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This isn't good, you're at 2.25 and they only want to prescribe 1 mg?  Are the 60 pills .5 mg?  Are the 60 in the pipeline from the doctor who won't take you back so if you can get another doctor to prescribe the 1 mg a day you'd have those plus the 60 to work with? 

 

If you can't get another doctor to write you a script you'll probably need to speed up your taper which is not the best way to go.  Have any of the doctors you've met with seen this document, it is well written and sourced.  Colorado Consortium Benzodiazepine Deprescribing Guidelines

 

I've heard nurse practitioners can be a little more understanding of our situation. 

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Hi Pamster. I think I said it before but we've gotta stop meeting like this  ::)

 

After going through several inexperienced, untrained, apathetic NP's/GP's, I found a doctor who FINALLY understands how serious the issue is and I'm back on track. We both did the math and he prescribed enough for the next two weeks to comfortably taper from 2.25 to 1.75 (stage 7 to stage 5 on schedule 6). He didn't specifically know about the ashton manual but his policy has always been a 10% cut at a time. He's the first breath of fresh air I've had in a long time. Bad news is I have to go back in two weeks but it's the only way he can write them so that I'm getting enough pills to weather the storm.

 

He also prescribed 25mg of trazadone to help me sleep, but I said I would look at the bottle and mull it over but promised nothing. I have no plans to take it right now, I'm just waiting and seeing what happens.

 

I told him about the doctor who was lazy and prescribed 3mg daily to shut me up. Nothing she gave me was working. Along with him and somebody I know, they both recommended filing a complaint with the california medical board. It's a lot of paperwork but I'm going to do it because that was unethical to prescribe that much and then refuse to take me back as a patient after I found something that works. I wanted her to help me taper, but her secretary called back within minutes to tell me that she refused to help. I also filed a complaint with my insurance company (they're the ones paying her). If she had just taken an appointment, it wouldn't have come to that but, now we're going to do it the hard way. I am ever so pissed that she left me high and dry and it's a good thing I found that new doctor because I'd probably be writing this from a hospital if I hadn't. I hope they strip her of her license.

 

Not sure how much I discussed it, but the drug Atenolol (a selective b1 beta blocker) is doing more for me than any of the SSRI/SNRI's ever did. And fortunately, those are very easy to get. I was able to order nearly 300 of them for about $15. This doesnt work for everyone because my condition is limited to heart palpitations that lead to bad things. Keeping my heart down is the key.

 

In the meantime, my sleeping schedule is pretty wacky. I'm getting about 5-6 hours and pretty tired during the day, also having some loud dreams (but not as loud as when I was on cymbalta). This doesn't worry me, I'm more concerned about how it's going to be during the last milligram because I remember the last 0.5 took about 3-4 months alone. The idea of just staying on it at a low dose has crossed my mind, but I fear that the longer I'm on it, the harder it'll be to come off of it later.

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I'm relieved to hear you found a doctor to help you and it sounds like the Atenolol is helpful, I've seen members discuss it as well as Trazodone.  I hope filing the paperwork won't be too stressful, its good you're doing it but I know stress is a huge contributor to increased symptoms severity so keep that in mind if you get too uncomfortable.

 

I'm confused about your taper, I don't understand how you can use the Ashton manual schedule if you haven't crossed over to Valium.  Reducing your dose from 2.25 to 1.75 mg of Klonopin in 2 weeks time is a 22% reduction, I hope this won't be too much for you.

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First I'll answer your question: 2.25 to 1.75 in three stages is the method. Last time, I tapered with 0.5mg klonopin tablets and did fine. I was able to cut with a digital scale, razor blade, and a tremendous amount of patience. Diazepam is not compatible with me because it creates a very quick tolerance that takes a long time to recover from. 5mg (and then 10) worked only once. I had issues with other bzd's. Ativan was very weak, one time I took 1.5mg before seeing my dentist and it wore off within 30 minutes. Temazepam made me feel disgusting, drunk (and not in a good way). Only klonopin works well, and only the ones made by two specific generic manufacturers. Midazolam, on the other hand, was given prior to surgery and it worked extremely well. But it screwed up my tolerance for about a week. My rabbit was recently euthanized (after 12 years). I was upset and cried for several days, but I also felt some degree of comfort that she was given midazolam as a sedative to help her pass on. I feel like we shared the same positive experience.

 

Thanks, Pam. I was only supposed to be here for a few months, ended up staying for years to talk about the roller coaster ride of antidepressants, anti psychotics and of course, bzd's. I try to forget how dreadful the seroquel withdrawals were but, it keeps coming back to me and I talk about it from time to time. That was very scary stuff, 1000x worse than a klonopin taper and I don't want to get into the specifics again. It still gives me chills and makes me feel depressed, betrayed, that I was lied to about how "safe" and "non-addictive" seroquel supposedly is. The worst part is that astra zeneca paid out a billion dollars in fines for illegal marketing, to them it's just a drop in the bucket compared to what they earned. That's nothing to them but it ruined my life for years, followed by two months of the worse withdrawals that I can only describe as the gates of hell opening and being dragged in and forced to serve a sentence for something I didn't do. I really thought I was going to die.

 

When astra's covid-19 vaccine was denied approval, I felt like I had something to do with it because I really believe that what we do comes back around in the end. They lost what would have easily amounted to countless billions of dollars, it made me happy that it failed, but it doesn't change what they did to me. I think every drug company is not to be trusted, given what we know now about the FDA"s role in approving and enabling purdue pharma and how the sackler family caused the ongoing opiod epidemic, that's very upsetting. I've lost several friends due to heroin and fentanyl who started with prescription pain killers. I don't know if you've heard of it, but there's a one-season show called dopesick and documented what the sackler family conspired. Scared the living hell out of me, but I think everybody should see it, in the same way that the movie christiane f is required in several european countries as a means of education to avoid heroin addiction.

 

Back on topic of bzd's, I think they have their place in the world but the doctors are to blame for overprescribing and not listening to the needs of their patients. Klonopin is a terrific drug, no contest there, Leo Sternbach was a pioneer and developed many drugs that we benefit from. But bzd's need to be prescribed responsibly. I can't say "They need to be used responsibly" because people still continue to trust doctors and think "I have a prescription, therefore it's safe". And they become victims through no fault of their own. I feel the same way about the opiate crisis, these people need help because they were lied to for the benefit of a drug company that began this mess in the mid-90's. A silent epidemic that we wouldn't realize the full scope for another 10-15 years. I blame the doctors, the fda, the drug company marketing department. But I don't blame the patients because again, I feel that they're victims who wanted to better themselves but only made things worse. Coincidentally, it was the Sackler family who marketed valium (on behalf of their client, hoffman la roche) and created the term "psychic tension", and the rest is history.

 

Atenolol(and proponolol) have been studied by the japanese for five years to compare efficacy/safety/side effects with bzds and ssri's. They're light years ahead of the rest of the world, always have been. And the results have been overwhelmingly positive, favoring atenolol over proponolol. Again, this leads back to doctors listening to the needs of their patients and responsible prescribing. They need to step outside of their usual prescription of an ssri plus an antipsychotic for sleep/mood disorders and other nonsense. The doctors I met do not prescribe any beta blocker except for proponolol, which may do more harm than good. It's just a first generation non-specific b1/b2. It has to taken 1-4 times daily, easily crosses the blood-brain barrier, and is associated with some potentially dangerous side effects that the patient won't see for a long time. Not good. Right now, Atenolol is working better than any of the ssri's (and almost as well as klonopin) without any side effects. I've only titrated three times, from 25 to 37.5 to 50 (I always go low and slow). My primary care doctor (She's one of only 3 people I trust with my life) was happy to help and send 270 count to a local online pharmacy. Paid $15, pretty good deal, and I was able to keep the same generic brand (teva).

 

My sleeping schedule is not great, I slept 3 hours earlier today and woke up later in the evening. It's 4am and I can't get back to sleep but I feel fine. The intense dreams are calming down.

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Attached is the conversion chart I'm using from valium to klonopin, the same form I used last time (albeit at a lower dose) and the one my doctor (who is knowledgable) was able to do the math and prescribe enough (with some leeway, in case I needed the full two weeks). I dont like two weeks, I'm a very patient person but after 7-10 days I feel it's time to drop again. There was a large gap between two of the drops because I didn't have enough 0.5 tablets to carry it (but a lot of 1mg tablets) I was stuck with the 1mg tablets and couldn't move. The number is cut off at the right side, but it's 4/27.

 

5T6W2Un.jpg

 

 

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Thanks for providing your conversion sheet, is your doctor willing to let you slow down if symptoms become unmanageable?  Your schedule seems aggressive but the real test will be if you're able to continue functioning, a symptom based taper would be ideal.

 

Another member mentioned Dopesick so I watched it and it was so powerful.  I don't know anyone affected by these drugs but I'm personally familiar with addiction so it was hard to watch but it spelled out perfectly the collusion between the government and these companies, it sickened me.

 

We have many members taking and trying to withdraw from Seroquel prescribed by their doctors to aid in benzo withdrawal, from the frying pan into the fire I guess.

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Yes, he gave me up to 2 weeks in between cuts. If I can manage it in 7 days, this'll give me some extra pills to help out in the event that I need more time as the dosage comes down, because the last milligram is going to be pretty bad  ::)

 

Sure, it's always the same thing, even the first time around a few years ago when I was here: No symptoms for 2-3 days, then they start and they're pretty bad but manageable, then it gets better. The last cut was wednesday (the 27th) and the sleep disturbances, zappiness, exhaustion finally broke (the 2nd), so 5 days later. And I usually cut 7 days later, on average. Unless I feel lazy and just want a few more days to myself before going back into it (who doesn't like an extended vacation?).  I don't feel any cravings, that's for sure. I do remember that the last 0.5mg took forever, like 3 months and I had to use a razor blade with a digital scale to weigh them. It was tedious and the withdrawals had their dreadful moments that came on suddenly but were brief. Still, this mess is nowhere near as bad as coming off seroquel.

 

A lot of people are affected by what the sackler family did. Some of my friends either died or had their quality of life severely reduced. They're victims, plain and simple. I don't look at them as lazy irresponsible drug addicts anymore, I see them as people who fell into a trap while the people who did it are living in mansions with maids and do, whatever it is rich people do.

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Here is a good def.

Kindling = Multiple reinstatements of a medication. Kindling due to substance withdrawal refers to the neurological condition which results from repeated withdrawal episodes from sedative–hypnotic drugs such as alcohol and benzodiazepines. Each withdrawal can lead to more severe withdrawal symptoms than the previous withdrawal episode. Individuals who have had more withdrawal episodes are at an increased risk of more severe withdrawal symptoms.

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=188223.0#post_K

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  • 3 weeks later...

Doing fine, my doctor is really good. The only issue is I have to see him every two weeks for monitoring, and he's kinda far away.

 

Down to 1.75mg since April 1st. Today is may 15th (it's actually the 17th but I cut on the 15th, so 10 days). It's the same thing every time: Taper down, feel ok for 2-4 days, then sleep issues with anxiety, then a peak, then it adjusts. I can sleep again, anxiety is gone, wait another day or so to make sure the coast is clear, wash rinse repeat.

 

No idea about kindling, this is the second time I'm riding the roller coaster and hopefully the last. I still haven't filed a complaint with the california medical board, been slacking due to work, but I'll get around to it. I'm not pissed off because she put me on it, it's more that she refused to take me back so I could get off of it. That and she stopped listening to me during the past six months because if she had, I would have been put on the right meds (For those who haven't been following: Atenolol). She hasn't even seen an office since covid started, even thought it's mostly over and the country has moved on. I guess her logic is that she's being paid whether or not she leaves the house every day. It's pretty sad, actually.

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I've heard there's a kind of predictability to tapers and it sounds like you've gotten into a good rhythm.  I think its good you've been slacking on the complaint, keeping your stress levels low can help with symptom severity.
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This stage isn't as bad as the last one, but it's messing up my early morning sleep (like 1-5am). It's the 0.75 to 0.5 morning cut, six days in. The other night, I couldnt get much sleep and tonight I went to bed at 7pm then woke up at 11pm. So I'm just playing video games at 3am. Having some GI issues and my anxiety's been high during some moments, plus I was very temperamental and intolerant a few times recently to the point where I just stopped talking to a few people. I don't mean to sound cold and calculated, but they're just people and most of them have always annoyed me. Could be a lot worse. Next cut should be in a few days, I'll know it's time when I can get a straight 8 hours of sleep. From there, it'll be 0.5 3x a day.

 

And I finally got around to mailing off the complaint to the medical board, regarding the doctor who put me on this dose (then wouldn't help me after I discovered beta blockers). I hope something comes from it because she went from being reliable and trustworthy (I had known her for at least 5 years) to someone who hasn't been to work (in an office) in two years. God knows what's going on in her world, but I think her mental health needs to be evaluated. It's up to them to make any decisions, I just hope they make the right one so there aren't any more victims. Never thought I'd be on here twice for the same problem at a higher dose.

 

I'm just grateful that I found Atenolol, it's been a life-saver. I'm not sure if I mentioned it before, and I'm too lazy to look through the previous replies, but the Japanese have been studying Proponolol and Atenolol for treatment-resistant conditions for about five years. Although they both work, the latter is preferred for a number of reasons. It's worth looking into, the study is right here: https://academic.oup.com/milmed/article/185/11-12/e1954/5874725

 

Traditional medications used to treat these disorders, such as antidepressants and benzodiazepines, are often ineffective, not well-tolerated, and can be habit forming.

 

If you're reading this, chances are you can relate. Problem is most doctors won't write for Atenolol, for some reason they only use Propanolol and to this day, I have not received a valid reason as to why they would choose one and refuse the other. Fortunately, I have a very reliable primary care doctor that I trust with my life (there are only two other people that I can say this about) who was more than happy to write for 3 months at a time, with refills. And the cost is negligible, only $15 for a three month 270 count supply.  So far I've seen only two side effects: It takes forever when I have blood drawn, and the bottom number of my blood pressure is around 60, sometimes it can be as low as 50 but it's rare. Not having any symptoms of low blood pressure though.

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This stage is terrible (0.25 at noon). Normally it takes about 4-5 days for any problems to start but this one was off and running within a day. Anxiety, irritability, some nausea. But the good news is the night dose of 0.75 gives a decent amount of relief and this stage doesn't affect sleep. Next morning though, different story. I can see why Dr Ashton wrote it to go from 0.25 to 0.125 at noon before stopping. Not fun.
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  • 1 month later...

Are you considering slowing down a bit or do you plan to keep pushing through?

 

Hey Pam. Said it before and I'll say it again, we gotta stop meeting like this. Kidding! I'm still alive, kicking ass and taking names. I'm down to 0.5 morning and 0.6 mid-afternoon. Pushed through during an abusive relationship (thank god that's over, never again), went to a grand jury in relation to two ex-cops that are up for 3 charges of felony kidnapping (long story, I filmed it while it was in progress, one of their thugs attacked me and it went viral) and only took something like two emergency doses throughout everything. How long the cuts take depends, could be as few as 7 days or it could be 12 days. Mostly anxiety attacks, headaches, loud dreams, gi issues in the morning, not getting enough sleep (I'm still running on 6 hours every night, not fun), and there are days where I just don't want to eat anything, but only dropped 10lbs and it's been coming back.

 

Some good news: The atenolol still works terrific for my heart skips. I couldn't ask for a better, safer drug. I went to a cardiologist on the theory that I don't have a psychiatric disorder but a heart condition. SSRI's didn't work, nothing worked except for a beta blocker. Klonopin is a terrific drug but I didn't want to take it if I didn't need it or if was going to hurt me. And after several appointments, an ultrasound, wearing a heart monitor, the verdict came back and he confirmed a mild atrial fibrillation in the upper part of my heart. Mild because the atenolol is keeping it down. Not a big deal, but he said to come back after I'm done with the klonopin and he'll probably do another test because I'm still going through withdrawals.

 

Also, I filed a complaint with the board of health and insurance company. Insurance took her side and believed her bs about it being company policy to not re-enroll people who have left. Bs because I've left before, she just didn't want to clean up the mess she made. Board of health hasn't wrote back but from everybody I spoke to, my impression is they're not going to do anything about it either.

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Wow, when you said you're still alive I didn't expect that to mean you're lucky to be alive!  Way too much drama going on in your life, I can't believe you've been able to continue your taper through all of this!

 

I'm so glad you've convinced your doctor to listen to you, you know your body and it sounds like you were right, its good to know the Atenolol is working so well for you, that must give you some peace of mind.  I wonder what the test will show when you go back, do you plan to wait until you're off the drug or fully recovered?

 

You're making great progress and managing to live your life while getting off of this drug, you've found what works and that's the best we can ask for.  :thumbsup:

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I'm leaving his practice for somebody else, he's being irrational and asking too many questions. Saying things like "I trust you, I trust you. Most doctors wouldn't go along with this" and he does not agree that switching from 0.5 klonopin to 10mg valium is a valid comparison. He also wouldn't send the next refill because I saw him two weeks later, this would have set me up for the next six weeks but because I'm ahead of the 14 days schedule between cuts (Even though I told him 7-14 days, I can not dictate how fast or slow it is), that I'll have "extra" pills. Excuse me, I went from 3mg to 1mg in a few months, what's the problem? I have extra pills, a lot of 1mg's, but I don't take them because I don't need them.

 

This is why I didn't tell my doctor the first time I tapered, it makes things too complicated because they ask unnecessary questions and nobody knows about the ashton manual. They all live in their own bubble where they're right and everybody else is wrong. He's really far away too, I don't drive, and he wants me to come back in two weeks for the next refill. Forget it, there's no reason he shouldn't have sent the next refill (for comparison, the previous one was 70 pills, next one requires only 53). He also asked how I measure my pills, I mentioned using a razor blade (how else are you supposed to?) and he talked about cutting coke. Idiot. He's getting spooky, so I'm leaving. I'm grateful that he helped me from the 3mg but this is as far as I go with him. I have two appointments lined up, one today and then another next week.

 

The next person I see, I'm just going to keep it simple: "My previous doctor tapered me from 3mg to 1, I'd like to keep it there at 0.5 twice daily" and not tell him or her anything else, ever. This is what honesty vs lying gets you, nothing but aggravation.

 

Edit: Just got off the phone with my new doctor, I told her about the taper from 3 to 1 and she's fine with keeping it at 0.5 twice daily. No more going to costa mesa every two weeks to be interrogated. What a relief. And I did tell her I'm cutting down but she said it's not a high dose, keep it or cut it.

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I'm glad you found someone new, those comments would have made me uncomfortable too and its great you can be honest with her.  Is she close by?
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Even better: Just a phone call away. Beats hopping on two buses and being interrogated. She was nice, worked in an ER during covid. Their new office is still in the works, something about osha regulations. I didn't ask.

 

Terrible morning, I knew it was coming either today or tomorrow. I cut the pm dose 3 days ago from .7 to .6. The nightmares and loud dreams are back, severe cramps, zero appetite. Only a matter of time until the rest of it returns. This is such a small cut, I can't imagine how people can do it faster or worse, going cold. That last doctor said this is a "conservative taper" and didn't necessarily agree with Dr Ashton. What a worm, everybody pretends to be a tough guy but I'd like to see him go through it and make it to work without doubling over in pain. I wanted to go to the flea market today, too. Not gonna happen, just going to lay here, play video games in the dark and try not to die :laugh:

 

 

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Its good you can somewhat predict your taper reactions and why they'll drop in.  You say you can't imagine going cold turkey but I can't imagine having the willpower to deliberately bring on the pain and not reach for the drug to take the pain away.  I don't have that in me but I have addiction issues, so my hats off to you and everyone else on this forum.  :thumbsup:
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The withdrawals have officially gotten serious, 6 days into 0.5am/0.6pm (I checked my notes, sorry for the inaccuracy before). Up until the other night, from the 3mg, they were on the weak side. But it's like a new world. Not last night but the night before, I had the most terrifying dream that I was dizzy on a plane that was crashing down, woke up and my head was physically spinning like a seizure. Yesterday was two intense, brief episodes of vertigo, anxiety from hell, feeling ominously distorted, and just woke up from the most vivid dreams that pale the rest of them in comparison. Strangely, also a sense of hyper libido that I woke up to. I now remember the vertigo last time I tapered but not the others, guess they're just something you just want to forget about. I could have never done this with that crazy ex and the court thing on my back, thank god the dose was higher then. Again keeping in mind this is just a 0.1 drop, I pray for anyone out there who went through worse or who is going through worse. Wish me luck, I'll come back after weathering the storm for this dose. I feel completely hopeless but thankful that we had Dr Ashton to help us through it.

 

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I'm sorry to hear this is a rough one, I hope things settle down quickly, remember you're in charge, you control your taper rate if you need to slow down to function.
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It's funny, the next day I started feeling better. Dreams fell back to nothing. Now's the second decent day and I'm ready to taper again, but that was an intense 2 or 3 days. Those vertigo episodes were something else, not looking forward to them in the future.
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Day after taping, my abdomen felt like an alien was going to burst out. I was on the couch (and in the bathroom) for a day and a half. What worries me even more is that I can feel the 0.5mg I took an hour ago. That's a bad thing, it means more withdrawals are around the corner. Only 3 days into it, the next 5 should be fun..

 

(Just trying to illustrate that I can predict, within reason, what's going to happen next)

 

I hope working on the morning dose (from .5 to .4) will yield different side effects. Not that they'll be any better.

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It sounds like benzo belly has made an appearance, this term covers a wide array of symptoms and they're all miserable.  It's amazing you can predict your distress but it must be awful to know it's coming.
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