pls Help. Temazepam taper. Builder, Jim Hawk, SG57 ?

Builder or anyone else experienced,

is this info still true about Temazepam? Mine is 15mg capsule from an USA Mfg.  If so, how do you know for sure?  I'm in planning mode.  I've put my 15mg Temazepam in 300ml of water to shake vigorously and drink, for about a month to get use to it before I start to taper. 

CONCERN: there's a heavy powder and little beads that to quickly settle before I could do an accurate syringe pull. Will the active ingredients go into solution for accurate pull in just water? 

It's water-soluble.  (see my link)  When you dissolve the powder in water, it becomes a solution, NOT a suspension.

 

Only a tiny percentage of the powder is actually temazepam, the rest is binders, fillers, and other inactive ingredients.  Some of those inactives will not dissolve and will settle out, but the temazepam will go into solution.

SG57, Builder, Jim Hawk, anyone else???

Is this still quote still current info or is there a new way to do a taper now a days?  I'm in planning mode looking for ideas from those experienced with this.  Can you look temazepam up?  my understanding is T is slightly soluble in water, and very slightly sol in Alcohol. 

Can you give me a direction for 15mg Temazepam powdered capsule - can make a solution or a suspension?  Or can I use Ora-plus ?  I want to do DLMT or slow cut and hold with liquid I make at  home. Been taking as prescribed for 8+ yrs. In bad tolerance.

I think the reason the PG/water and alcohol/water methods work is the fact that benzos DO dissolve in water...just enough.  The benzo is first dissolved in a small amount of either PG or alcohol, then diluted with water and the resulting mixture is essentially water...usually ~98%...yet the benzo remains in solution.  Fortunately for us, Jouyban measured water solubility for all the common benzos.  Here is the water solubility data we have from Jouyban.

 

Solubility of Benzos in Water (mg/ml)

Valium      .04

Ativan        .05

Librium      .11

Klonopin    .03

Xanax        .04

 

When using the PG/water and alcohol/water methods we need to keep the concentration of benzo BELOW these values.  A solution strength of .01mg/ml (1mg=100ml) or less is probably a good rule to follow.

 

Mods: This thread would seem to belong in the Titration section.  I'm not sure why I put it here.  Could you please move it?

 

 

Sources:

Abolghasem Jouyban *#, Javad Shokri †, Mohammad Barzegar-Jalali †, Davoud Hassanzadeh ‡, William E. Acree , Jr.§, Taravat Ghafourian Δ and Ali Nokhodchi Δ, Solubility of Chlordiazepoxide, Diazepam, and Lorazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 303.2 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (7), pp 2142–2145, April 22, 2009.

 

Ali Shayanfar †, Mohammad A. A. Fakhree §, William E. Acree , Jr.∥ and Abolghasem Jouyban *‡, Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 298.15 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (3), pp 1107–1109, December 22, 2008

SG57, Builder, Jim Hawk, anyone else???

 

Is this still quote still current info or is there a new way to do a taper now a days?  I'm in planning mode looking for ideas from those experienced with this.  Can you look temazepam up?  my understanding is T is slightly soluble in water, and very slightly sol in Alcohol. 

 

Can you give me a direction for 15mg Temazepam powdered capsule - can make a solution or a suspension?  Or can I use Ora-plus ?  I want to do DLMT or slow cut and hold with liquid I make at  home. Been taking as prescribed for 8+ yrs. In bad tolerance.

 

I think the reason the PG/water and alcohol/water methods work is the fact that benzos DO dissolve in water...just enough.  The benzo is first dissolved in a small amount of either PG or alcohol, then diluted with water and the resulting mixture is essentially water...usually ~98%...yet the benzo remains in solution.  Fortunately for us, Jouyban measured water solubility for all the common benzos.  Here is the water solubility data we have from Jouyban.

 

Solubility of Benzos in Water (mg/ml)

Valium      .04

Ativan        .05

Librium      .11

Klonopin    .03

Xanax        .04

 

When using the PG/water and alcohol/water methods we need to keep the concentration of benzo BELOW these values.  A solution strength of .01mg/ml (1mg=100ml) or less is probably a good rule to follow.

 

Mods: This thread would seem to belong in the Titration section.  I'm not sure why I put it here.  Could you please move it?

 

 

Sources:

Abolghasem Jouyban *#, Javad Shokri †, Mohammad Barzegar-Jalali †, Davoud Hassanzadeh ‡, William E. Acree , Jr.§, Taravat Ghafourian Δ and Ali Nokhodchi Δ, Solubility of Chlordiazepoxide, Diazepam, and Lorazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 303.2 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (7), pp 2142–2145, April 22, 2009.

 

Ali Shayanfar †, Mohammad A. A. Fakhree §, William E. Acree , Jr.∥ and Abolghasem Jouyban *‡, Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 298.15 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (3), pp 1107–1109, December 22, 2008

This data is up to date. Yes, temazapam is slightly soluble in water, and very slightly soluble in Alcohol. 

1)Measure out 100ml of Ora-Plus and 50ml of distilled water in a suitable container.

(the Ora-Plus can be diluted up to 50%)

2) Empty 10 - 15mg caps (150mg) into the liquid. (crush beads/powder first)

3) Shake well prior to use.

This formula creates a viable 1ml=1mg suspension.

Thanks Bella. 

Is it better to make a suspension or a solution?

Temazepam is a white, crystalline substance, very slightly soluble in water and sparingly soluble in alcohol USP. Taken from Source: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2016/018163s064lbl.pdf

Bella This helps me learn and wrap my head around how the math and options.

I’m Still in planning mode. 

Am I on the right track to use bellas ratio mixture for a

DLMT 10% per mth of current dose?

My MATH Example. (Correct me if I’m wrong, or is there a better way?)

15mg x 10% = 13.5.

15 - 13.5 = 1.5mg reduction the 1st month

1.5mg divided by 30 day mth = .05mg additional cut per day. 

pull out and drink:

14.95ml day 1

14.90ml day 2

14.85ml day 3

14.80ml day 4

Etc. 

At end of 1st mth I’d recalculate 10% off 13.5mg?

Thanks Bella. 

 

Is it better to make a suspension or a solution?

 

Temazepam is a white, crystalline substance, very slightly soluble in water and sparingly soluble in alcohol USP. Taken from Source: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2016/018163s064lbl.pdf

 

Bella This helps me learn and wrap my head around how the math and options.

I’m Still in planning mode. 

 

Am I on the right track to use bellas ratio mixture for a

DLMT 10% per mth of current dose?

 

My MATH Example. (Correct me if I’m wrong, or is there a better way?)

15mg x 10% = 13.5.

15 - 13.5 = 1.5mg.

1.5mg /by 30 day mth = .05mg additional cut per day. 

 

pull out and drink:

14.95ml day 1

14.90ml day 2

14.85ml day 3

14.80ml day 4

Etc. 

 

At end of 1st mth I’d recalculate 10% off 13.5mg?

Because Temazepam is only sparingly soluble in alcohol I would recommend the suspension.

Your math is perfect 

Yes, at the end of the month you would recalculate the 10% reduction rate from 13.5mg

The 1ml = 1mg concentration is fine for Temazepam. Like Valium, Temazepam (20mgT =10mgV) is not as "concentrated" as say Klonopin (1mgK equivalent to 20mgV) So the  1ml = .10mg dilution is not necessary.

Thank you! This is very helpful to consider.

Bella, Jim hawk, builder, SG57, Others, I appreciate your experience and kind assistance. Still learning / planning mode.

—Builder? referring to your quote above, if it’s possible to be assured that the quick falling sediment in the jar is fillers and not active ingredient (API) for sure, could I do this mixture with 100% water and shake property to get just as accurate dosing?

—Curious, Is there personal experience or other reason it was suggested to use  2/3 part Ora-plus to 1 part water instead of 50% Ora plus to 50% water?  Tips How to avoid clumps caused by ora plus in water?

Thank you! This is very helpful to consider.

 

Bella, Jim hawk, builder, SG57, Others, I appreciate your experience and kind assistance. Still learning / planning mode.

 

—Builder? referring to your quote above, if it’s possible to be assured that the quick falling sediment in the jar is fillers and not active ingredient (API) for sure, could I do this mixture with 100% water and shake property to get just as accurate dosing?

 

—Curious, Is there personal experience or other reason it was suggested to use  2/3 part Ora-plus to 1 part water instead of 50% Ora plus to 50% water?  Tips How to avoid clumps caused by ora plus in water?

Two reasons to use 2:1 OraPlus; the viscosity makes suspension product hard to draw up in syringe, and the manufacture states it can be diluted up to 50% . Why max it out 

If you crush the beads into the powder then put it in the water prior to adding the OraPlus it should not clump. I did not have any problems with clumping. Experiment with it 

I am a fan of solutions over suspensions

But because of the marginal solubility of temazepam, I would actually feel for comfortable with a suspension.  The OraPlus/OraSweet products are reliable products. 

Hey Bella,

With your last Ora plus comment, I’m confused...  one of us having a dyslexic thing?  

Did you mean

2:1 (2 parts Ora plus to 1 part water?) as per your original formula you posted? This uses MORE than 50% of the Ora plus.

~Or~

2:1 (2 parts water to 1 part Ora plus?)  are you suggesting this ratio is better because it will make a thinner good suspension being easier to draw up in syringe, using LESS than 50% of the ora plus. Saves money and my tummy.  ??

—also, ora bottle says something about adding (Ora-sweet) to the mix too, to make propersuspension? I’d rather not add extra sugars/junk to it, and I don’t care what it tastes like, so can I skip the Ora sweet and still make an accurate suspension?

Hey Bella,

With your last Ora plus comment, I’m confused...  one of us having a dyslexic thing?  

Did you mean

2:1 (2 parts Ora plus to 1 part water?) as per your original formula you posted? This uses MORE than 50% of the Ora plus.

~Or~

2:1 (2 parts water to 1 part Ora plus?)  are you suggesting this ratio is better because it will make a thinner good suspension being easier to draw up in syringe, using LESS than 50% of the ora plus. Saves money and my tummy.  ??

 

—also, ora bottle says something about adding (Ora-sweet) to the mix too, to make propersuspension? I’d rather not add extra sugars/junk to it, and I don’t care what it tastes like, so can I skip the Ora sweet and still make an accurate suspension?

2 parts Ora-Plus 1 part water. I did not use the Ora-sweet. My pharmacist told me not necessary. Sorry about the confusion

More questions:

briefly played with Jim hawks spreadsheet (so cool!)  and will read more on it and play more. i'm so ill, trying wrap my head around all this.  can jim hawk help me to set up a couple ways for spreadsheet to see how taper will look? can you set up and send screen shot??

DLMT #1 option

Bella helped me with this as one idea:

1mg-1ml concentration for my Temazepam 150mg capsule in a 150ml volume suspension (for 10 days). I'd like to cut dose 10% of each current months dose by the end of each month by doing micro cuts-daily. And can spreadsheet be setup to help split up doses every 8 hrs to help with interdose? Is this aprop in my case?

I'm really suffering tolerance and interdose, been on for 8 years. i'm sleeping OK but daytime gets worse sxs as day goes on.

DLMT #2 option 

Same idea but with larger volume or concentration if it's a good idea? Daily micro cut to equal 10% of Orginal dose until it gets goes above 10%/mth about 5th month, then "attenuate?" to go slower middle to end of taper? Not sure i understand attenuate but some suggest it helps.

Clarification;

Does one have a better chance for accurate or micro dosing using a LARGER VOLUME  or different ratios of concentration??  i see other posts discussing 1mg = .1ml concentration or even .01ml concentration. Why would this be best?.... and gives less room for error versus using smaller volume, more chance for error?  Is this true or my misunderstanding. Perhaps for only other types of meds, but not applying to Temazepam?

you guys are awesome

Greater volume makes it much easier to measure out/meter your doses.  (It much easier to measure .1ml than .01ml)

Greater volume dramatically reduces the error factor.  If your trying to measure .5ml and make a .1ml error with 1mg=1ml solution, that's a .1mg (20%) error.  If make the same error with .1mg=1ml solution, then its only a .01mg (2%) error.

You guys are so helpful. I’m learning. Thank you.

Since Temazepam USA capsule powder does not make a good “solution” does Builders ( .1mg=1ml concentration ) “solution” principles apply to mixing a “suspension” with 15 mg Temazepam USA capsule?  If so, could you provide an example formula to mix at home, if this is advisable for the smallest margin for error possible that is easy to prep and dose?

Would it be OK to mix a fresh Concentration / suspension (daily) for a while to “Try” it out and get my nerve up before mixing a multiple day batch formula? Is this considered the DLMT Daily Liquid Micro Taper method?

From a proper concentration-suspension, what would be the syringe dose for the 1st and 2nd day to micro cut (daily), for example?

You guys are so helpful. I’m learning. Thank you.

 

Since Temazepam USA capsule powder does not make a good “solution” does Builders ( .1mg=1ml concentration ) “solution” principles apply to mixing a “suspension” with 15 mg Temazepam USA capsule?  If so, could you provide an example formula to mix at home, if this is advisable for the smallest margin for error possible that is easy to prep and dose?

 

Would it be OK to mix a fresh Concentration / suspension (daily) for a while to “Try” it out and get my nerve up before mixing a multiple day batch formula? Is this considered the DLMT Daily Liquid Micro Taper method?

 

From a proper concentration-suspension, what would be the syringe dose for the 1st and 2nd day to micro cut (daily), for example?

Unfortunately, unlike other common benzos, tamazepam is NOT readily soluble in common solvents, and is probably best tapered with a suspension.  You can create stable suspension with a pharma suspension agent like OraPlus/OraSweet.

You can use the same ratio, .1mg=1ml, and follow  the same kind of schedule.

And yes, you can make a "trial batch" if that makes you more comfortable.

Dear Mangogal,

All good wishes to you as you reach out for help in tapering from Temazepam. Although you asked for my help, I see that Bella Amis and Builder gave you good suggestions.

I am tapering from Clonazepam and I am not familiar with Temazepam and its solubility.

When I started tapering from Clonazepam, I found these two links on BB.:

http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/titration/titrationHelp.htm?help=Readme+First

http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/titration/titrationForm.php

I believe that these links refer to Jim Hawk's plan. It was helpful because it gave me a visual aid for tapering from Clonazepam that was I was taking three times a day and with different doses. (ie. 0.5 mg in the middle of the night; 0.5 mg in the mid-day; 1.0 mg bedtime;).

Jim Hawk's taper also provides you with two options: an attenuated taper and a taper that is not attenuated. I selected the non-attenuated taper and chose to reduce the first dose first (ie. the dose in the middle of the day instead of reducing all three doses each day). I did this because Clonazepam is so sedating and I wanted to feel less sleepy in the middle of the day. Clonazepam has a very long half-life so I knew that I would not experience inter-dose withdrawal. I am also taking Baclofen and tizanidine for spasticity and figured that these drugs would soften any withdrawal effects from Clonazepam.

I've been using Jim Hawk's algorithm for the past two months. At first, I chose a 5% reduction rate but found that I could taper much faster. So, I've modified the chart according to any withdrawal symptoms that I've felt. So far, the only two symptoms that I've had are tinnitus and palpitations. Fortunately, they are intermittent and not bothersome. When the palpitations started, I quickly began a coffee taper that helped. The article that I read online was "How to quit caffeine painlessly in one week." Presently, I use only one teaspoon of instant coffee that I stir into hot water. I use decaf instant coffee instead of regular coffee if I want more hot beverages. The other measure I took was to make sure that I walk 4,000 - 6,000 steps a day or do an activity that makes me physically tired at night. This helps with sleep.

Recently, I took a closer look at Builder's tapering plan. I like that it uses less water. Soon, I will be taking Clonazepam at bedtime only and I plan to try Builder's plan.

I wish you all the best in having a successful taper. Bella Amis and Builder are very experienced. Please do not hesitate to ask them follow-up questions. They will help you.

Best wishes,

Starlight

Starlight,

Good job on getting started with your taper. Thank you for support. I agree with moving the body, exercise is helpful!

Builder,

Please double check my MATH on all this and Correct me if I’m wrong or on the wrong path with this.

FORMULA:

150ml  total  (liquid + suspension Agent)

15mg Temazepam

= .1mg=1ml concentration as a “Suspension"

PROBLEM:

50% would be 75mL of Ora-Plus  which is WAY, WAY to much to drink in one day and costly.

MY IDEA FOR SUSPENSION:

Homemade Chia Seed Water (strained). I’ve been experimenting and found a proper ratio of organic black chia seeds to water, and soak time, then strained the Chia’s out.  Happily this suspends all the particles evenly for much longer after shaking. I could make a batch of Chia seed water for 6 days and store in fridge. Each day I could make a new suspension with one 15mg capsule and 150ml pre-made chia seed water. Syringe out what I’d throw away, and drink the rest for my dose.

DOSING - 10% of original dose per month as a daily micro-taper,

and slower if needed.

Using a spreadsheet I can follow how to dose.

Basically syringe out  an extra .5mL / day, throw away, and drink the rest.

14.95mg  day 1  Syringe out .5mL and throw away. Drink the rest.

14.90mg  day 2  Syringe out  1.0 mL and throw away. Drink the rest.

14.85mg  day 3  Syringe out  1.5 mL and throw away. Drink the rest.

SPLITTING DOSE:

Temazepam is a 8-22 hr half-life, so I may try to split the dose every 8 hrs to help with interdose withdrawal. Is this OK with Temazepam?

Is this a good plan? Any unforeseen issues?