Titration from 10 to 0 mg of Clonazepam - Needs some guidance along the way.

Hi!

This is a follow up to my other thread, since it feels like my previous thread is going to fall into the wrong category over time. It's also getting quite long. Hopefully this forum category is suitable for the stage I'm at right now.

Short recap from the other thread:

I've been on Alprazolam, then crossed over to Clonazepam for the longer half-life to prepare for tapering, for a total of 5 years so far. I wish to taper down from 10 mg of Clonazepam to 0, using a combination of pills and liquid titration of the "cut part" and 40% (80 proof) vodka as a solvent. I find the procedure to be a bit complicated.

Bonus question: Can BZ weaken your bones? I have noticed that I easily damage my bones and I suspect Clonazepam to be one of the reasons.

Now, I experimented on my own to see if I had got it right. By adjusting to 20 ml total liquid I got the recommended 0.1 concentration. This reduced the number of days to 280 days which feels safe? (Is it?) Other concentrations increased the tapering period to over 1000 days. I can not understand how it can affect the taper period at all?

Parameters used on http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/ . You people please tell me if this would be considered safe and good settings or not based on the duration of usage and my current dose:

Benzodiazepine Liquid Taper Plan

Daily Plan

Summary

Medication: Name: Clonazepam - Tablet size: 2 mg - Planned quit dose: 0.025 mg/day - Suggested quit dose: 0.025 mg/day

Liquid solution: Number of tablets: 1 - Volume of liquid: 20 ml - Concentration: 0.10 mg/ml

Daily doses: Dose 1: 4 mg - Dose 2: 4 mg - Dose 3: 2 mg - Dose 4: 0 mg - Dose 5: 0 mg - Dose 6: 0 mg

Planned reduction: Start date: 20.04.2019 - Reduction percent: (N/A) % - Reduction quantity: 0.50 mg - Period: 14 days - Reduction order: First doses first - Combine with tablets: No - Attenuated ending: No

I started by simply dropping a 2 mg Clonazepam pill into the cylinder, and adding 4 x 1 ml of 40% vodka. I let it dissolve for a couple hours. Gently rocked the cylinder to dissolve it more evenly. After that I added water to the 20 ml mark on the cylinder. Rocked it gently again and let it sit for a couple more hours.

Now I tried with pouring it all into a glass. I then started pulling up liquid with the goal of reaching 19.64 ml which would be the first reducted dose. I only managed to fill the 1 ml syringe 17 times, after that I had ran out of liquid. I'm not too surprised since moving around liquid with some residue (binders) between containers will get a little liquid stuck on the walls etc. So my question is what exactly I'm doing wrong, or what can be improved. This was my first attempt. I really can't understand how I'm supposed to not lose any liquid without having to dilute the liquid with extra water causing the Clonazepam concentration to become lower?

Thanks in advance!

Changing the concentration has nothing to do with how long it takes to taper.  If you make a more dilute solution, it just means you drink more liquid to get the same dose.  If you do a .1mg=1ml solution your 2mg dose is 20ml.  If you do a .01mg=1ml solution, then its 200ml.  But its still 2mg, either way.

1) Prepare your solution

Combine 20mg + 40ml vodka + 160ml water.  Now you have a 10-12 day supply.

2) Create a daily taper schedule

Lets day you want to taper 5% every 10 days...

2mg X 5% = .1mg

.1mg/10 days = .01mg/day

Your schedule would be...

20ml                  (2mg)

19.9ml              (1.99mg)

19.8ml              (1.98mg)

19.7ml              (1.97mg)

etc....

You would just lower your dose by .1ml (.01mg) each day.

Thanks for your response.

The generator often linked to in BB, http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/ seem to be a bit glitchy. It seems to have to do with the "taper by quantity or percent"-feature easily forgetting what you actually chose.

When I select (or it thinks I selected) reduction by quantity, it tells me it will take me 200 days.

When I select reduction by percent, it tells me it will take me 1169 days.

Reduction by percent feels a lot safer and smoother, reduction by a set mg value each day from start to end feels like it would become increasingly more difficult and bad for the brain the closer you get to the jump dose. However, if the generator is right about 1169 days, that feels like a nightmare due to the very long time, but I do seem to be very sensitive to making large dose reductions in the beginning so it might be the way I have to go. But over 3 years of tapering for a 5 year (so far) dependency feels insane.

Preparing a solution for multiple days like you suggested sounds like a good idea. It would eliminate the problem with not being able to draw enough liquid due to liquid being stuck on the walls of the containers and also mixed into the binder residue. Speaking of which, is there any good way to filter out the residue before moving it to the next container without any loss of Clonazepam?

Now, as regarding the daily reduction (by quantity) you provided, it feels like you didn't take into the calculation that I'm not on 2 mg, but 10 mg of Clonazepam per day.

Shouldn't it be like this? If I wanted to go for a quantity reduction rather than a percent reduction.

10 mg * 5 % = 0.5 mg

0.5 / 10 = 0.05 mg

Handlo,

One thing I noticed about the tapering plan is that sometimes it gives different information but if you click it several times, it finally gets it right.  I think there is some sort of glitch in it.  Several times when I did it, it showed over 1,000 days, but I knew that couldn't be right and tried again and it showed 276 days, 5% reduction every 14 days.  So, that made sense and I've been on it for 63 days now.

I put your information into the plan and got 280 days with 5% or with .50.  The first one I ran on the 5% showed over 1,000 days but doing it again changed it to 280 days.  So, it needs to be played with to get it right.  And, it's so nice to know that the plan for us isn't over 1,000 days. 

Also, you can use more than 1 pill when you make your liquid and have enough for as many days as you'd like which, of course, would then increase the total volume of liquid.

As builder states, it's true about the concentration and it doesn't have to match the recommended concentration on the plan.

Also, 5% and .50 show the same reductions since they are the same in this case.  .50 is 5% of the ten you are taking.

Hope this helps.

P.S.  I'm not sure about your drug weakening your bones, but I know one of mine does, a PPI for Barrett's esophagus.

 

  Speaking of which, is there any good way to filter out the residue before moving it to the next container without any loss of Clonazepam?

 

Now, as regarding the daily reduction (by quantity) you provided, it feels like you didn't take into the calculation that I'm not on 2 mg, but 10 mg of Clonazepam per day.

 

Shouldn't it be like this? If I wanted to go for a quantity reduction rather than a percent reduction.

 

10 mg * 5 % = 0.5 mg

0.5 / 10 = 0.05 mg

 

9.95 - 8 = 1.95	4 pills + 1.95 mg	19.5 ml
9.9 - 8 = 1.9	4 pills + 1.9 mg	19 ml
9.85 - 8 = 1.85	4 pills + 1.85 mg	18.5 ml

1) You don't need to "filter out" the residue.  It has zero effect on your solution.

2)  My original reply is a quantity reduction; I just chose the quantity (.01mg/day) by applying an established, conservative taper  rate to what I thought was your starting dose.  You can pick any quantity rate you choose, but I suggest it be somewhere in the %/time rates usually suggested here.  Your calculation is also based on a percentage, but its still a fixed quantity reduction.

General comment:  Do NOT obsess over accuracy and/or precision.  Its realaly not very important.  A consistent procedure, with the same set of equipment is far more important than accuracy/precision. The tablets you've been taking already vary 10% or more dose-to-dose.  And when you switch to a .1mg=1ml solution, you dramatically reduce the error factor, and your dose strength will no vary at all.  And if you make a .01 error measuring you dose, that's only .001mgs.

Looking at your plan (.05mg/day, starting at 10mg), if at the end of 10 days, you're at 9.5mg, that's all that matters.  It won't matter if dose didn't drop exactly .5ml (.05mg) each day.