Developed paradoxical during taper. Need rapid withdrawal.

Hi buddies,

I've been weaning off a very small dose of Klonopin for about a year. I'm currently at .0145 mg and not stable. I started to get paradoxial reactions right after going on K, but had to go on to help with mirtazapine withdrawal. The paradoxial reactions are getting much worse. Now when I take my .0145 at night, within hours I get chemical fear, a revving of tinnitus, burning, HR going up, electric shocks, racing thoughts, insomnia, fasciations,  hot and cold, head pressure, neck stiffness, and major inner tension. My usual symptoms when tapering and stable were annoying but I was functional--unlike now. I've been working full-time throughout the taper but I had to call out today since I feel like I'm in acute (I've had alcohol withdrawals before and this reminds me of it).

I could hold and try and stabilize, but I fee like this is just making me worse. I wonder if taking such a small dose is rekindling me each time I take it too. I know the advice is to go slow and steady, but I'm stuck. I don't want to do detox, but an option I have is to speed up and do an accelerated withdrawal of .001 a day to be off in about 30 days. I could then go into a detox for two weeks for them to monitor me incase I have cardiac symptoms (which I do), and.or seizures since I'm so sensitive.

Or I could hold and hold and hold and wait but I feel different this time. I've done long holds before and I worry that will make it worse.  My least preferred method is to go into a detox too but I worry about the rapid pace and that phenobarbital will just kindle me more. I spoke to one detox and they told me the pheno was optional. They would keep me in there for 10-14 days, then put me in impatient for 21 days to continue monitoring.

Any advice? Has anyone made things worse by tapering slow and low with paradoxical reactions?

Hi,

Im trying to understand more on what paradoxical is in relation to benzos... I havnt seen it talked about much in detail anywhere..??

Can I ask.. -what are your normal tapering SX??

I relate to what you list as pretty common WD SX, most I have had from WD from multiple meds at times... Why do you define tham as paradoxical..??

Do you think there is much difference between paradoxical Symptoms and paradoxical reactions..??

I think your right, in some contexts paradoxical can change ones taper peramiters quite a bit, but I think the term gets used a bit broadly at times, and that can lead to assumptions and perhaps poor decisions... 

The other side ofcourse, -getting it right could make a huge difference to the bigger picture..!!

Sorry if this seems short, my brain is rather "mono" atm, and im texting on my fone...

I appreciate any thoughts you can share...

Hi,

Im trying to understand more on what paradoxical is in relation to benzos... I havnt seen it talked about much in detail anywhere..??

 

Can I ask.. -what are your normal tapering SX??

I relate to what you list as pretty common WD SX, most I have had from WD from multiple meds at times... Why do you define tham as paradoxical..??

Do you think there is much difference between paradoxical Symptoms and paradoxical reactions..??

 

I think your right, in some contexts paradoxical can change ones taper peramiters quite a bit, but I think the term gets used a bit broadly at times, and that can lead to assumptions and perhaps poor decisions... 

The other side ofcourse, -getting it right could make a huge difference to the bigger picture..!!

 

Sorry if this seems short, my brain is rather "mono" atm, and im texting on my fone...

I appreciate any thoughts you can share...

Fly,

I love your masterful way of making a point in the midst of a gaggle of question marks.

I agree. I think these sound like w/d symptoms. When I was in acute I felt "paradoxical" to my doses, too, but it went away when I stabilized. (In fact it was Fly who made me question my own assumptions about that at the time.) I also remember feeling like I reacted badly to my systemic meds as well, and I see in your recent post that you are feeling that way after taking your beta blocker.

That's not to say that you shouldn't consider the option you mentioned. We all have moments,  I think, where we are nearly torn in two by the twin desires to be done with the drug and to avoid further suffering. And we all have to differentiate between what, in us, is driven by logic, what by fear, what by hope, and what by intuition. And somehow we have to listen to all those voices and determine our path.

It's hard. And I feel for you, because I can tell that you feel you are at a crossroads, and I can see that you have more than yourself to fight for. But what is important to know is that you are going to survive,  no matter what you do tomorrow or the next day or next month. You are going to survive, and someday, not too long from now, either way, you will be off these drugs and you will feel better, you will have peace again. And you will know that you could look back with clarity on times like this and say "coulda shoulda woulda", but you will be past having any regrets, because you will be alive, and healing, not having lost the things that are most important to you.

When I was in acute, and dealing with bad anxiety, I had someone tell me that sometimes it is better to see things through the mouse's eyes instead of through the eagle's. And she was right, a lot of progress is made just looking at your feet and taking the next step. But sometimes the eagle's view can help, too, knowing that goal is there, and that you will reach it at some point, and be looking back at where you are now.

Personally, in your situation, I wouldn't rush OR hold. I would just keep putting one foot in front of the other. You are so close.Taper super slow, slower than you have been, perhaps. That's what I would do. You'll get there.

If you want to troubleshoot, what liquid method are you using? Any changes in brand? How often are you making reductions and how much at one time?

Lol Waves.. -So its my bad "double tap" habit, not my spelling, thats of note..??

Thanks for adding a bit more depth in reply to Trust, than what I could...

-I think this is what I started to feel with the lyrica at low dose.. -maybe..??

I must be extremely careful with comments int his case - but possibly the only solution is to get off the drug, you may never get stable on K ?

It's really a very low dose, and it's a nasty drug.

Fly, waves, and liberty—

Thanks for the replies. It’s nice to hear from some caring and veteran buddies.

When I say paradoxical, in my own subjective way I mean I feel worse directly after dosing and feel symptoms abate slightly as the day goes on until my next dose—usually. I could be in a window all day or a wave and feel crappy all day but I really don’t get receive from my dose. Immediately after taking my dose I feel a revving if my usual symptoms plus an icky sick feeling. It’s like my brain hates the drug. I define the symptoms as paradoxical because of the timing right after taking my daily dose. My normal symptoms are some anxiety or chemical fear, burning, caustic sensations in body, agitation or feeling amped up, muscle fascinations, inner tension, tinnitus. As I’ve been crawling slow and low though I’m feeling more physically sick- weak, tense, hot flashes, surges of cold electricity, inability to catch my breath, exercise intolerance, and more fear.

Ofcourse this is also complicated by my very gradual beta blocker withdrawal since beta blockers now make my heart speed up and pound.

I never really feel good but I do have months of feeling OK enough to not be focused on my symptoms and live my life. This gives me hope that I am healing. Sometimes I am able to cut faster during these weeks and months then I get a few symptoms and hold and feel worse. I never know if it’s from the previous cuts or the hold. After holding and not improving for a while I start to cut again and improve.

Early in my taper the Klonopin would atleast relax me, but at this non- therapeutic  dose I take it and feel worse.

You’re right, waves. I am at a crossroads. As you said, Liberty,  it’s a low dose but a powerful drug.

Waves, thanks for the encouragement too. I am at war with my logic, intuition, fear, and hope. I will heal damnit I have so much to fight for.  You’re a phenominal writer by the way.

Fly, I see your posts all over so it’s good to hear from you. I think you’re skepticism captures the whole theme of my question. Don’t worry your post was coherent and raised some

Important questions.

Liberty, I appreciate the pragmatism you bring. I know you can’t say to just jump or speed up so I appreciate the response. It’s good to get different opinions from different people with different experiences. It’s the only way to make an informed choice.

Waves, thanks for the encouragement too. I am at war with my logic, intuition, fear, and hope. I will heal damnit I have so much to fight for.  You’re a phenominal writer by the way.

Thanks! I'm the child of an English teacher and an English PhD/professor/poet/novelist, so I'd better have picked up something.

And I knew what you meant by paradoxical, it was the same for me. I would wake up in the morning feeling good, not wanting to take my pill. Then I would take it, and, an hour later, feel awful. I don't understand why it was like that, just know that once I stabilized, it stopped being that way. I still never want to take it, it doesn't seem to do anything for me, but I don't dare tempt fate and just stop at this point. Again, don't /can't really have an opinion on what you should do, but I have faith you will do what's right for you, and that you will be okay.

Also:

Fly, did you see it?!!!! He called you "Fly"!!! It's working!

Brilliant topic as I also consider myself getting paradoxical reaction from valium since getting to a very low dose (0.6mg). I felt quite sick with various/changing sxs each day just a few minutes after dosing. The relief I used to get from dosing is diminishing as well around this dose. The dosing reaction lessons some ever time but never go away completely. I do believe this is a sign of paradoxical reaction.

I was hoping I could just stop or fast taper as the drug is not having effects, but I was slapped badly right now after only a cut of 0.02mg and the pain and other head and are so excruicnating and terrifying.

I would do a fast taper if only I could bear the WD with all my willpower. Unfortunately I seem have to continue taking this poison as the WD is too unbearable and dangerous.

Hi Guys..

Hey Trust..  Thanks, -well replied.. Paradoxical something it is..!!

It seems to fit with some others relayed experiences of WD at certain points... Personally, and only for the purpose of discussion, while I think Reaction is probably technically right, I feel Paradoxical Symptoms might be better suited so as to not promote the response of rapid cessation that might be more appropriate for a generally accepted medicinal Paradoxical Reaction..??  Probs a fine line with many considerations and variables though..

-Thanks 4mom, for your experiences too..

I realy dont know how to get my thoughts out tonight, it could be interesting..!! -this is some of what crossed my mind...  More for further discussion if you wanted, than anything else... Between your existing thoughts and others perspectives, I think you will make good choices without too much trouble at all..

Change stood out...

It does sound like low dose antics to me, maybe a sub therapeautic element to it, like a bit of a transition, exposure of the physiological adaptations yet to heal..? I wonder if its something that slower taperers feel a bit more clearly than those that push through faster (relatively ofcourse).. I guess I can only realy say this is where I saw a lot of changes in SX start, and its been similar for others I have followed, that would relate in situation...

I would love to put forward that one is starting to trade post jump SX here, -lightening the load for later, so to speak.. But that would be based on assumptions I guess...

It could be the other med contributing, I believe Its within the realms of B Blockers..??

It could simply be esculating SX...  -Or the start of a reaction that just aint going to ease till off..?? Could be lots of things??  At this point I would hesitate to rush off based on changing SX alone...

It is a cross roads for sure.. -maybe even pull up and take the map out time...

  I guess to some extent it depends if holding and slowing, so as to ease SX is going to provide relief beyond what pushing through would/could..?? And perhaps what has the least risk, or is easiest to rectify if wrong...?

It might help to look at the lead up to this point, and maybe ask how responsive one has recently been to stabalising SX intensity... If there isnt a chance of improvement, pushing on as practical or tolerated, might be the better option..??

Add to the mix goals, aims, beliefs, intuition and gut feelings, and it all becomes a big question..!!

But here its important to consider what Waves wrote, and know that even if you dont get it 100% right, Its not going to stop you reaching your goal and healing... You will fight, adapt, grow, and WIN..!! (Yes, very bad paraphrasing..!!) lol

But what I mean is, Jump, cut, slow, or hold... Dont let the decision overwhelm you...

For me, I got quite a shock at 0.25v when I first started to get anxiety, and while I lost many of my physical SX, the anxiety increased as I jumped, lots of SX gently cycled through, others long passed returned and quietly left, and others have persisted... I had other complicating factors when jumping, a huge life stress event, another taper, and another additional WD on top... Going slow was my only choice due to a SX that dictated my taper speed above all else, and while most things healed as I went, there are some deep SX that didnt respond to going slow as well as others did.. It is my hope they will respond much better when Im totally med free...  There was kinda a middle path that I managed to hang on to...  A pretty slow middle path..

I pushed the end of my lyrica taper too fast because the second last cut didnt feel right, I made a rash decision, and while I will never know for sure, I think it was a ummm -rather bad idea..!!

-All the best as you find your path, Trust...

The same happened me. I was on 2-3mg xanax daily for 7-8 years and it worked well for my anxiety, until one day when I suddenly got paradoxical reactions after taking my dose. I couldn't do an proper taper as I couldn't take the xanax longer, so I did an rapid taper (near CT).

I can relate to your symptoms 100%

anxiety or chemical fear, burning, caustic sensations in body, agitation or feeling amped up, muscle fascinations, inner tension, tinnitus.

Sometimes I wonder if this "paradoxical" could be a sign of tolerance withdrawal?

How are you doing now?

 

 

 

Fly, did you see it?!!!! He called you "Fly"!!! It's working!

laughed so hard at this! I try to call him Fly too, hate when I see people call him Cant

 

 

 

Fly, did you see it?!!!! He called you "Fly"!!! It's working!

 

laughed so hard at this! I try to call him Fly too, hate when I see people call him Cant

Cant works too.. Most people use it in a paragraph fairly often... So it makes me feel popular if I dont read too closely....

So you guys would say that an indicator of paradoxical is feeling things getting worse directly after, or in relation to taking a dose...??

How bout type of SX, -changes..?

Yes Camela, I think tolerance could be in the mix in some instances... A consideration for sure...

Hang in there Buddies...

I'm doing better--much more functional but far from well. I've been cutting .0005 mg a day and I'm feeling a little better than when I hold. I swear my brain and body hates me not going down on this stuff. At .0125 I feel hope. I figure going down .0005 a day is better than a detox, but I also wonder how nasty a detox would be from .0125. Either way, the detox is my last resort. Since I've been cutting, my benzo flu physical sensation caustic poison sick nerve feelings and chemical fear have subsided mostly but now I get a higher HR of 90 at rest (I'm a fit guy with a usual resting HR of 60-70ish--and I'm on beta blockers!) and feel more irritable and amped up- like I drank too much coffee. When I take my evening dose I get the nerve sick benzo flu tightness caustic nerve weakness and tinnitus raging. My scalp becomes raw. My ears and face burn and prickle. My eyes even become hot and tight- like an allergic reaction.

Yep, paradoxial to me is things getting worse right after taking the dose. How much kindling, interdose withdrawal, relative/tolerance wd, and palin old withdrawal accounts into this, it's too complex to really understand. Even if we were neuroscientists alot of this brain science is so new and conjecture. All I know is I feel alot worse after taking my dose. that's not to say that tapering is also keeping me from a full-blown acute withdrawal that may or may not be just as bad or worse.

After my first (successful) Klonopin taper and years of binge drinking, when I gave it up for a few years and decided to try drinking responsibly, I would feel worse after just one glass of wine or beer too. I would sip on my beer but anxiety, burning skin, and agitation would peak through even while I was drinking it. It feels like the same thing now. It's like my GABA receptors are rejecting anything that affects them. I can imagine them screaming: "Brother, leave us be!"

I'm at .0095 mg now. Woke up feeling like in acute phase. Really tough day- I made it to work but not able to be productive- just kind of hiding in my cubicle. So much inner vibrations/inner tension, anxiety, chemical fear, sensations. The worst part is the chemical fear and anxiety- when my mind is wacky I can't function. I can function with fasciations, burning, tension etc. My HR went up to 95 at rest after my beta blocker and Klonopin last night. I can't imagine jumping now with how I feel but I also hate to drag this out. Part of my wants to do a really big drop and then just hold or keep going depending on how I feel. Still can't tell if it's the withdrawal or paradoxical--or both.

I was thinking of going from .0095 to .0075 or even .005 tonight. I could keep just cutting .0005 a day but if this is paradoxical I want to test with a moderate drop and see how I feel. Does this sound stupid when I'm feeling like this? I mean such a drop I may as well just jump all the way.

I tried DLMT for a few days still feel the drug paradoxical too strong so I bite the bullet made a big cut 10% 2 days ago. I slept the best that night even a good nap the next day. Wd sxs are strong but not as bad as last cut. I'm feeling kind of better today too even I was expecting a real hit from previous experience from a bit cut.

Dosing stopped providing any relief of any sxs now I know it's not doing any good.

If I continue feeling wd manageable I will do a few more big cut and be done with the poison.

How do you feel after dosing? Any relief? Any new or worsening sx? What are your paradoxical sx?

4mom,

Thanks for your replies to my posts. It looks like you're in the home stretch too!What are your WD vs paradoxial sx?

I don't feel relief after dosing. I actually feel relief when evening hits, with is when I also take my dose then because it ramps me up too much to take during the day when my symptoms are at their worst. I wonder if this is cortisol or the paradoxical wearing off as the dose does.  When I dose I feel sick, inflamed even, more tinnitus, burning, and sometimes more anxiety withing an hour or so. I take my beta blocker and am able to sleep anywhere from 1-4-7 hours. I'm noticing that as of the last couple of months I have more chemical fear, more benzo-flu, inner-vibrations/tension, whole body tension, weakness, inability to focus my eyes on anything up close, headband, and more burning. My heart is also speeding up so my resting HR is higher. I don't know if any of these new symptoms are from a more rapid taper or developing paradoxial or increased tolerance. What I do know is that after a long hold I usually feel better after a cut. I have periods of weeks where I feel OK to good then I have days where I wonder if I'll be normal again. I want to cut bigger than usual tonight to test but I haven't really been holding that long either to stabilize after my last quick reduction in 12 days from .015 to .010. I honestly haven't been able to stabilize lately though. I never felt great on this poison. I took it to help with mirtazapine withdrawal and it used to take the edge off on occasion. I don't know if it's the K, the mirtazpaine WD, this WD. I just know that it's not helping anymore and I believe it's making everything worse. I still don't want to shock my CNS by coming off too quick either.

You summarized everything so well! Those are what I have been experiencing and feeling but my trashed brain can't put it in words clearly. Except for some differences in sx, that's exactly my experience. I also only take dose round 7pm. Sx usually change from waking up to 5-6pm when starting calming down, but random sx would ramp up 30 minutes after taking the dose.

Maybe just split it to a few more small cuts to test the water?

I will do the same. So you will have a company jumping together. I always feel the cut the next day or the day after so it won't take long for me to know if we is ramping up huge.

You summarized everything so well! Those are what I have been experiencing and feeling but my trashed brain can't put it in words clearly. Except for some differences in sx, that's exactly my experience. I also only take dose round 7pm. Sx usually change from waking up to 5-6pm when starting calming down, but random sx would ramp up 30 minutes after taking the dose.

 

Maybe just split it to a few more small cuts to test the water?

 

I will do the same. So you will have a company jumping together. I always feel the cut the next day or the day after so it won't take long for me to know if we is ramping up huge.

This happens for me too, I dont want to take my evening dose because I feel so much better the closer I get to taking it...I dont have symptoms when I do take it, but it feels like it does nothing (mind you it must be doing something otherwise I would still be freaking out how I did when I failed my first rapid taper) I had akathesia bad today...

Good for you bryjun at least no paradoxical effects from dosing. But seems the drug is not doing you any good though.

Do you still feel WD after cutting?

Good for you bryjun at least no paradoxical effects from dosing. But seems the drug is not doing you any good though.

 

Do you still feel WD after cutting?

its been 6 days after my first cut. Today was pretty bad, but the first 3 days after the cut were wonderful! Best I've felt in awhile, so I'm not sure what to do..

Good for you bryjun at least no paradoxical effects from dosing. But seems the drug is not doing you any good though.

 

Do you still feel WD after cutting?

 

its been 6 days after my first cut. Today was pretty bad, but the first 3 days after the cut were wonderful! Best I've felt in awhile, so I'm not sure what to do..

This happens to me a lot too. It usually takes a few days for us to feel a K cut but it’s like my brain knows and loves me for cutting. I may have several OK days but as hold I feel worse and worse until I cut again. This has led me to speeding up my taper, which could also be causing more WD effects.

It didn’t start out like this about 1/2 if my taper is feel bad after a cut and hold and hold until I felt better. This is another reason why I think I’m paradoxial.

Good for you bryjun at least no paradoxical effects from dosing. But seems the drug is not doing you any good though.

 

Do you still feel WD after cutting?

 

its been 6 days after my first cut. Today was pretty bad, but the first 3 days after the cut were wonderful! Best I've felt in awhile, so I'm not sure what to do..

 

 

 

This happens to me a lot too. It usually takes a few days for us to feel a K cut but it’s like my brain knows and loves me for cutting. I may have several OK days but as hold I feel worse and worse until I cut again. This has led me to speeding up my taper, which could also be causing more WD effects.

 

It didn’t start out like this about 1/2 if my taper is feel bad after a cut and hold and hold until I felt better. This is another reason why I think I’m paradoxial.

It's so weird!

When I got to 1mg Valium everything appeared to be worsening.  Every grain made me feel sick. 

I jumped at 1mg 12 days ago.  I am still symptomatic but have greater clarity of mind. 

Feel too, that the psychological benefit of no longer taking the drug cannot be understated. 

Dee

When I got to 1mg Valium everything appeared to be worsening.  Every grain made me feel sick. 

 

I jumped at 1mg 12 days ago.  I am still symptomatic but have greater clarity of mind. 

 

Feel too, that the psychological benefit of no longer taking the drug cannot be understated. 

 

Dee

I’m so happy for you, Dee! Congrats on being off! When you say still symptomatic is it the same, worse, or better than during the end of your taper before you jumped?

Also, I see you had serotonin syndrome. I believe that was what caused me to have an adverse reaction to mirtazapine then having to ct it which caused all this. How long for you to heal from the SS? You mention in your signature that you weren’t coping so you got more Valium from a friend. Was that to hel you cope with the serotonin/AD incident or from the need for more Valium?

Pete