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Vodka Solvent?


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In the U.S. there is 45 mls (1 1/2 oz) in a shot of vodka.  If it takes 2 ml of vodka to dissolve 1 mg of benzo and you are DLMT 5 mg of Valium, that would equal 10 ml of vodka a day.  It would only take 4 1/2 days to use a full shot of vodka.

 

A shorter acting benzo like .5 mg of ativan would only take 1 ml of vodka, meaning you would only consume 2/3 a shot of vodka a month (BIG DIFFERENCE).

 

I hope my math is wrong on this, but if it is correct, that would be 7 shots of vodka a month to dissolve 5 mg of Valium a day.  I realize as your taper gets lower, your consumption of vodka gets lower.  But, in the beginning, doesn't this seem like a lot of vodka to be consuming in a month while trying to taper benzos.

 

I am not trying to ruffle any feathers here, I am just wondering if my figures are correct?  Is the ratio of 2 ml vodka for every 1 ml of any benzo correct?  I am getting ready to taper and this has me a little worried.

Any thoughts?

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Actually, the 10ml/day is the maximum amount (first day)you would take.  It declines each day.  So you really don't take 1.5 ozs in 4.5 days

 

And 45mls of vodka is actually only 18mls (.6 ozs) of alcohol.

 

Or you can use PG.

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[f1...]

Or, you can just use milk. It's not really that inconvenient.

 

I still do wonder were the 2ML per 1mg of benzo comes from. 1mg of X, K is a lot different than 1mg of Valium.

 

But, what do I know? Sigh...

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Or, you can just use milk. It's not really that inconvenient.

 

I still do wonder were the 2ML per 1mg of benzo comes from. 1mg of X, K is a lot different than 1mg of Valium.

 

But, what do I know? Sigh...

 

A drug's solubility in a solvent is unrelated to its potency.

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IU would NOT use vodka as a solvent. Good grief. Alcohol works on your brain much as benzos do. Milk or water is a much better solution.
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[f1...]

Or, you can just use milk. It's not really that inconvenient.

 

I still do wonder were the 2ML per 1mg of benzo comes from. 1mg of X, K is a lot different than 1mg of Valium.

 

But, what do I know? Sigh...

 

A drug's solubility in a solvent is unrelated to its potency.

 

Source?

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Or, you can just use milk. It's not really that inconvenient.

 

I still do wonder were the 2ML per 1mg of benzo comes from. 1mg of X, K is a lot different than 1mg of Valium.

 

But, what do I know? Sigh...

 

A drug's solubility in a solvent is unrelated to its potency.

 

Source?

 

Using Ashton's benzo potency equivalents doesn't correlate to this data:

 

Solubility of Chlordiazepoxide, Diazepam, and Lorazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures:

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc402444/

 

Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures:

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc674044/

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Or, you can just use milk. It's not really that inconvenient.

 

I still do wonder were the 2ML per 1mg of benzo comes from. 1mg of X, K is a lot different than 1mg of Valium.

 

But, what do I know? Sigh...

 

A drug's solubility in a solvent is unrelated to its potency.

 

Source?

 

Using Ashton's benzo potency equivalents doesn't correlate to this data:

 

Solubility of Chlordiazepoxide, Diazepam, and Lorazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures:

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc402444/

 

Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures:

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc674044/

 

...or this!

 

Scroll down to reply #37.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

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Just thought I'd chime in here since I measured out what 4ml of vodka would look like with water and I couldn't even see the water level in the glass. I'd say maybe a tablespoon worth and for me, that would be split into 2 doses. Slowly working up the courage to try this solution.

 

I'm no expert but I have heard of people saying the chemicals in milk screw up the benzo. I remember back in the old K Klub, a few members were having the hardest time crossing over from tablets to a milk solution.

 

Everyone is different and everyone has their reasons but probably the same amount of alcohol being absorbed as when you gargle Listerine.

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[f1...]

From Hills patent application:

Ethanol can be used to make a solution of Diazepam or Alprazolam. The amounts to create a useable solution are about 0.19 mL ethanol per 1.0 mg of Diazepam, 1.6 ml ethanol per 1.0 mg Alprazolam.

 

As I regard her vast knowledge of benzodiazepines as second to none through many conversations, I'll reserve my right to err on what was written above as evidence that there is a difference in proper ethanol ml to mg of differing benzodiazepines.

 

And once again say, to each their own.

 

Good luck to all.

 

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You know I have a fond opinion of Jana Hill, but I think I hold the detailed research of PhD chemists as more trustworthy than Jana's unsubstantied opinion. 

 

And actually, I know the source of that number (and I used to quote it also).  But that number is based on pure, undiluted alcohol, not on diluted alcohol.  The whole point of the charts I referenced in SG57's post is to demonstrate how the solubility per ml of alcohol varies with the purity.  1ml of pure alcohol will dissolve far more benzo than the 1ml of alcohol that's contained in 2.5 mls of 80 proof liquor.

 

 

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From Hills patent application:

Ethanol can be used to make a solution of Diazepam or Alprazolam. The amounts to create a useable solution are about 0.19 mL ethanol per 1.0 mg of Diazepam, 1.6 ml ethanol per 1.0 mg Alprazolam.

 

As I regard her vast knowledge of benzodiazepines as second to none through many conversations, I'll reserve my right to err on what was written above as evidence that there is a difference in proper ethanol ml to mg of differing benzodiazepines.

 

And once again say, to each their own.

 

Good luck to all.

 

Hi benzo-off,

 

I would agree there is a difference in ethanol solubility unique to a given benzodiazepine, as the scientific data provided by both builder and I shows. 

 

Comparing that solubility data to Ashton's chart showing potency equivalents, illustrates there isn't a relationship between solubility and potency by benzodiazepine. My understanding was that was the initial inquiry. 

 

I'm not following the comment, to each their own.  Is the data at hand in question?

 

sierra  :smitten:

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WOW, this is the kind of conversation and input I was looking for when I first joined this group.  I am glad my original post on this issue has obtained so much interest.  I think this is a good thing, because it gives us several points of view and personal experiences that can only help us ALL make our own decisions.

 

My first few posts looking for information about tapering as a frightened new member, only drew a very few replies (Crickets).  Those of you who did reach out to me, I am truly grateful for your help, kind words, and especially the PMs.

 

So, back to the subject at hand.  After reading all of the different views on this issue tonight, I am still undecided about using vodka and my stomach does not handle milk very well.  So please, keep up the conversation and hopefully someone will sway me in one direction or another.  I believe this is way we are here, to share our experiences and offer suggestions based on those experiences.  This subject was not meant to cause argument, but to gain information from different perspectives.

 

Thank you all again.

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I'm no expert but I have heard of people saying the chemicals in milk screw up the benzo. 

 

That's bullshit!

 

... but probably the same amount of alcohol being absorbed as when you gargle Listerine.

 

But this is true!

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... I am still undecided about using vodka and my stomach does not handle milk very well.  So please, keep up the conversation and hopefully someone will sway me in one direction or another.  I believe this is way we are here, to share our experiences and offer suggestions based on those experiences. 

 

Thank you all again.

So use PG.

 

I will never cease to be amazed when people are taking a harmful drug, that they don't need, and is probably already causing them problems, but are are reluctant to follow a logical, safe, proven procedure to get off of that drug with a minimum of discomfort.

 

And what's actually the risk.  If you find it doesn't work (but it will!) then just go back to your original dose.  There really is no risk.

 

BTW, Roxane Labs/West Labs, mfgr's of Rx liquid benzos, makes a Rx liquid diazepam with alcohol (19%) as the solvent.

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WOW, this is the kind of conversation and input I was looking for when I first joined this group.  I am glad my original post on this issue has obtained so much interest.  I think this is a good thing, because it gives us several points of view and personal experiences that can only help us ALL make our own decisions.

 

My first few posts looking for information about tapering as a frightened new member, only drew a very few replies (Crickets).  Those of you who did reach out to me, I am truly grateful for your help, kind words, and especially the PMs.

 

So, back to the subject at hand.  After reading all of the different views on this issue tonight, I am still undecided about using vodka and my stomach does not handle milk very well.  So please, keep up the conversation and hopefully someone will sway me in one direction or another.  I believe this is way we are here, to share our experiences and offer suggestions based on those experiences.  This subject was not meant to cause argument, but to gain information from different perspectives.

 

Thank you all again.

 

I used vodka for the first time tonight. Although my benzo is clonazepam, so I don't need to use very much.

 

All I had was water and soda in the house, so I just added more water when I made the solution. Very slight vodka taste but I imagine with juice or gatorade, you wouldn't taste anything.

 

I didn't cut as I want to see how I respond to liquid. This is a huge step for me as I've been terrified of tapering since I joined the site in 2015.

 

Probably psychosomatic but my anxiety is elevated right now because of course I'm aware there could be side effects switching to liquid. Even though the benzo dissolved within minutes and very little residue was left after taking the dose. I was extra careful so I probably rinsed the cup like 3 times.

 

I'm crossing my fingers I can get stable on liquid and start tapering for real.

 

... I am still undecided about using vodka and my stomach does not handle milk very well.  So please, keep up the conversation and hopefully someone will sway me in one direction or another.  I believe this is way we are here, to share our experiences and offer suggestions based on those experiences. 

 

Thank you all again.

So use PG.

 

I will never cease to be amazed when people are taking a harmful drug, that they don't need, and is probably already causing them problems, but are are reluctant to follow a logical, safe, proven procedure to get off of that drug with a minimum of discomfort.

 

And what's actually the risk.  If you find it doesn't work (but it will!) then just go back to your original dose.  There really is no risk.

 

BTW, Roxane Labs/West Labs, mfgr's of Rx liquid benzos, makes a Rx liquid diazepam with alcohol (19%) as the solvent.

 

I keep telling myself it's logical and safe but when you've heard so many horror stories on here, very easy to focus on all the bad.

 

I know logically the dry and liquid version of the pill are exactly the same but for some reason getting outside your comfort zone, especially being there as long as I have makes this whole process feel like I need to be afraid and panic.

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IU would NOT use vodka as a solvent. Good grief. Alcohol works on your brain much as benzos do. Milk or water is a much better solution.

 

Not to be negative BUT I only use about 0.25 ml's of Vodka in a 50 ml beaker with the rest of the liquid being water.  That is such a minute amount of vodka that I highly doubt it would effect anything. If you look at food labels, etc there is alcohol in many things... even otc meds have small amounts. It's not like we're taking shots or anything. I've been using alcohol for over a year.  Hardly no side effects during the first half of my taper and I just had to slow down a little on my second half. Just a tiny (and I mean tiny amount) is needed.  But of course... it's your choice. Personally I want to see what my liquid is looking like and milk wouldnt work for my liking or need. To each his own as long as the taper gets done!  :thumbsup:

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Probably psychosomatic but my anxiety is elevated right now...

 

Yes, it is.  Read your own last sentence: " ...feel like I need to be afraid and panic."

 

I keep telling myself it's logical and safe but when you've heard so many horror stories on here, very easy to focus on all the bad.

 

I'm convinced that BB causes more harm than it helps.  I learned about DLMT on the old Benzo Detox Recovery (BDR) board.  Every one on that forum (hundreds, probably thousands) were doing some version of a DLMT...all different benzo, some wirh alcohol, some with PG, some with milk, some Rx, etc.  No one ever mentioned any difficulty with a liquid.

 

I know logically the dry and liquid version of the pill are exactly the same

 

It is!

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In the U.S. there is 45 mls (1 1/2 oz) in a shot of vodka.  If it takes 2 ml of vodka to dissolve 1 mg of benzo and you are DLMT 5 mg of Valium, that would equal 10 ml of vodka a day.  It would only take 4 1/2 days to use a full shot of vodka.

 

A shorter acting benzo like .5 mg of ativan would only take 1 ml of vodka, meaning you would only consume 2/3 a shot of vodka a month (BIG DIFFERENCE).

 

I hope my math is wrong on this, but if it is correct, that would be 7 shots of vodka a month to dissolve 5 mg of Valium a day.  I realize as your taper gets lower, your consumption of vodka gets lower.  But, in the beginning, doesn't this seem like a lot of vodka to be consuming in a month while trying to taper benzos.

 

I am not trying to ruffle any feathers here, I am just wondering if my figures are correct?  Is the ratio of 2 ml vodka for every 1 ml of any benzo correct?  I am getting ready to taper and this has me a little worried.

Any thoughts?

 

WOW, this is the kind of conversation and input I was looking for when I first joined this group.  I am glad my original post on this issue has obtained so much interest.  I think this is a good thing, because it gives us several points of view and personal experiences that can only help us ALL make our own decisions.

 

My first few posts looking for information about tapering as a frightened new member, only drew a very few replies (Crickets).  Those of you who did reach out to me, I am truly grateful for your help, kind words, and especially the PMs.

 

So, back to the subject at hand.  After reading all of the different views on this issue tonight, I am still undecided about using vodka and my stomach does not handle milk very well.  So please, keep up the conversation and hopefully someone will sway me in one direction or another.  I believe this is way we are here, to share our experiences and offer suggestions based on those experiences.  This subject was not meant to cause argument, but to gain information from different perspectives.

 

Thank you all again.

 

Here is my perspective and a simple solution jojodancer...

 

So you currently

  have stabilized on 5 mg of valium 3x daily

 

So you make a solution using  90% ethanol

 

According to this data 1ml of 90% ethanol will dissolve 38mg of Valium. Of course it would be difficult if not impossible to actually dissolve 38mg Valium in (tablet form) with 1ml of ethanol. What I did to make my poison was use 1 -10mg tablet Valium with 1ml of ethanol. I took a combination of tablets with liquid to minimize the amount of alcohol consumed. So in your case jojodancer, @ 5mg 3x a day a feasible plan consuming approx. .30ml per day (to start) would look like this:

 

Solution(1ml=1mg):

1) Put 1-10mg tablet V in 1ml Ethanol

2) Add 9ml water

(1ml now has .10ml of alcohol)

 

Day1: 2-2mg tablets + 1.0ml liquid(1ml=1mg) 3x a day

Day2: 2-2mg tablets + .99ml liquid(1ml=1mg) 3x a day

Day3: 2-2mg tablets + .98ml liquid(1ml=1mg) 3x a day

etc

 

Of course the amount of alcohol declines as you taper.

Based on a shot of alcohol = 45ml, it would take approx. 50 days to consume a shot instead of 4.5 days :thumbsup:

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Not to be negative BUT I only use about 0.25 ml's of Vodka in a 50 ml beaker with the rest of the liquid being water.  That is such a minute amount of vodka that I highly doubt it would effect anything. If you look at food labels, etc there is alcohol in many things... even otc meds have small amounts. It's not like we're taking shots or anything. I've been using alcohol for over a year.  Hardly no side effects during the first half of my taper and I just had to slow down a little on my second half. Just a tiny (and I mean tiny amount) is needed.  But of course... it's your choice. Personally I want to see what my liquid is looking like and milk wouldnt work for my liking or need. To each his own as long as the taper gets done!  :thumbsup:

 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

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This was a good discussion and I appreciate everyone's input.  It seems there are different methods for us to figure out what works for our own body.  It seems the first few days or weeks will be an experiment to find out what works for each of us.  I feel we all have to keep an open mind that what worked for us, does not necessarily work for others.  We are here to encourage others, and offer suggestions that may help them with their benzo journey.  When our discussions turn into, for a lack of better words, (argument), this only confuses our new members further.

 

You all gave good information and made valid suggestions, and I commend you for that. :thumbsup:  Lets just remember that when a member tries a particular method that does not work for them, we still need to be there for them with further help, even if we do not agree with their method.  Compassion and understanding for one another are sometimes forgotten. :smitten:

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I agree with Builder that BB can cause more harm than help. Great for getting some input and advice on liquid tapers etc and some suggestions. BUT too easy to focus on all the negatives and people suggesting how you should feel etc rather than how you do feel. Am tapering with the advice I had received from Builder [ he is a great resource for people starting out and has to have a great level of patience to keep having the same discussions about solutions over and over] and a few others and check in to see if there is new info/suggestions on the board. I stop reading as soon as I see the horror stories people like to relate.

 

Determine the DLMT amount you want/need from the Hawk formula and listen to the advice about slower tapers better than too rapid and monitor your progress make adjustments to hold etc if need be and don't be swayed by some of the comments that just scare people. IMHO

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[f1...]

You know I have a fond opinion of Jana Hill, but I think I hold the detailed research of PhD chemists as more trustworthy than Jana's unsubstantied opinion. 

 

And actually, I know the source of that number (and I used to quote it also).  But that number is based on pure, undiluted alcohol, not on diluted alcohol.  The whole point of the charts I referenced in SG57's post is to demonstrate how the solubility per ml of alcohol varies with the purity.  1ml of pure alcohol will dissolve far more benzo than the 1ml of alcohol that's contained in 2.5 mls of 80 proof liquor.

 

I have read through the post you mentioned, thank you. I have written quite often, "a proper liquid taper." Proper meaning, the correct ethanol and % of that ethanol, if one chooses to use ethanol. Full fat homogeneous milk is also a viable and not inconvenient method to use to liquid taper Valium or Klonopin.

 

I may not be fully comprehending dissolution. In the Jouyban-Acree model, they also used 99.9% pure ethanol from Merck. Link below:

 

https://scinapse.io/papers/2013857515

 

I am not trying to be combative or create a debate, just looking for clarification in things I do not comprehend fully. As none of us are Phd. chemists in a laboratory under laboratory conditions and with proper temperature, chemicals, agitators, etc... I put the question out there.

 

However, if the "vodka" method that members ask about is working, than that is what matters most. And to clarify, this method that is detailed on BB, has nothing to do with Hill. 

 

Hi benzo-off,

 

I'm not following the comment, to each their own.  Is the data at hand in question?

 

sierra

 

Hi sierra,

 

To each their own means just that, to each their own. Everyone in the end, will do what they feel is best for them. We all have to find our own way.

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I may not be fully comprehending dissolution. In the Jouyban-Acree model, they also used 99.9% pure ethanol from Merck. Link below:

 

https://scinapse.io/papers/2013857515

 

 

 

 

Which was then diluted to varying proportions, to show the change in solubility related to purity.

 

80 proof (40%) vodka is not a perfect analog for the lab-pure 40/60 alcohol-water solution, but its close enough for our purposes.  It's also another reason why we rely on the 1mg:2ml proportions to provide for  safety margin.

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