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What’s so bad about lifelong Benzo use? What made you want to quit?


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I get this stuff will have you physically dependent in a very short time!

 

If benzos are this difficult to come off of then it must be bad for you, Right? or is your brain now just reprogrammed? What if you keep feeding it benzos for life?

 

Whats considered a high dose of Clonazapam? What if you took 0.5mg daily for the next 40 years?

 

What studies really rocked your world and changed your way of thinking?

 

 

 

 

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No studies. I just knew it was time to stop. I knew it would be difficult to stop when I started xanax, but I figured I would cross that bridge when I got to it. I quit a 10 year methamphetamine habit cold turkey, and that was hell. How hard could xanax be?

 

Well, pretty hard it turns out.

 

But I've noticed great improvements as I've gone down in dose. I still drink alcohol, but not nearly as much as when I was taking my full dose of xanax. And I was kind of coasting through life while on xanax. Maybe I needed the break from life (I had just completed treatment for cancer when I started). But now I realize I need to get a move on and change things. And I'm working on it.

 

So yeah, it's difficult. I do want to stop it. If I didn't have a job I might just cold turkey from the dose I'm at and suffer the hell. But I'm looking for the easy way out, i.e. no symptoms if possible, so I taper taper taper.

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[54...]
I didn't have a choice to carry on taking it, I was given it for 6 weeks for muscle spasm prior to spinal surgery, Dr said wouldn't be addictive at low dose / short duration. Clueless Dr. Surgery successful so stopped taking it after the op  and all hell broke loose, still suffering badly 14 months off this evil stuff.
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I'll only address one part of your questions list, as it applies to me:

 

Q: "What's so bad about life long Benzo use?"

 

A: It's becoming increasingly inconvenient due to regulations i.e. mandatory 3 mo. face to face doctor visits & mandatory 30 day limit on Rx at the same pharmacy (this makes extended travel &/or spur of the moment trips difficult to do). 

 

It could be a lot worse, I'm counting my blessings ...

 

best wishes

 

 

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I get this stuff will have you physically dependent in a very short time!

 

If benzos are this difficult to come off of then it must be bad for you, Right? or is your brain now just reprogrammed? What if you keep feeding it benzos for life?

 

Whats considered a high dose of Clonazapam? What if you took 0.5mg daily for the next 40 years?

 

What studies really rocked your world and changed your way of thinking?

 

Any dose of clonazepam is a high dose.  Clonaz is the second strongest benzo and the second longest lasting.  In other words, it's all around the strongest if you add those two things up.  Taking 0.5 a day, with a half-life of 30-60 hours, plus whatever antidepressant you're on or antipsychotic possibly making that life even longer, it accumulates in your blood.

 

For example if you took 0.25mg every day it would stabilize at roughly 0.5mgs in your blood after a week or so.  That's 10mgs of diazepam.  Diaz is the only benzo that lasts longer than clonaz, and it's 20 times weaker.

 

Some charts say xanax is equal in strength (but obviously shorter acting) and other charts are popping up saying clonaz is even twice as strong as xanax.  Some charts have that one, off-shoot benzo as strongest, but others have clonaz as pretty much the strongest it gets.

 

Either way, there is no low dose. Back when I was put on it, 0.5mg was the lowest dose pill! It could be split, but that's it.  Now they have 0.25s here in Canada and they make them rounded so you can't cut them.  In the states I'm pretty sure they make smaller pills, not sure what the smallest is but I think the 0.25s are flat and can be split and they also make 0.125s, but that's the lowest I've ever heard in pill form.

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I started tapering because a doctor told me I had to get off of them in 30 days. This didn't seem right so I googled and found out how bad it could be. I never wanted to be in a situation where a doctor could do that to me again.
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Benzo destroyed 8 years of my life and counting. Would I have been better off staying on them? Depends on how you define "better", but my guess is that there would have been a price to pay one way or the other so I am glad I decided to dump the drug.
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I started to feel like I was dying on them, and the situation was really grave. My body was getting sicker and my brain felt assaulted. It was horrific. I thought I'd try to at least reduce the dosage because it sure felt like a death of me. Looking back, I now realize that my nervous system got really hurt by them, as they turned on me big time. I've seen people here who'd taken them for longer periods before getting sick, but after 4 years of taking them and not taking them and a month of taking them daily I was in dire straits, and everything was damage control from that point on.

 

Then I developed all sorts of secondary health issues while on benzos and in withdrawal, which complicated my recovery further.

 

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I get this stuff will have you physically dependent in a very short time!

 

If benzos are this difficult to come off of then it must be bad for you, Right? or is your brain now just reprogrammed? What if you keep feeding it benzos for life?

 

Whats considered a high dose of Clonazapam? What if you took 0.5mg daily for the next 40 years?

 

What studies really rocked your world and changed your way of thinking?

 

Having consumed a benzodiazepine for 40 years, my health gradually deteriorated over the years, I have aged prematurely, my cognition is poor and I am at a higher risk of dementia.  I also consumed antidepressants for 35 years further increasing the risk of dementia.  These drugs are not a joke.

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I get this stuff will have you physically dependent in a very short time!

 

If benzos are this difficult to come off of then it must be bad for you, Right? or is your brain now just reprogrammed? What if you keep feeding it benzos for life?

 

Whats considered a high dose of Clonazapam? What if you took 0.5mg daily for the next 40 years?

 

What studies really rocked your world and changed your way of thinking?

 

Having consumed a benzodiazepine for 40 years, my health gradually deteriorated over the years, I have aged prematurely, my cognition is poor and I am at a higher risk of dementia.  I also consumed antidepressants for 35 years further increasing the risk of dementia.  These drugs are not a joke.

 

I do not have access to the edit button.

 

I should have said that tapered off on medical advice and it has had disastrous consequences for me and my health is now considerably worse than it was.  Had I not tapered off I have no idea what would have happened but my health would not have deteriorated as rapidly as it has.  I have no other known medical issues apart from drug damage.

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I get this stuff will have you physically dependent in a very short time!

 

If benzos are this difficult to come off of then it must be bad for you, Right? or is your brain now just reprogrammed? What if you keep feeding it benzos for life?

 

Whats considered a high dose of Clonazapam? What if you took 0.5mg daily for the next 40 years?

 

What studies really rocked your world and changed your way of thinking?

 

Having consumed a benzodiazepine for 40 years, my health gradually deteriorated over the years, I have aged prematurely, my cognition is poor and I am at a higher risk of dementia.  I also consumed antidepressants for 35 years further increasing the risk of dementia.  These drugs are not a joke.

 

I do not have access to the edit button.

 

I should have said that tapered off on medical advice and it has had disastrous consequences for me and my health is now considerably worse than it was.  Had I not tapered off I have no idea what would have happened but my health would not have deteriorated as rapidly as it has.  I have no other known medical issues apart from drug damage.

 

That's a HUGE difference & clarification in the edit you made.

 

I realize that everyone is different but, my personal experience and the experiences of real life friends parallel yours in that coming down/off of long term use has tremendously and adversely affected our lives and the lives of our families.

 

Thank you for bravely making that comment.

 

best wishes for all of those that choose to taper/withdraw and to all of those that don't.

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What’s so bad about lifelong Benzo use?

 

It's been pretty well established that long-term benzo use will cause both cognitive and physical impairment.  And benzos are major depressants, and the long-term effects are similar to clinical depression.

 

What made you want to quit?

 

Well, if the concerns about impairment and depression weren't enough, a potential forced CT was the deal-breaker.

 

Given the ever-changing medical care system landscape, what happens if you are forced to work with a doc that 1) doesn't believe in benzo therapy, and 2) doesn't believe that benzo-withdrawal is real?

 

Or...you are injured or suffer a medical emergency, and are unable to communicate your ongoing benzo dependency to care-givers/medical providers.

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I started taking .5 clonazapam daily at the end of 2014 every year I was on it the dose grew by 2017 it was up to 2mg. The neurologist and my gp both said 2mg daily in their opinion was The threshold.  above 2 mg  in their opinion was irresponsible on a doctors part. I knew I’d never be prescribed higher than that dose so I started tapering. I”ll be honest it’s hell if I knew in the start I had one choice to have tremors and panic attacks the rest of my life or take a benzo I would choose the tremors and the panic attacks. In my Opinion the neurologist took the lazy Approach. Instead of giving me a PIll should’ve figured out why someone with no history Of tremors Or panic attacks starts having them within a month of a fall.
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I get this stuff will have you physically dependent in a very short time!

 

If benzos are this difficult to come off of then it must be bad for you, Right? or is your brain now just reprogrammed? What if you keep feeding it benzos for life?

 

Whats considered a high dose of Clonazapam? What if you took 0.5mg daily for the next 40 years?

 

What studies really rocked your world and changed your way of thinking?

 

Having consumed a benzodiazepine for 40 years, my health gradually deteriorated over the years, I have aged prematurely, my cognition is poor and I am at a higher risk of dementia.  I also consumed antidepressants for 35 years further increasing the risk of dementia.  These drugs are not a joke.

 

I do not have access to the edit button.

 

I should have said that tapered off on medical advice and it has had disastrous consequences for me and my health is now considerably worse than it was.  Had I not tapered off I have no idea what would have happened but my health would not have deteriorated as rapidly as it has.  I have no other known medical issues apart from drug damage.

 

That's a HUGE difference & clarification in the edit you made.

 

I realize that everyone is different but, my personal experience and the experiences of real life friends parallel yours in that coming down/off of long term use has tremendously and adversely affected our lives and the lives of our families.

 

Thank you for bravely making that comment.

 

best wishes for all of those that choose to taper/withdraw and to all of those that don't.

 

Thank you, I think when you have consumed the drugs for as long as I have, there are going to be major risks, I knew there was a risk when I started but was completely fooled by the ease with which I was able to taper.  I hope that by making my story public, doctors might think more carefully about what they suggest to their patients.

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I had to get off them because I became dizzy, and after numerous (A LOT) of medical testing and investigation, it turned out that the medications were the cause of my balance problem. Benzos are known as "vestibular suppressants" in the medical literature, and they can cause balance problems if taken long term. I wish I'd known that. I also wish that any of those doctors I saw when I became dizzy figured it out faster than the two years it actually took to come to that conclusion. I finally got the diagnosis a few days after I found hundreds of BenzoBuddies posts on the topic of "floaty boaty dizziness".

 

I'd been taking them for a few years before the dizziness started. Too much medication for too long. My brain said "No more!"

 

I'm sure the SSRI I was prescribed played a huge role as well. The combination of various meds made for chemical soup.

 

Huge regret.

 

 

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I was on Ativan for 10 months when I experienced terrible vertigo for the first time in my life. Before that, I would get dizzy spells but thought it was because of my bp pills. The vertigo got my attention really fast because I was out walking and had to suddenly sit down. Luckily there was a man with a chair, and I asked him if I could sit there for awhile. He got up and let me sit down. When it happened a second time, I started researching the drug. End of story.
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About 19 to 20 months.

 

I think the bp pills have A LOT to do with my slow healing as well as all the mistakes I've made...

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Yes, interaction between medications and polypharmacy can have all kinds of repercussions. I'm sure that affected me too.
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On Ambien a Z-drug about 3 years.

 

Then in August 2012 my throat began burning bad. Checked myself Inpatient as this symptom was too much to live with. First night Inpatient I was given Ativan. Ativan did help. I left Inpatient facility with an Ativan prescription that VA refilled without issue until it/Ativan became in part a paradoxical issue (9 months of refilling it NO problem).

 

At this point….point of issue….VA decides to abruptly c/t me from both these drugs in an Inpatient setting.

 

Sadly my brain was so out of it that I was not able to recognize the drugs were the issue. WHY NO doctor explained to me what was going on….is still an unsolved mystery. ???

 

Odd thing about this whole ordeal is I have always considered myself as someone who is cautious when psychiatric meds are being considered (avoid!/avoid!/avoid!). But my chronic insomnia won out, thus, Ambien entered the picture. (Elavil did precede Ambien).

 

Would I repeat the above IF I knew what I know now about these drugs?…..absolutely no way. I would have learned to just live with insomnia.

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Insomnia, agoraphobia and anxiety. And I was a very bad driver, annoyed and angry. If it had happened an accident, with Benzo in my body, had been a distaster.
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I went off benzos about 10 years ago, and felt that maybe I did have to be on benzos for life.  I went back on benzos and my life never fell back into place.  Everything was worse.  It took years to feel half as normal as I did before that rapid taper.  I had no idea that the withdrawal could still have effects after three -six months, and I thought what I was feeling was my unmedicated anxiety.

 

After I went back on benzos, and still had anxiety, I tried some antidepressants which offered me relief from my anxiety, but then, they too also wore off.  I hopped around from AD to AD for a bit, while realizing that my benzos did NOT CALM ME DOWN ANYMORE.  That was a big factor in deciding to go off of them.  At first I just resolved to cut down.  Then my father sent me a few articles about benzos causing dementia, and that did make me decide finally, to go off of benzos, once and for good. 

 

Since that decision, it seems like I was finally able to see what damage the benzos had done, as I actually had so many more reasons to quit that I was unable to see while still on them.

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Hi, I really don't think that people looked at studies about lifelong benzo use. I think that most people just don't want to control their emotions by chemicals to the brain. I have no idea if there are any full proof studies about any lifelong benzo use.

 

If you read Parker's post " What is Happening to Your Brain " much of it I already knew just shorter and in a more laymen synopsis. I think it will help a lot of people, but for me it is overload and I can't take it as the bible, nor will I be in bed for year, but that is not to say I will be in a bed at all.

 

If you want to stay on a benzo the rest of your life that is your choice and I certainly won't critcize you for doing so, but we are all individuals and what works for someone may not work for someone else and we can research longtime benzo use and you will usually find it's has both opponents and it's constituents who will say I have not seen enough research to say that it is, bad and then of course the drug companies will tell you is't short term side effects, common and rare. Because by law they have to . It's a personal choice and I have not read every post on this site, but I do believe people come here who want off of i for the reasons I explained.

 

I have not seen enough research either way. What works for one may not work from another, but me I wouldn't take advice from someone who believes lifelong use is okay or anyone on this site who says what you should do. Again, criticize  no one and not take one post as a therapeutic method. I am curious why you came here ? Are you thinking of coming off or were you looking on the internet to find out if there lifelong problems with benzo use. I would not tell you either way and hopefully no one else will. I am a Human, Relations, English, Communications, Animal Sciences. Major being Human Relations and Minors being the rest.

 

The one thing I found is there is not one answer other then the problems of coming off and masking the nervous system which starts at the brain.I believe and this is just my opinion is people when they are experiencing horrific withdrawal symptoms that eventually your nervous symptom will go back to normal. How long that takes. I don't know, but in the meantime I have to pay for the doctor prescribed masking of my nervous system and this a great place many different individuals and different and same symptoms.

One thing I know for sure is by taking these drugs we did not treat the anxiety disorder we covered it up. So guess what ? When you began to taper and I do believe you have hit the tolerance level at that point and hopefully your doctor will not raise your dosage. You have to make a decision. I say this only because you will hit your tolerance level and the pills will not work anymore and that anxiety little by little going to creep up on you. Because that's what happened to me and I don't want to go up . but if your thinking of staying on them for lifelong you will have to increase dosage and will a doctor continue to do that and then what happens if you have an accident and you need to take a opiate pain killer, you won't be able to stay on that very long and you will have to be monitored. Because a lot of hospitals, Kaiser etc...etc... are cracking down because of the nervous system depression. It's just something to think about.

 

So it's up to you, are you afraid come off because of what you are reading on here. I can see how that can happen. I can also see why someone just wants to know like me if someone is feeling like I do. Because this process is a scary one. Now I have been benzo's for 4 or 5 years. I wouldn't call wants happening to me damage, but just relearning who the hell I really am and I simply masked all my emotions including the death of my little brother and my mother. I really believe there is a healing period it's that's simple how it happens I don't care as long as it does and I know what is happening to me I just want to know how long and the answer is nobody knows that. You can read every study and paper and the true instigator of what is happening and it will help for a little bit, but when the symptoms return those studies and synopsis' won't mean a damn thing to anyone here. They will be on here as I do needing to hear peoples stories. It's just the way the brain works in fear. That's why people come here from what I read. I don't think anyone should answer your question

 

Good luck to you,

I hope I put some insight in to it for you,

Peace. Love, Happiness

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"If benzos are this difficult to come off of then it must be bad for you, Right? or is your brain now just reprogrammed?"

Regarding this question, I found a lot of useful information in the post "What is happening in your brain?" [http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=66397.0]

 

I'm now going to respond to some of your other questions with my personal opinions. This is my first day as a member of BB. I speak only for myself.

 

"What if you took 0.5mg daily for the next 40 years?"

Speaking only for myself, that's such a low dose (at least, for Klonopin, which is what I'm tapering from), that:

1. I cannot envision a realistic scenario in which a person would take that dose for 4 decades. Even if it were being taken to help with sleep. Have you been on this dose for 40 years? Is that why you're asking? If so, I'd be very curious as to why you're taking it and which benzo you're taking.

2. With respect to the post I mentioned above, that dose would not suffice for 40 years because the brain would acclimate to it long before that and require a higher dose.

 

"What studies really rocked your world and changed your way of thinking?"

None. I didn't need to read a study, be it pro- or anti-benzo, to decide it was time to start withdrawing from benzodiazepines.

 

"What if you keep feeding it benzos for life?"

To be honest, it was this question that made me want to respond because I saw it as a way for me to segue into telling my benzo story, which spans 35 years. So, here's my story, should you choose to read it.

 

I'm 56 years old. Up until the age of 18 I was a fairly happy, well-adjusted person. Then, one night while waiting tables in a filled-to-capacity restaurant, I became increasingly overwhelmed. I'd never had a panic attack, much less acute anxiety, but that night -- without warning -- BAM! I had a HORRIFIC panic attack. I had no idea what was occurring in my mind and body; I only knew that I couldn't make it go away and I had to get out of there ASAP.

From that night forward, debilitating anxiety and panic attacks became part of my daily life. It wasn't long before I was terrified to leave the house (I was still living with my parents). Life, as I'd known it, had vanished. This went on for 2 years, during which time I saw 2 therapists to whom I opened my soul, but it made no difference in my condition. Then, one day I went to a psychiatrist's office. I was only 3 to 5 minutes into telling him my story when he interrupted me, with a rather pleased expression, and exclaimed: "I know exactly what's causing your anxiety. You have a biochemical imbalance. I have a medication that will make you feel normal again." (These were his words, almost verbatim.) He grabbed a sample pack of Xanax, led me to a water fountain in his office, and instructed me to take one. "You'll feel like your old self in just a little while", he said. And, sure enough, it wasn't long before I felt all of my anxiety vanish. It was nothing short of a miracle.

 

For the next 20 years I took Xanax every day. It helped me get a job, go to college and graduate school, meet my wife and start a family, and eventually establish a successful career. I never once thought, "Hmmm... I've been taking this far too long. I should get off of it." To the contrary, I continued to view it the same way I had that day in the psychiatrist's office: a miracle pill. Then came a move to a different state, and my new psychiatrist said, "You don't have a panic disorder. You have chronic depression. I'm going to put you on Paxil." I was very worried about this transition, but surprisingly I had no symptoms of anxiety. I continued taking Paxil for a number of years until one day it just stopped working. My anxiety resurfaced with a vengeance, and my doctor put me on Klonopin, which is what I've been on ever since (with an occasional SSRI, none of which helped the way Paxil had). I never questioned any of this until this past December, when the truth FINALLY caught up with me. These medications had done a very good job of keeping my extreme anxiety at bay, but the trade-off was something I'd known deep down for all these years: I wasn't enjoying life, fully experiencing emotions, having deep and meaningful relationships with others. I attribute this self-admission to age; I don't want to go through the few decades I have left without allowing myself to feel joy, sorrow, happiness, and -- yes -- anxiety. So, I began studying meditation and other practices that are designed to allow one to "sit with" their pain and fears and begin to accept them. After only 2 months of meditating, I was surprised that I could conjure up all those painful memories and emotions and allow myself to experience them without wanting to run away. THAT is when I decided I wanted to start tapering off of Klonopin. I think I cut back too much on my first taper, as I went through 3 weeks of hell and was afraid I'd fall apart at work and lose my job, but somehow I hung on and am now stabilizing. I've since read about water titration and decided to take this slower, safer route that is supposed to greatly minimize withdrawal symptoms.

 

To anyone who has read this far, I sincerely say, "Thank you!" I've been trying for a long time to gather the courage to tell my story, so I appreciate that you've taken the time to read it. I've spent almost the entire day today reading through others' stories; I admire their courage and have learned so much from them.

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"If benzos are this difficult to come off of then it must be bad for you, Right? or is your brain now just reprogrammed?"

Regarding this question, I found a lot of useful information in the post "What is happening in your brain?" [http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=66397.0]

 

I'm now going to respond to some of your other questions with my personal opinions. This is my first day as a member of BB. I speak only for myself.

 

"What if you took 0.5mg daily for the next 40 years?"

Speaking only for myself, that's such a low dose (at least, for Klonopin, which is what I'm tapering from), that:

1. I cannot envision a realistic scenario in which a person would take that dose for 4 decades. Even if it were being taken to help with sleep. Have you been on this dose for 40 years? Is that why you're asking? If so, I'd be very curious as to why you're taking it and which benzo you're taking.

2. With respect to the post I mentioned above, that dose would not suffice for 40 years because the brain would acclimate to it long before that and require a higher dose.

 

"What studies really rocked your world and changed your way of thinking?"

None. I didn't need to read a study, be it pro- or anti-benzo, to decide it was time to start withdrawing from benzodiazepines.

 

"What if you keep feeding it benzos for life?"

To be honest, it was this question that made me want to respond because I saw it as a way for me to segue into telling my benzo story, which spans 35 years. So, here's my story, should you choose to read it.

 

I'm 56 years old. Up until the age of 18 I was a fairly happy, well-adjusted person. Then, one night while waiting tables in a filled-to-capacity restaurant, I became increasingly overwhelmed. I'd never had a panic attack, much less acute anxiety, but that night -- without warning -- BAM! I had a HORRIFIC panic attack. I had no idea what was occurring in my mind and body; I only knew that I couldn't make it go away and I had to get out of there ASAP.

From that night forward, debilitating anxiety and panic attacks became part of my daily life. It wasn't long before I was terrified to leave the house (I was still living with my parents). Life, as I'd known it, had vanished. This went on for 2 years, during which time I saw 2 therapists to whom I opened my soul, but it made no difference in my condition. Then, one day I went to a psychiatrist's office. I was only 3 to 5 minutes into telling him my story when he interrupted me, with a rather pleased expression, and exclaimed: "I know exactly what's causing your anxiety. You have a biochemical imbalance. I have a medication that will make you feel normal again." (These were his words, almost verbatim.) He grabbed a sample pack of Xanax, led me to a water fountain in his office, and instructed me to take one. "You'll feel like your old self in just a little while", he said. And, sure enough, it wasn't long before I felt all of my anxiety vanish. It was nothing short of a miracle.

 

For the next 20 years I took Xanax every day. It helped me get a job, go to college and graduate school, meet my wife and start a family, and eventually establish a successful career. I never once thought, "Hmmm... I've been taking this far too long. I should get off of it." To the contrary, I continued to view it the same way I had that day in the psychiatrist's office: a miracle pill. Then came a move to a different state, and my new psychiatrist said, "You don't have a panic disorder. You have chronic depression. I'm going to put you on Paxil." I was very worried about this transition, but surprisingly I had no symptoms of anxiety. I continued taking Paxil for a number of years until one day it just stopped working. My anxiety resurfaced with a vengeance, and my doctor put me on Klonopin, which is what I've been on ever since (with an occasional SSRI, none of which helped the way Paxil had). I never questioned any of this until this past December, when the truth FINALLY caught up with me. These medications had done a very good job of keeping my extreme anxiety at bay, but the trade-off was something I'd known deep down for all these years: I wasn't enjoying life, fully experiencing emotions, having deep and meaningful relationships with others. I attribute this self-admission to age; I don't want to go through the few decades I have left without allowing myself to feel joy, sorrow, happiness, and -- yes -- anxiety. So, I began studying meditation and other practices that are designed to allow one to "sit with" their pain and fears and begin to accept them. After only 2 months of meditating, I was surprised that I could conjure up all those painful memories and emotions and allow myself to experience them without wanting to run away. THAT is when I decided I wanted to start tapering off of Klonopin. I think I cut back too much on my first taper, as I went through 3 weeks of hell and was afraid I'd fall apart at work and lose my job, but somehow I hung on and am now stabilizing. I've since read about water titration and decided to take this slower, safer route that is supposed to greatly minimize withdrawal symptoms.

 

To anyone who has read this far, I sincerely say, "Thank you!" I've been trying for a long time to gather the courage to tell my story, so I appreciate that you've taken the time to read it. I've spent almost the entire day today reading through others' stories; I admire their courage and have learned so much from them.

 

Thanks for sharing.  For me, I did meditation for a long time but actually becoming Christian and following the scriptures gave me my first experience of real transcendent peace instead.  Thought I'd share that in case you've never tried it, some people haven't even older.  Clonaz is a tough drug to quit I pray it works the best for you and that you become free with no suffering. God Bless you JMK.

 

 

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