La Casa Hispana

[[Buddie]]

Acabo de encontrar un link que lo explica a la perfección.

https://www.fondodeculturaeconomica.com/obra/suma/r1/buscar.asp?word2=ustedes%20/%20vosotros

Muy buen artículo, que señala que detrás de la pérdida de vosotros en América Latina está la pérdida de la distinción social que hizo necesario un pronombre familiar y un pronombre formal. Algo similar existe en inglés. A veces no está claro si "you" se refiere a una persona o más de una, por lo que la gente ha inventado formas como "you all" o "y'all" o "you guys" o "yous". La palabra "you" es originalmente plural. Las formas singulares eran "thou" (como "tu") y "thee"(como "te"), pero cuando te dirigías a un superior, te referías a ellos en plural, como también se referían a sí mismos en plural. El Rey o la Reina - o el Papa - no diría "I am very pleased", sino "We are very pleased." Entonces, cuando se dirigiera a ellos, usaría el plural: no "thou" sino "You"; no "thy" sino "Your." Es por eso que diría "Your Majesty" y nunca "Thy Majesty", o "Your Holiness" y nunca "Thy Holiness" para el Papa. Después del Renacimiento y el surgimiento de las ciudades y el debilitamiento de todo el sistema feudal, la gente tuvo la idea de que todos merecían el mismo respeto que la nobleza, y así comenzaron a dirigirse a todos como "You" en lugar de "thou". Todos, es decir, excepto Dios, a quien seguimos dirigiéndonos como "Thou": "Our Father Who art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done..." etc. Nos dirigimos a Dios con la forma familiar, como nos dirigimos a nuestros padres. (Es irónico que pudiéramos dirigirnos a Dios como un familiar, pero tuvimos que mostrar más respeto al Papa. Jaja) Así que aparentemente el uso de Ustedes en lugar de vosotros indica una pérdida de la distinción entre los clases - al menos según el Sr. Moreno de Alba. Gracias por el enlace y por la explicación. Supongo que yo usaré vosotros por aquí, a menos hasta que otros se quejen.

Click here for English translation

[[Buddie]]

Francamente [...] estoy impactada con tu dominio del castellano. No conozco a ningún angloparlante capaz de escribir así en español. No había caído en la razón de la pérdida del tú en América latina. ¿Deduces que es por la pérdida de clases sociales?  Podría ser, aunque a día de hoy la sociedad latinoamericana es más clasista que la española. Sin ánimo de ofender, es una realidad. El padre de mi hija es peruano y así lo atestigua. Pero tal vez tengas razón. Muy interesante tu explicación sobre cómo you sustituyó a thou, thee, y se perdieron esas fórmulas de respeto. Enseño inglés a españoles y se lían mucho con el you. Curioso que el papa merezca un término de mayor respeto que el mismo Dios. En cuanto al "y'all", yo nunca había escuchado esa expresión hasta que vi la serie "Nashville" y me pareció ideal cómo todos decían y'all. Hice un gran esfuerzo para no empezar a hablar como ellos, ya que en una española quedaría ridículo decir y'all jaja. Pero quedaba muy cute cuando lo decían ellos. Me sorprende tu explicación de cómo el thou y el thy desaparecen a partir del renacimiento como resultado de igualar las clases sociales. Me pregunto entonces porqué no ocurrió lo mismo en España. Sé que aquí la iglesia católica prohibía leer a la gente corriente. Ese es el principal motivo por el que llevamos tal atraso respecto al mundo anglosajón. A anglosajones y germanos les llegó la cultura gracias a lutero que decidió que todo el mundo debía aprender a leer para interpretar la biblia cada uno a su manera. Sin embargo, la iglesia católica nunca quiso que el vulgo leyera, para mantenerles así subyugados e ignorantes. Esto lo arrastramos hasta el día de hoy. No encuentro NADA útil en la web, en castellano, para ayudar a dejar las benzodiazepinas. Sin embargo en inglés está todo. Me parte el alma pensar en españoles con síndrome de retirada y sin tener ni idea de Io que les ocurre, sólo porque no hablan inglés. La comunicación es lo que lleva a la evolución, como se demostró con los neandertales. Voy a intentar dormir que aquí es la una de la madrugada. [...], ya nos contarás cómo has logrado ese dominio del castellano. A este paso nos tienes que dar clases. Buddies latinos por favor participen, no nos dejen solos que también ayuda a curarse poder tener un grupo de apoyo en nuestro idioma. Gracias [...] por abrirlo.

[[Buddie]]

Francamente [...] estoy impactada con tu dominio del castellano. No conozco a ningún angloparlante capaz de escribir así en español. No había caído en la razón de la pérdida del tú en América latina. ¿Deduces que es por la pérdida de clases sociales?  Podría ser, aunque a día de hoy la sociedad latinoamericana es más clasista que la española. Sin ánimo de ofender, es una realidad. El padre de mi hija es peruano y así lo atestigua. Pero tal vez tengas razón. Muy interesante tu explicación sobre cómo you sustituyó a thou, thee, y se perdieron esas fórmulas de respeto. Enseño inglés a españoles y se lían mucho con el you. Curioso que el papa merezca un término de mayor respeto que el mismo Dios. En cuanto al "y'all", yo nunca había escuchado esa expresión hasta que vi la serie "Nashville" y me pareció ideal cómo todos decían y'all. Hice un gran esfuerzo para no empezar a hablar como ellos, ya que en una española quedaría ridículo decir y'all jaja. Pero quedaba muy cute cuando lo decían ellos. Me sorprende tu explicación de cómo el thou y el thy desaparecen a partir del renacimiento como resultado de igualar las clases sociales. Me pregunto entonces porqué no ocurrió lo mismo en España. Sé que aquí la iglesia católica prohibía leer a la gente corriente. Ese es el principal motivo por el que llevamos tal atraso respecto al mundo anglosajón. A anglosajones y germanos les llegó la cultura gracias a lutero que decidió que todo el mundo debía aprender a leer para interpretar la biblia cada uno a su manera. Sin embargo, la iglesia católica nunca quiso que el vulgo leyera, para mantenerles así subyugados e ignorantes. Esto lo arrastramos hasta el día de hoy. No encuentro NADA útil en la web, en castellano, para ayudar a dejar las benzodiazepinas. Sin embargo en inglés está todo. Me parte el alma pensar en españoles con síndrome de retirada y sin tener ni idea de Io que les ocurre, sólo porque no hablan inglés. La comunicación es lo que lleva a la evolución, como se demostró con los neandertales. Voy a intentar dormir que aquí es la una de la madrugada. [...], ya nos contarás cómo has logrado ese dominio del castellano. A este paso nos tienes que dar clases. Buddies latinos por favor participen, no nos dejen solos que también ayuda a curarse poder tener un grupo de apoyo en nuestro idioma. Gracias [...] por abrirlo.

OK, valnomas. Que duermes bien. Podemos continuar esta discusión mañana. Buenas noches.

Click here for English translation

[[Buddie]]

Hi folks,

Please remember this is an English speaking forum so if you write in Spanish, please provide a translation.


Thanks!

[...]

[[Buddie]]

Hi folks,
Please remember this is an English speaking forum so if you write in Spanish, please provide a translation.
Thanks!
[...]

Perhaps I should have provided a translation of the first post.

I like to learn languages, and these days in the United States, if there is a language that everyone should learn, it is ... English! Of course !!!
Hahaha

But, if there is another language that everyone should learn, it is obviously Spanish. I work with many immigrants who speak Spanish, and I receive a lot of help from them with my efforts to learn their language. I thought it would be fun to make a small place where we buddies who are trying to learn Spanish can practice our skills with each other. We could talk about anything: about benzos, of course, and their withdrawal and recovery; but also about music and movies and trips to various countries, etc. I don't know exactly how it will go, but it seems that nobody has tried something like this yet. Then I thought: why don't I try? If this is a success, BE CAREFUL! I am also learning French and German.
Hahahahaha

Of course, if you are someone whose first language is Spanish, you are welcome here. You help us with Spanish, we help you with English.

One more thing: in this place it is acceptable to correct grammar and spelling, and no one should be offended by such correction. We are simply helping each other learn Spanish. Even so, please do not overdo these corrections.
Let's have fun

So you see, this thread is specifically for people who are trying to learn Spanish.
It is meant as a diversion. It is not on the "business" end of the forum.
Translating every post into English would defeat the whole purpose of this thread.
It would serve only those who do not want to learn Spanish, and who, therefore, don't really belong here.
It would be like forcing a game thread with puzzles to post the answers to the puzzles with the puzzles.

Not only that, but there are plenty of people on this forum whose native language is Spanish,
and this thread gives them a place to meet others who might help them understand some of the English posts.

I think there should be threads like this for several other common languages, like French, Italian, and German.
I myself was planning to start such threads, since I speak those languages as well - or as poorly, as the case may be.

What if we just posted a link to Google translator for those who don't want to learn Spanish but nevertheless feel,
for reasons known only to them, that they have to know everything that everyone else is saying, everywhere?
No problema (This means: "No problem")

Here you go:

Google Translate - Spanish to English

By the way, did someone actually complain about this thread?


Para la traducción al español, por favor haga clic aquí

[[Buddie]]

[...] I hope you allow us to continue in Spanish. I'm on my phone so translating everything would be too much work. I agree with [...] but of course, we'll have to do what you tell us as you're the moderator.

[...] I wish there were more people joining.

Españoles y latinos venid aquí por favor.

Spaniards and Latinamericans please join.

I bet there's not one single Spaniard on BBs. It breaks my heart to think how lost they must feel without knowing what hit them.

[[Buddie]]

Hi folks,
Please remember this is an English speaking forum so if you write in Spanish, please provide a translation.
Thanks!
[...]

Perhaps I should have provided a translation of the first post.

I like to learn languages, and these days in the United States, if there is a language that everyone should learn, it is ... English! Of course !!!
Hahaha

But, if there is another language that everyone should learn, it is obviously Spanish. I work with many immigrants who speak Spanish, and I receive a lot of help from them with my efforts to learn their language. I thought it would be fun to make a small place where we buddies who are trying to learn Spanish can practice our skills with each other. We could talk about anything: about benzos, of course, and their withdrawal and recovery; but also about music and movies and trips to various countries, etc. I don't know exactly how it will go, but it seems that nobody has tried something like this yet. Then I thought: why don't I try? If this is a success, BE CAREFUL! I am also learning French and German.
Hahahahaha

Of course, if you are someone whose first language is Spanish, you are welcome here. You help us with Spanish, we help you with English.

One more thing: in this place it is acceptable to correct grammar and spelling, and no one should be offended by such correction. We are simply helping each other learn Spanish. Even so, please do not overdo these corrections.
Let's have fun

So you see, this thread is specifically for people who are trying to learn Spanish.
It is meant as a diversion. It is not on the "business" end of the forum.
Translating every post into English would defeat the whole purpose of this thread.
It would serve only those who do not want to learn Spanish, and who, therefore, don't really belong here.
It would be like forcing a game thread with puzzles to post the answers to the puzzles with the puzzles.

Not only that, but there are plenty of people on this forum whose native language is Spanish,
and this thread gives them a place to meet others who might help them understand some of the English posts.

I think there should be threads like this for several other common languages, like French, Italian, and German.
I myself was planning to start such threads, since I speak those languages as well - or as poorly, as the case may be.

What if we just posted a link to Google translator for those who don't want to learn Spanish but nevertheless feel,
for reasons known only to them, that they have to know everything that everyone else is saying, everywhere?
No problema (This means: "No problem")

Here you go:

Google Translate - Spanish to English

By the way, did someone actually complain about this thread?

We've always required English to be used on the forum, there had to be one language chosen and English was the language represented by most of our membership.  The requirement is there so that everyone can understand the replies and responses.

Now, if you want this thread to be educational, I don't see a problem with that. Perhaps you should have titled the thread differently so that it doesn't sound like only those who speak Spanish are welcome to join in. 

Something like: "Spanish language class at BB" might work.

[...]

[[Buddie]]

[...] I hope you allow us to continue in Spanish. I'm on my phone so translating everything would be too much work. I agree with [...] but of course, we'll have to do what you tell us as you're the moderator.

[...] I wish there were more people joining.

Españoles y latinos venid aquí por favor.

Spaniards and Latinamericans please join.

I bet there's not one single Spaniard on BBs. It breaks my heart to think how lost they must feel without knowing what hit them.

Hopefully we can find a way to keep this thread available to you, I'm sorry that communication is so difficult for you. It would be the same for me if I had to write in Spanish.  I'm much better at French!

[...]

[[Buddie]]

[...] I hope you allow us to continue in Spanish. I'm on my phone so translating everything would be too much work. I agree with [...] but of course, we'll have to do what you tell us as you're the moderator.

[...] I wish there were more people joining.

Españoles y latinos venid aquí por favor.

Spaniards and Latinamericans please join.

I bet there's not one single Spaniard on BBs. It breaks my heart to think how lost they must feel without knowing what hit them.

Hopefully we can find a way to keep this thread available to you, I'm sorry that communication is so difficult for you. It would be the same for me if I had to write in Spanish.  I'm much better at French!

[...]

Thank you [...]  . I'm fine with English as I'm kind of bilingual. But I'd love to have a Spanish thread too. I think of those people who don't speak English. And the idea [...] had of this being a tool to learn Spanish also sounds great. I don't speak French but I'd voyeur a French thread to learn a little.

[[Buddie]]

Here's our decision about this thread. You'll have to provide reliable translations to each post in order for us to allow the thread to continue.

[...]