Just curious, why most ppl here seem to taper from K instead of V.

Of all the posts I have read, it seems that most people are tapering from Klonopin instead of Valium as advised per the Ashton Manual.  Is there a reason not to try and switch to valium that I have not read about?

Anyway, I was just curious if anyone has any insight on this.

Of all the posts I have read, it seems that most people are tapering from Klonopin instead of Valium as advised per the Ashton Manual.  Is there a reason not to try and switch to valium that I have not read about?

Anyway, I was just curious if anyone has any insight on this.

A few things come to mind. For one, crossing over can extend the taper time and if one turns out to be overly sensitive once crossed over, then they have to find another alternative. Valium is also known to cause or worsen depression. It also can be over sedating.

I can relate to the sedation.  Mine is in the morning just after getting out of bed, which sometimes is tough. But it is before my morning dose.  Since I dose equal amounts 3 x daily, the early morning sedation is a bit confusing after a nights sleep.

After the c/o, some days are better than others.  Yesterday I was full of energy and today all I want to do is lay around.

Thanks for the clarification.

I think you may be possibly right Maugham1.

I have read that a lot of American Dr. are not willing to prescribe Valium for some reason.  I guess I'm lucky, because the 1st time I saw a Psych Dr., who had never heard of the Ashton Manual, was willing to listen to my story and cross me over to Valium on my 1st visit to him.

I did drop off a copy of the Ashton Manual at his office about three weeks before my 1st appointment.  To my surprise, before my appointment,  he had read it and was impressed with the information he found in the manual.  He agreed to let me take charge of my taper on my terms and time schedule.  Maybe I am his guinea pig, but I do feel fortunate and grateful to him.

TLDR; I tried crossing from K to V and found it almost unbearable. I felt sick, anxious, intrusive thoughts & more. I was on 1mg K, switched down to 0.5mg K for a while, then tried to c/o to valium (5mg a day). It was torture.

I've now switched back to 0.25mg K and I'm finding it very tolerable, much better than when on V.

I have read about many people not tolerating it well and I guess some of us do, some of us don't. I was never a fan of Valium throughout my benzo 'career', as it felt like it 'lingered' way too long.

The good news is that I'm stable on 0.25mg K down from 1mg K (4 years) since Jan 16th this year. I realise now I did a fairly fast taper, but I'm happy about the fact I'm managing on 0.25mg K now. I plan on waiting a bit, then micro tapering off it hopefully painlessly or with minimal sides.

Ash

I strongly considered switching from K to V for my taper but I did not for two reasons-

1) there were more than a few posts on here about the sedating effect of Valium and how it was not tolerated very well for some

2) I was told by a psychiatrist that he was “hesitant to prescribe Valium as an aid because it hits harder than Klonopin”  At the time I didn’t understand but I do now.

The physical and emotional “ feel good” effects from Valium manifest more quickly than Klonopin.

They also wear off more abruptly.

Valium has a longer half life, but from my personal experience Klonopin has a slower impact, peak and ebb than Valium as to how I “feel”. I think this is why some have a hard time adjusting to Valium when switching from other benzos. It made sense to me to just continue with K and slowly reduce. It is also why I feel that substitution per Ashton method is flawed. ( that’s a whole different subject 🙂).

It should be noted that everyone tapering needs to determine what will work best for them. Unfortunately that is often only done by trial and error.

In the end, as long as you are successful does it matter how you arrived?

I have just finished my second full week on 15 mg of Valium after doing a 6 week c/o from 1.75 mg of Ativan.

In the beginning the sedation was terrible, but now it is mostly gone.  Maybe I was lucky, because sedation was the only s/x I had during the c/o.

I feel 10 x better on Valium in just 8 weeks than I ever did on Ativan over 7 years.  I guess everyone is different.  This week I am going to try and go from dosing 3 x daily to twice daily at the 15 mg for another week , and then begin my taper.  I think if I can switch to 2 x daily dosing, it will make my taper more convenient and easier.  If it doesn't work,  I'll just have to live with 3 x daily dosing.

I have just finished my second full week on 15 mg of Valium after doing a 6 week c/o from 1.75 mg of Ativan.

In the beginning the sedation was terrible, but now it is mostly gone.  Maybe I was lucky, because sedation was the only s/x I had during the c/o.

 

I feel 10 x better on Valium in just 8 weeks than I ever did on Ativan over 7 years.  I guess everyone is different.  This week I am going to try and go from dosing 3 x daily to twice daily at the 15 mg for another week , and then begin my taper.  I think if I can switch to 2 x daily dosing, it will make my taper more convenient and easier.  If it doesn't work,  I'll just have to live with 3 x daily dosing.

I had the same experience. Sedation was strong but it decreased. I feel much better on Valium than Klonopin and have been able to taper about 7-10% per month. I felt totally stuck on Klonopin.

When I wanted to switch from Ativan to valium my NP was reluctant to prescribe it (she never mentioned K as a possibility). She told me her reason: valium is a "dirty" drug. I had no idea what she meant. But I did a little research. Valium is broken down by the body into three active metabolites: nordiazepam, temazepam, and oxazepam, all of which have their own half-lives. So are we withdrawing from 3 drugs with three different half-lives and three different s/x profiles at the same time? Maybe. And maybe that's why the wds are so awful.

K might be preferable.

Anyhow, that's my take on it.

Katz

Good to hear from you Katz.

It seems like w/d from all of these benzos are terrible from what I have read here on this site.  I think it is possible that each individual body has different reaction to each of the drugs, which makes it almost impossible to know from person to person, which drug is best to withdraw from depending on each person's reaction to each drug.  As bad as it sounds, it's a guessing game in deciding which to choose. (Lab Rats)

I tried to switch to Klonopin before going to Valium with horrible effects like:  rage, extreme irritability, panic, anxiety, headache and on and on!!  As I have said, my experience with Valium has only given me sedation and a small amount of irritability at first, but the irritability left in the 2nd week and the sedation is getting better by the day.

Again, these are all vicious drugs that have no sympathy for anyone dependent upon them.  If we are lucky, we find the one with the least amount s/x quickly to taper from.  Good luck and best wishes to all.

I think the mistake folk make is that though valium (which I am on) is that it has such a long half life they dont take it 3-4 times a day.

One of its metabolites acts quickly so twice or once daily dosage leads to troughs. It does not make me depressed but I feel calmer on oxazepam and wonder if anyone has detoxed on oxazepam as a preference.?

Thanks

Dick

When I wanted to switch from Ativan to valium my NP was reluctant to prescribe it (she never mentioned K as a possibility). She told me her reason: valium is a "dirty" drug. I had no idea what she meant. But I did a little research. Valium is broken down by the body into three active metabolites: nordiazepam, temazepam, and oxazepam, all of which have their own half-lives. So are we withdrawing from 3 drugs with three different half-lives and three different s/x profiles at the same time? Maybe. And maybe that's why the wds are so awful.

 

K might be preferable.

 

Anyhow, that's my take on it.

 

Katz

All of the Valium metabolites are benzodiazepins. Nordiazepam, which is one of the metabolites, has the longest half-life of the metabolites. That's why there is no (or less depending on your metabolism) interdose withdrawal with Valium. All the metabolites act on GABA receptors the same way as all the other benzodiazepines, at least according to Ashton. The long half-live of nordiazepam is why Ashton recommends Valium. In my experience, most doctors have no idea about these details. This is what I do for work and I did a relatively thorough albeit non-exhaustive research on this topic in the medical literature.

Of all the posts I have read, it seems that most people are tapering from Klonopin instead of Valium as advised per the Ashton Manual.  Is there a reason not to try and switch to valium that I have not read about?

Anyway, I was just curious if anyone has any insight on this.

 

A few things come to mind. For one, crossing over can extend the taper time and if one turns out to be overly sensitive once crossed over, then they have to find another alternative. Valium is also known to cause or worsen depression. It also can be over sedating.

Yep. My time on Valium was awful. Depression was debilitating. The only doctor who would prescribe the Valium was out of pocket and wanted to see me every three weeks and wanted my taper to go too fast. (She also wanted to count my pills every three weeks too-to cover her a$$ because my last doc lost his license primarily for overprescribing and the overdose deaths of six people) I had Klonopin left over from earlier in that year so I went back on it. I made the decision then to keep on tapering from K. It’s gone better in this whole k taper than the 9 months I was just on Valium. Some folks just don’t do well on Valium-period. My Klonopin dose as of today is .270 mg.

I did not experience it to be true that there is no interdose w/d on valium.

And I think Dickie (fortylong years), in a post above, has a good point:

One of its metabolites acts quickly so twice or once daily dosage leads to troughs.

I believed the long-half life story and faithfully dosed valium once a day. I got into terrible trouble with what I finally realized was interdose w/d. Once I changed to dosing twice a day, that all went away.

Having said, that, however, I realize that everyone is different and many never experience interdose w/d. And some on here do indeed dose 3-4 times a day. People just have to experiment to find out what's best for them.

It (and its metabolites) is a rotten drug and it's a rotten mess we landed ourselves in. Thank God that is all behind me.

If I had to do it again, I might stick with Ativan and its miserable interdose w/d. At least it was predictable.

Good luck to everyone still tapering.

Katz 

Maugham is quite right that it is long acting, hence his detox on twice a day.  However it is rapidly absorbed as well and works quickly.

It is a lifesaver given rectally or I.v to epileptics in a fit or pyrexial children in status.

When my wife was dying from a cerebral tumour and fitted, I could stop it in under a minute.

I also gave it in error rectally instead of an enema at 3 am in a screaming kid. They  look the same and I was out on my feet !  The whole house slept soundly———and I did tell them the truth of my error and they giggled. 

Dick

Maugham is quite right that it is long acting, hence his detox on twice a day.  However it is rapidly absorbed as well and works quickly.

It is a lifesaver given rectally or I.v to epileptics in a fit or pyrexial children in status.

 

When my wife was dying from a cerebral tumour and fitted, I could stop it in under a minute.

 

I also gave it in error rectally instead of an enema at 3 am in a screaming kid. They  look the same and I was out on my feet !  The whole house slept soundly———and I did tell them the truth of my error and they giggled. 

Dick

♥️ I’m so terribly sorry about your wife. 😓

I did not experience it to be true that there is no interdose w/d on valium.

 

And I think Dickie (fortylong years), in a post above, has a good point:

 

One of its metabolites acts quickly so twice or once daily dosage leads to troughs.

 

I believed the long-half life story and faithfully dosed valium once a day. I got into terrible trouble with what I finally realized was interdose w/d. Once I changed to dosing twice a day, that all went away.

 

Having said, that, however, I realize that everyone is different and many never experience interdose w/d. And some on here do indeed dose 3-4 times a day. People just have to experiment to find out what's best for them.

 

It (and its metabolites) is a rotten drug and it's a rotten mess we landed ourselves in. Thank God that is all behind me.

 

If I had to do it again, I might stick with Ativan and its miserable interdose w/d. At least it was predictable.

 

Good luck to everyone still tapering.

 

Katz

I dose Valium twice a day and am OK with it, at least for now. It is absolutely possible that for some people taking it twice is not enough. You're right this is a rotten mess. No matter which benzo.