Klonopin to Valium Crossover

Hello all,

 

I’m fortunate to have found an Ashton-savvy Physician who is supervising my taper off of 4 mg Klonopin using the Ashton Method.  I’m a long term user - between 32 and 33 years!

 

Anyway, I am still in the crossover process and am half way there.  We are using the 4 mg Xanax Schedule since both Xanax and Klonopin are roughly 1:20 equivalents.

 

I am having such a rough time.  Each Stage has been 2 weeks, which is generous of him, but the Klonopin seems to have its “claws” in me so tightly I feel awful most of the time.  Valium just feels so weak and doesn’t help at all with panic attacks, elevated heart rate, general fear, agoraphobia.  Well...you get the picture.  Strangely enough, Valium does not make me sleepy or fatigued.

 

Even with dosing every 6 hours I’m even suffering from inter-dose withdrawal symptoms which are awful.

 

Would someone who has successfully made the crossover from Klonopin to Valium share any tips, insight or general information with me?

 

It would be much appreciated.

Ted

 

P.S.  I have read anecdotally that 10% of people have trouble crossing over to Valium with the roughly remaining 90% having little to no difficulty at all.  I hope I’m not in that 10% minority although I feel I very well may be.

Anyone?

 

Major issues with insomnia now that I have gotten to the stage where all Diazepam is taken at bedtime rather than a a combination of Clonazepam/Diazepam.

 

Would really appreciate some input.

 

Many thanks,

Ted

Hi Ted! 

 

Fortunately, I crossed from Xanax to Klonopin to Valium without any issues, and without mixing two benzos.  Question-how much Valium are you trying to cross over to? 

Hi Ted Yes a little more info would be helpful if you could give a little more info. People do very long term crossovers and will even stay on portions of both drugs almost all the way to the end of the taper.

 

Best wishes

 

Right now I’m prescribed 1.25 mg Klonopin and 50 mg Valium total daily.  Equivalent (roughly) of 75 mg Valium. 

 

My troubles began when my bedtime dose of 0.5 mg Klonopin and 10 mg Valium went to 20 mg Valium.  That seems to be where I hit the proverbial brick wall.

 

Also, one of the daytime doses of 0.5 mg Klonopin and 10 mg Valium was reduced to 0.25 mg Klonopin and 10 mg Valium.

 

So a net reduction, all at once of 0.75 mg Klonopin with a corresponding increase of 10 mg Valium.

 

My body is “revolting” with such a large reduction in Klonopin all at once.

 

I am faithfully following the Ashton schedule for a reduction from 4 mg Xanax.  My Doctor and I chose this schedule since both Xanax and Klonopin have a 1:20 equivalency to Valium.  I dose 4 times daily per the schedule.

 

I hope this helps rather than muddies the water.  I’m happy to provide more information or clarify where necessary.

 

Thanks as always for any input.

Ted

The klonopin reduction was likely too big.  Especially for someone who has used for so long, dr. probably should have done a more gradual taper/crossover. For benzos like x and k, that have shorter half lives, it's probably best for someone who has used for a long time to do some kind of liquid microtaper rather than a dry cut. Is that what you're doing--a dry cut?

So, different story, but I crossed from ativan to valium. By the book, equivalents vary from 1mg ativan to 5-10mg valium, I personally needed 20 to stabilize! Everyone is different. That does sound like too big of a K cut, maybe you also need more valium than the book says. There is no standard crossover dose, it actually is very individual. Turns out, we all metabolize drugs differently. That being said, such a big switch may mean you need more time to stabilize. Hopefully you can talk to your doc about that. Hope you feel better soon! Crossover is worth it, mine was really hard (we didn't know to do it gradually) but now looking back and seeing people dealing with short acting benzo tapers in a deeper level of suffering, so worth it.

diana-very true.  I initially crossed to 20mg valium from 1mg Xanax, and it was too much. I literally had my face in the soup most of the time.  I immediately cut to 15mg which was more manageable, and tapered from there. 

Sorry for my late response to everyone’s feedback - I truly appreciate getting different perspectives.

 

Something seems very wrong.  I’m following Ashton’s instructions to the ‘t’.  Yet I’m suffering from severe anxiety and debilitating Agoraphobia.  It’s almost impossible for me to leave the house.

 

I’ve got some serious painful Dental problems, too, so that isn’t helping things.  And bad arthritis pain (untreated) in my spine which makes sitting up extremely painful.  Too much stacked “against” me all at once.  There are other health issues but that’s enough for now.

 

Somehow, I feel like the cut in Klonopin in Ashton’s Schedule is too “abrupt”.

 

I don’t see my Doctor until next Tuesday.  So another week of “suffering”.

 

Right now I am at the following:  6 am - 0.25 mg Klonopin/10 mg Valium  12 noon - 0.25 mg Klonopin/10 mg Valium  6 pm - 0.5 mg Klonopin/10 mg Valium  10 pm - 20 mg Valium.

 

You’d think I would be okay at these levels???

 

I also take the following at bedtime in order to sleep:  30 mg Remeron, 100 mg Seroquel and 400 mg Gabapentin at 10 pm.

 

All of this borders on ridiculous, in my opinion, but it is all prescribed.

TedEB,

From very recent personal experience in rapid tapers of .5 mg of Clonazepam (equiv of 10 mg Valium)...... that Klonopin monster throws a lot of tricks out there in an attempt to get us back.  Regarding arthritis:  When my Clonazepam doses were higher these arthritic knees were on fire.  After a couple of weeks around 1 mg, surprisingly the pain subsided.  Through each day I hang on knowing a window will come and it will for you as well.

I crossed over from 1 mg Klonopin to 20 mg Valium following the Ashton manual as well. Dropping .25 mg K for 5 mg V every two weeks until I was at the 20 mg V (10 mg AM/10 mg PM). It wasn’t perfectly smooth, I had some intense bouts of anxiety over the course of the 8 week switch. Once I was completely on V I experienced some mild withdrawal symptoms from the Klonopin, but they subsided after a couple months.

following

When I read the Ashton manual I also looked at these high dose withdrawal tapers out of interest, even though I never took that much. What suprised me were these cuts theyd make during the crossover. I thought it my be due to the fact that like in your case  the equivalence of 80mg of valium + the accumulation may be too numbing/sedating. I read that people on very high doses can cut faster in the beginning. I also read from people that tapered their original benzo down abit before crossing over to valium.

You for sure feel withdrawal because you reduced your benzo dose(using valium as general measure)

from 80mg-60 mg already in the taper.

Also consider that diazepam has a very long halflife, which means it will take time until diazepam and its metabolites accumulate to their full potential.

Alot of people experience some interdrawal even when on valium. Thats because Diazepam has an initial effect which will fall off after a few ours after its changed into its metabolites which are responsible for the long term effect. This longterm effect gets stronger as the metabolites accumulate over time (est. 4 weeks for 90% accumulation)

So with time you should feel atleast a bit  better.if you cant stabilize(meaning it stays unbearable) I might try to actually match the equivalance of 4mg k meaning 80mg Valium or up the 0.25mg doses of k you take back to 0.5 mg and either finish the c/o to 80mg from there after you stabilize abit and taper down the remaining 0.5mg k doses slower to 0.25mg and then finish the c/o

Tapering brings almost all of the time withdrawal so if you can manage I would take the 25% reduction you already have and keep going.

I wish you all the best and the strength you need to pull through

lemlon