you put into the previous post. When I do come to the point when I am ready to get off Zopiclone I will use many of your suggestions.

 

Ivan.

 

I need to clarify, as well.

I am not forcing you to get rid of all meds as soon as possible. I just said, after all the meds you cannot know if you are in withdrawal and zopiclone is highly addictive as well. And that I think the thought to updose in case you have a stressful event or in order to function would be necessary, is dangerous.

I did ask you about your strategies and you wrote several times that you updosed and in this last comment you said you took the additional AD against the will of your doctor. I am just confused about all the dosages and meds.

If you had 3 major depressions without meds, - how did you treat them besides meds? Obviously medication seems not to be a longterm solution for you, right? Its logical that after having stopped a chemical med, you body needs to rebalance and this takes time. You will be more vulnerable and this is the time to learn to cope without meds. Of course all the things you surpassed with meds will then come by again, but this does not mean, you will not be able to cope and to overcome crisis in the future.

In the end, its your body, and you have to find out what is the best for you. And I just want to say that I once thought I would never overcome a PTSD without therapists, doctors, meds, - but it was possible later. I am not an enemy of them. But for me it was 10 years wasted and runining my health and with people who still believe in the old theory of chemical imbalance - I mean, you just cannot work with them. Thats why I searched for alternative strategies, therapies and naturopaths etc. -

Wishing you the best,

Marigold

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I have read your post carefully, Marigold.However, this withdrawal from Mirtazapine so severe that I have to sleep. If I don’t sleep, I will go mad. I now know how heroin addicts or an OxyContin@ addicts must feel when they try to come off those drugs.  I would really like to be drug free.

 

I did see my doctor today. We made an agreement that I would not updose between now and the next time I see him. He said that in the near future I would have to come off this Zopiclone using the Ashton Method. And the only reason I am taking a very small dose of Endep is to prevent me from taking any more zopiclone. I can already see that I’m going to have trouble with sleep if I stay on the dose of 7.5 mg. However, I will just have to put up with that and not delude myself that there isn’t going to be a time when insomnia is going to be a real problem.

 

The GP assured me that a low dose of Endep is not dangerous. All I can do is hang in there and hope that this terrible withdrawal from the Mirtazapine eventually subsides.

 

And I don’t think that it’s likely that at any point in the future I’m going to be entirely drug free. Even though I am not at all convinced that the chemical imbalance theory is correct, I have to accept that three times I fell into serious depression and every time I was not taking an anti-depressant.

 

Thanks again for all the thought you have given to your posts. I’m sorry but at the moment I’m not in a position to adopt your approach. If I do, I could very well end up in deep depression as a result from a withdrawal from an anti-depressant. Wouldn’t that be ironic?

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I have read your post carefully, Marigold.However, this withdrawal from Mirtazapine so severe that I have to sleep. If I don’t sleep, I will go mad. I now know how heroin addicts or an OxyContin@ addicts must feel when they try to come off those drugs.  I would really like to be drug free.

 

I did see my doctor today. We made an agreement that I would not updose between now and the next time I see him. He said that in the near future I would have to come off this Zopiclone using the Ashton Method. And the only reason I am taking a very small dose of Endep is to prevent me from taking any more zopiclone. I can already see that I’m going to have trouble with sleep if I stay on the dose of 7.5 mg. However, I will just have to put up with that and not delude myself that there isn’t going to be a time when insomnia is going to be a real problem.

 

The GP assured me that a low dose of Endep is not dangerous. All I can do is hang in there and hope that this terrible withdrawal from the Mirtazapine eventually subsides.

 

And I don’t think that it’s likely that at any point in the future I’m going to be entirely drug free. Even though I am not at all convinced that the chemical imbalance theory is correct, I have to accept that three times I fell into serious depression and every time I was not taking an anti-depressant.

 

Thanks again for all the thought you have given to your posts. I’m sorry but at the moment I’m not in a position to adopt your approach. If I do, I could very well end up in deep depression as a result from a withdrawal from an anti-depressant. Wouldn’t that be ironic?

 

Sorry, but I was not talking about an approach. I thought I was giving you support how to overcome withdrawal and maybe stay away from the meds in the future because you stated that you are not feeling well under the meds. I wish you the best and will now skip from this post. All I wanted is to share that it is possible even when you are coming from a history full of depression, to finally have a life, a good life without meds. Thats all. That is not an approach and I think it is not fair to call it that way, but okey, I can let go - take care!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks to my withdrawal symptoms from Mirtazapine easing significantly early last week, I have started cutting the Zopiclone. I started taking this drug on 23rd July. I was on an average of about 1 and a quarter 7.5mg tablets which is the equivalent of 6.25 mg of Valium. I am now down to 5/8ths of a tablet. I have been cutting on a daily or once every two days.

 

My dosage of Endep is now 10mg rather than 20mg. I had to reduce it because I had really uncomfortable stomach problems. I seem to be ok for sleep but have some side effects from withdrawal: weird sensations in the body. As I now see this drug as poison to my bady, I want to get off it asap. My feeling is that if I am getting enough sleep without it, why would I want it in my body? I only took it because the aching was so awful from the "discontinuation" of the Mirtazapine. The Endep is at a very low dose so I will think about getting off that as soon as I can after I have got off the Zopiclone. I am doing this without input from my GP or psychiatrist as they are both on holidays at the moment. And my GP has never got anyone off this drug as he never uses it. The psychiatrist just wants to prescribe drugs. I doubt if he knows that much about getting people off Zopiclone either.

 

The literature on the internet talks mostly about rebound insomnia. That hasn't really been an issue so far; it is the unpleasant sensations which are affecting me. But that could be a return of the Mirtazapine withdrawal.

 

I really loathe taking psychiatric drugs. But the psychiatrist maintains I have to as I have experienced three major bouts of depression in the last twelve years. But after the experience with the Mirtazapine and his ludicrous proposal for me to take 2mg of Clonazeam to cope with the aching, I simply do not trust him. It is really difficult to know who to turn to. If I don't take anti-depressants, I expose myself to the dangers of depression. If I do take them, I risk another withdrawal like the horrific one I have gone through in the last four months.

 

Anyway thanks for reading this. Best wishes,

 

Ivan.

 

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