Needing Advice For Possible Water Titration

So, I'm having all the withdrawal symptoms many of you have and this last taper that I started on Saturday has been the hardest.  I almost cave on Sunday.  I think it's possibly due to the fact that I am only taking two oxazepam with this taper instead of three per day even though the three have been different doses.  Oxazepam is a capsule and not as widely used as many of the others.  Anyway, I'm thinking in advance as to how in the world I'm going to make it when I'm down to my 15 mg. and then my 10 mg.  I know I'm reducing the dose more than 5% to 10%, but I'm okay so far even if I feel terrible, right?    If I survive this 25 mg. (10 mg. a.m. and 15 mg. p.m.), I think I'll be okay at the next taper of 10 mg. 2x a day.

 

I don't want to cut open the capsule (it won't even pull apart, have to cut it) and measure as it's too confusing for me.  But, the water titration seems confusing, too, even though I think I'll have to end my taper that way.  I looked at the calculator somewhere on this forum and it overwhelmed me.

 

So, my questions are ... Would it be okay to break open the 15 mg. when I'm at that taper and split it up and 'drink' it 3x a day for at least two weeks if not more?  Also, the same for the 10 mg.  Do I just mix a 15 mg. (and 10 mg. when I'm at that taper) per day in water and if so, how much water?  I then would divide it in three equal doses for the the taper, right?

 

I know I sound clueless because I really am.  This is just something else, but I'm hell-bent in succeeding.  Twenty years on this stuff is nuts!

 

All the best to all and thanks for any input I may receive.

 

I don't want to cut open the capsule (it won't even pull apart, have to cut it) and measure as it's too confusing for me.  But, the water titration seems confusing, too, even though I think I'll have to end my taper that way.  I looked at the calculator somewhere on this forum and it overwhelmed me.

 

 

 

Water-titration will NOT work, because common benzo are NOT water-soluble.  But, you can easily do liquid titration by first dissolving the benzo in a small amount of solvent (vodka pr propylene glycol) then diluting that with water.

 

Liquid titration is really a piece of cake.  If you can stir sugar and cream into your coffee, you can make a liquid benzo solution.

 

And if you can read a ruler, you can read a syringe.

So, I'm having all the withdrawal symptoms many of you have and this last taper that I started on Saturday has been the hardest.  I almost cave on Sunday.  I think it's possibly due to the fact that I am only taking two oxazepam with this taper instead of three per day even though the three have been different doses.  Oxazepam is a capsule and not as widely used as many of the others.  Anyway, I'm thinking in advance as to how in the world I'm going to make it when I'm down to my 15 mg. and then my 10 mg.  I know I'm reducing the dose more than 5% to 10%, but I'm okay so far even if I feel terrible, right?    If I survive this 25 mg. (10 mg. a.m. and 15 mg. p.m.), I think I'll be okay at the next taper of 10 mg. 2x a day.

 

Are you alright with feeling terrible? It doesn't have to be this way if you taper more gently, so why do this to yourself?

I am not criticizing your choice, just encouraging you to think about it. If someone you love were going through this, would you want them to feel this way? And aren't you deserving of that same consideration?

 

I don't want to cut open the capsule (it won't even pull apart, have to cut it) and measure as it's too confusing for me.  But, the water titration seems confusing, too, even though I think I'll have to end my taper that way.  I looked at the calculator somewhere on this forum and it overwhelmed me.

 

Neither measuring out doses with a scale or making a liquid solution are too confusing. I know it looks that way from the outside, but it's really not so bad. Slightly more complicated than making your morning coffee (love ya, Builder), but no more complicated than following a simple recipe in the kitchen.

 

So, my questions are ... Would it be okay to break open the 15 mg. when I'm at that taper and split it up and 'drink' it 3x a day for at least two weeks if not more?  Also, the same for the 10 mg.  Do I just mix a 15 mg. (and 10 mg. when I'm at that taper) per day in water and if so, how much water?  I then would divide it in three equal doses for the the taper, right?

 

Yes, you could simply make a daily dose and drink from it three times a day, the way you describe, as long as you are using a solvent to dissolve the medication before adding water as Builder said. However, it makes more sense to make up more than one day's worth at a time, and simply draw up less each day, rather than doing 15 mg for a long time and then dropping suddenly to 10, which is a very cruel insult to your central nervous system. I hate to volunteer for other people, but I'll bet someone (nudge nudge) would be happy to help you make a plan and will do everything short of reaching through your computer screen and making it for you.

 

I know I sound clueless because I really am.  This is just something else, but I'm hell-bent in succeeding.  Twenty years on this stuff is nuts!

 

All the best to all and thanks for any input I may receive.

Well, I read the following from Jim Hawk submitted last year, so I assumed my benzo was an exception (Ex.) and could be dissolved in water. ... "Many buddies are disappointed when they learnt that with few exceptions (Ex: Oxazepam) most benzos are not soluble in water."

 

I don't do alcohol, so that's out.  I will look into the propylene glycol.  But, I guess I need to find out for sure if this post is correct for oxazepam.

 

Yes, I can read measurements; I was just confused as to how, exactly, to do it and still am, but I'll get unconfused once I delve further into it.  A little cautious, perhaps, but we're playing with fire.  Oh, and how I wish I could have coffee, but I can't.

 

I should have elaborated more about how I feel.  I did feel horrid and scared Saturday and Sunday, but today is better.  It's usually bad when I start a new taper and then gets better until I need another 'shot.'  Yes, that is why I'm asking about the liquid titration so I can even taper less and definitely, in due course, I want a slower taper.

 

Well, I'll study the weighing more, too, and see what way I should go. Right now, my mind just can't seem to process it.

 

I agree about mixing up more than a day's worth.  I thought about that after I posted.  But, how much liquid am I supposed to use?

 

Someone on you tube said 300 ml of water and she mentioned many benzos that do mix with water, so there's another discrepancy about using water and, therefore, causing some confusion on my end.

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

 

 

 

I don't do alcohol, so that's out.  I will look into the propylene glycol.  But, I guess I need to find out for sure if this post is correct for oxazepam.

 

PG will work just as well.  Alcohol and PG are the 2 most common pharma solvents in the world.  But don't confuse drinking alcohol with using it as a pharma solvent.  The tiny amount of vodka you would use would be less alcohol than you get from your mouthwash.

 

 

I agree about mixing up more than a day's worth.  I thought about that after I posted.  But, how much liquid am I supposed to use?

 

The easiest ratio is make a solution where you have .1mg benzo per ml of liquid.  Use a ratio of  1mg benzo + 2ml solvent + 8ml water.  Its convenient to make enough to last 10-14 days.  And you do NOT have to liquify the entire dose; you can do a combo of tablets + liquid, and make your reductions from the liquid portion.  (Just FYI, if did 5ml of liquid and used vodka, the total amount of alcohol you took in a week would probably not be enough for a standard cocktail/highball)

 

Someone on you tube said 300 ml of water and she mentioned many benzos that do mix with water, so there's another discrepancy about using water and, therefore, causing some confusion on my end.

 

And "mix with water" is the correct term.  I have had some exchanges with the "star" of that video, and she makes clear she is NOT telling people that it will make a solution  (but it really wont make a suspension, either) There are hundreds of verifiable statements from reliable scientific, medical, pharmaceutical, academic sources that attest that common benzos are not water soluble, or at best, poorly water soluble.  There really is no uncertainty about it.

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

Thank you, builder.  Good to know.

Did some research to get numbers for this. Oxazepam is considered "practically insoluble" or "barely soluble" in water, meaning it will dissolve but you would have to dissolve it in a ton of water, not "practical" for making a liquid medication. This quote gives the solubility stats. Ethanol is the way to go. It looks to be 96% soluble in ethanol if you use the right amount (read this in a different paper than the one quoted below), which is better than many benzos.

 

(d) Solubility: Practically insoluble in water (1 g/more than 10 000 mL); soluble in chloroform (1 g/270 mL), diethyl ether (1 g/2200 mL), ethanol (1 g/220 mL)

(Gennaro, 1995) and dioxane (Budavari, 1995)

 

If this solubility number for ethanol is correct, Builder, could one get away with less vodka than usual? 220 ml/g means 0.22 ml/mg. Even if you triple that in vodka to make up for 40 vs 100%, you still get 0.66ml/mg. Am I looking at this correctly?

 

Sadly, I can't speak to propylene glycol. Despite the fact that it is used as a solvent in some liquid medications, I have struggled to find literature to make me feel as confident about its use and safety, compared to ethanol.

 

Sorry this is all sort of overwhelming at this stage, CAgirl. We understand and are here for you. You're going to get through it one way or another. 

 

"If this solubility number for ethanol is correct, Builder, could one get away with less vodka than usual?"

 

You're making the same incorrect assumption that I used to make. 

 

The referenced solubility ratio for ETOH is for pure lab grade ethanol.*  Extensive pharma solubility studies by Jouyban et. al have established that actual solubility varies widely with the concentration.  In other words, solubility is NOT linear, but varies with purity. 

 

Go this page and scroll down to reply #37.  This is a graphical presentation  of the solubility of common benzos over the range of purity ("dilution")  based on Jouyban's research.  The .4 on the X axis is approx equivalent to 80 proof vodka (40% alcohol)  Note that for all the benzos listed, the solubility at .4 (40%) is dramatically lower that at the peak  (about 90% pure, or 180 proof)

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

SG57, who prepared and posted that chart is a BB and fellow engineer.  He and I had extensive discussions on the solubility issue.  I had found data in a pharmacist handbook that showed the solubility of diazepam in alcohol was 16 mg per ml, and I used to post that number here on BB.  He finally convinced me that the solubility is NOT linear, but decreases dramatically at lower concentrations.

 

 

* See the source references listed on that page, or search "Jouyban pharma solubility" or "Jouyban-Acree model" if you really want to dig into it.  But be forwarned, the reports are pretty complex.

Thank you, you two.  And, wavesontheshore, I have looked up propylene glycol and I'm definitely not going that route as I feel the same as you. I will do the vodka route as even I, who absolutely despise alcohol, doubt I will succeed toward the end unless I taper less, etc. And, as builder said, one gets very little alcohol in a liquid benzo dose. Thank you, wavesontheshore, for your words of encouragement. I'm trusting I will. 

 

I will research what you all wrote about in the above two posts as right now, yep, it's way over my head.  I'll concentrate on builder's formula, buy my measuring stuff and the next taper, I do believe, will be liquid. 

"If this solubility number for ethanol is correct, Builder, could one get away with less vodka than usual?"

 

You're making the same incorrect assumption that I used to make. 

 

The referenced solubility ratio for ETOH is for pure lab grade ethanol.*  Extensive pharma solubility studies by Jouyban et. al have established that actual solubility varies widely with the concentration.  In other words, solubility is NOT linear, but varies with purity. 

 

Go this page and scroll down to reply #37.  This is a graphical presentation  of the solubility of common benzos over the range of purity ("dilution")  based on Jouyban's research.  The .4 on the X axis is approx equivalent to 80 proof vodka (40% alcohol)  Note that for all the benzos listed, the solubility at .4 (40%) is dramatically lower that at the peak  (about 90% pure, or 180 proof)

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.30

 

SG57, who prepared and posted that chart is a BB and fellow engineer.  He and I had extensive discussions on the solubility issue.  I had found data in a pharmacist handbook that showed the solubility of diazepam in alcohol was 16 mg per ml, and I used to post that number here on BB.  He finally convinced me that the solubility is NOT linear, but decreases dramatically at lower concentrations.

 

 

* See the source references listed on that page, or search "Jouyban pharma solubility" or "Jouyban-Acree model" if you really want to dig into it.  But be forwarned, the reports are pretty complex.

 

Hey, Builder!

 

Thank you so much for linking me to the graph that member made! I have already read the reports it was based on, and I do okay understanding terminology and concepts as well as the practical side, but when it comes to predictability and the math of it all, I get lost. I read a different study at one point that was just about diazepam  solubility, and that had some graphs, which gave me some understanding, but otherwise it has just been looking at tables and trying to make sense of them. I gave up trying to figure out how to convert from Mol to grams, and therefore never felt like I got what I needed out of it. That graph is great. I would love to double check his figures, but, again, the formulae are beyond me so I just have to trust.

 

So, given the information in his graph and in the thread...I have some questions.

 

All of these questions assume that the information he provided is correct, or at least fairly represents to results of the studies he is referencing.

 

1.) Why would we not always recommend Everclear vs vodka with a lower alcohol content?

 

2.) Why is so much alcohol quoted as being needed, in general, and why not delineate between different meds and their specific solubilities?

 

3.) What do you think of this member's theory that water solubility affects the ability of a benzo to remain in solution after being diluted with water? If this even might be true, why would we not always aim for an solution that considers this (when possible)?

 

Thanks for indulging me. This is interesting and I want to know more. Actually I feel like I need to know more, because this would directly affect my approach to a liquid taper, for myself or for someone else.

 

 

1.) Why would we not always recommend Everclear vs vodka with a lower alcohol content?

 

Certainly 180 proof vodka (90% alcohol) hits the sweet spot of the solubility curves, and there is no reason not to choose it as a benzo solvent.  A few caveats: Everclear is not legal in some states and jurisdictions, and in some areas it only available in lower strengths.  Vodka, OTH is almost universally and readily available,  and is fairly inexpensive.  And it works just fine, as long as you follow the 2ml per mg ratio. So while EverClear does work "better", 80 proof vodka works "good enough".

 

2.) Why is so much alcohol quoted as being needed, in general, and why not delineate between different meds and their specific solubilities?

 

I'm not sure I understand the question, but the chart does  delineate the specific solubility for the 4 common benzos.

 

3.) What do you think of this member's theory that water solubility affects the ability of a benzo to remain in solution after being diluted with water? If this even might be true, why would we not always aim for an solution that considers this (when possible)?

 

Once the actual dissolution process has taken place, the benzo has actually undergone change in form, from a solid material to a part of a liquid compound.  The 3 ingredients (ETOH, H20 and the benzo) are now bonded in uniique new compound.  The initial concentration (ratio) will vary the solubility, but once that transformation from solid to liquid has taken place, varying the ratio will not reverse the dissolution process.  Once you dissolve the benzo in the required amount of ETOH+H20, it won't matter whether you dilute with 8ml water (.1/ml), 98ml water. (.01mg/ml) or even 998ml (.001mg/ml).  The 3 components are not going to precipitate back out to their initial form

 

 

I read about these two suspensions on this site under Benzo Liquid Taper Help which goes along with the calculating chart.  "For those who for personal reasons do not wish to use alcohol or propylene glycol, SyrSpend®or Ora-Plus® can be used to create a suspension solution."

 

I don't mind the vodka deal but when I deciphered it into how much a day I'd get from builder's formula with 25 mg. of oxazepam and I'm understanding it correctly, it would equal 50 ml of solvent or 1.607 ounces or 3.3814 tablespoons A DAY, a bit much for me to consume daily. Yes, I realize by eliminating a little each day (when I get to the micro tapering) that goes down, but not quickly enough for me.  One isn't supposed to mix alcohol with benzos anyway and since I never drink, I don't think this is a good option for me. And no, I have never had a drinking probably or addiction of any kind, just this dang dependence on a benzo. I trust these suspensions still are okay to use even though it was proven that my benzo doesn't mix with water even though a buddie stated it did.

 

Also, I can't seem to find syringes with 50 to 100 divisions as recommended in the Taper Help.  It says to get 1 ml and 10 ml.  I can find them without enough divisions, but they seem to be all disposable.  Can't one use one time and time again?  Is this many divisions a must?

 

One last question, for now anyway ... If I start the liquid titration on the 25 mg. (may have to go back up to 30 mg. before I get my stuff as I am having a bit of a rough time of and on) but nevertheless, the same question applies ... Do I continue mixing that amount up every single day and withdraw the recommended ml from it for the course of the taper?

 

I am still learning and have been reading a lot so if these questions are inane to the pros, I apologize, but I do need help and I can guarantee my doctor is clueless.  He didn't even want to see me to discuss my taper, just prescribed the 10 mg to go with the 15 mg.  The pharmacist thinks I can just go longer between doses and surely he doesn't get all that's entailed either. 

 

Thank you.

, SyrSpend®or Ora-Plus® can be used to create a suspension solution."

 

A suspension and a solution are very different.  A suspension, as the name suggests, just means the tablet particles are randomly held in place ("suspended") in a viscous liquid.  In a solution, the benzo undergoes a molecular change from solid to liquid and is uniformly distributed throughout the liquid.  A solution is better, but I suspension is usually "good enough".

 

I don't mind the vodka deal but when I deciphered it into how much a day I'd get from builder's formula with 25 mg. of oxazepam and I'm understanding it correctly, it would equal 50 ml of solvent or 1.607 ounces or 3.3814 tablespoons A DAY, a bit much for me to consume daily.

 

Yes, that's true, if you take the entire dose from the liquid.  But that isn't necessary.  If you did 5mg from liquid, and the rest of your dose from tablets, as I proposed, you vodka/alcohol consumption is really insignificant.  As I said in that post "...the total amount of alcohol you took in a WEEK would probably not be enough for a standard cocktail/highball)".  Many folks choose to do a tablet/liquid combo for several different reasons, including minimizing the amount of solvent they need to ingest.

 

lso, I can't seem to find syringes with 50 to 100 divisions as recommended in the Taper Help.  It says to get 1 ml and 10 ml.  I can find them without enough divisions, but they seem to be all disposable.  Can't one use one time and time again?  Is this many divisions a must?

 

Widely available on Amazon, in a wide assortment of styles and capacities.  1ml syringes will either be graduated with 100 divisions (.01ml) or 50 divisions (.02ml).  Either one will work just as well.  Yes, they are disposable, but are definitely reusable oven and over.

 

One last question, for now anyway ... If I start the liquid titration on the 25 mg. (may have to go back up to 30 mg. before I get my stuff as I am having a bit of a rough time of and on) but nevertheless, the same question applies ... Do I continue mixing that amount up every single day and withdraw the recommended ml from it for the course of the taper?

 

Do NOT make a fresh solution each day!  Its labor-intensive, ineffecient, and wasteful.  Make a 10-14 day batch (approx 10X your starting dose) and just take the appropriate schedule dose each day, just as you would if it were any other liquid med from the pharmacy.

 

I am still learning and have been reading a lot so if these questions are inane to the pros, I apologize, but I do need help and I can guarantee my doctor is clueless.  He didn't even want to see me to discuss my taper, just prescribed the 10 mg to go with the 15 mg.  The pharmacist thinks I can just go longer between doses and surely he doesn't get all that's entailed either. 

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

Once the actual dissolution process has taken place, the benzo has actually undergone change in form, from a solid material to a part of a liquid compound.  The 3 ingredients (ETOH, H20 and the benzo) are now bonded in uniique new compound.  The initial concentration (ratio) will vary the solubility, but once that transformation from solid to liquid has taken place, varying the ratio will not reverse the dissolution process.  Once you dissolve the benzo in the required amount of ETOH+H20, it won't matter whether you dilute with 8ml water (.1/ml), 98ml water. (.01mg/ml) or even 998ml (.001mg/ml).  The 3 components are not going to precipitate back out to their initial form

 

 

 

A solid can come out of solution. This is a common technique to purify chemicals (recrystalization). You dissolve the solid in a solvent (as little as possible), then add another solvent the chemical is not soluble in. The chemical becomes a powder again. You pour the solution through a filter to filter out the solid chemical.

 

I don't know what fraction water to alcohol that will happen with the different benzos. I would imagine (I have no data to back up my opinion), if you dissolve 1 mg alprazolam in 2 mL vodka, then add 998 mL water, your xanax might come out of solution.  I just don't know what fraction alcohol to water that is.

, SyrSpend®or Ora-Plus® can be used to create a suspension solution."

 

A suspension and a solution are very different.  A suspension, as the name suggests, just means the tablet particles are randomly held in place ("suspended") in a viscous liquid.  In a solution, the benzo undergoes a molecular change from solid to liquid and is uniformly distributed throughout the liquid.  A solution is better, but I suspension is usually "good enough".

 

I don't mind the vodka deal but when I deciphered it into how much a day I'd get from builder's formula with 25 mg. of oxazepam and I'm understanding it correctly, it would equal 50 ml of solvent or 1.607 ounces or 3.3814 tablespoons A DAY, a bit much for me to consume daily.

 

Yes, that's true, if you take the entire dose from the liquid.  But that isn't necessary.  If you did 5mg from liquid, and the rest of your dose from tablets, as I proposed, you vodka/alcohol consumption is really insignificant.  As I said in that post "...the total amount of alcohol you took in a WEEK would probably not be enough for a standard cocktail/highball)".  Many folks choose to do a tablet/liquid combo for several different reasons, including minimizing the amount of solvent they need to ingest.

 

lso, I can't seem to find syringes with 50 to 100 divisions as recommended in the Taper Help.  It says to get 1 ml and 10 ml.  I can find them without enough divisions, but they seem to be all disposable.  Can't one use one time and time again?  Is this many divisions a must?

 

Widely available on Amazon, in a wide assortment of styles and capacities.  1ml syringes will either be graduated with 100 divisions (.01ml) or 50 divisions (.02ml).  Either one will work just as well.  Yes, they are disposable, but are definitely reusable oven and over.

 

One last question, for now anyway ... If I start the liquid titration on the 25 mg. (may have to go back up to 30 mg. before I get my stuff as I am having a bit of a rough time of and on) but nevertheless, the same question applies ... Do I continue mixing that amount up every single day and withdraw the recommended ml from it for the course of the taper?

 

Do NOT make a fresh solution each day!  Its labor-intensive, ineffecient, and wasteful.  Make a 10-14 day batch (approx 10X your starting dose) and just take the appropriate schedule dose each day, just as you would if it were any other liquid med from the pharmacy.

 

I am still learning and have been reading a lot so if these questions are inane to the pros, I apologize, but I do need help and I can guarantee my doctor is clueless.  He didn't even want to see me to discuss my taper, just prescribed the 10 mg to go with the 15 mg.  The pharmacist thinks I can just go longer between doses and surely he doesn't get all that's entailed either. 

 

Thank you.

 

Yes, I remember about the pills with the liquid, but that can't continue all the way down the taper because they don't come any lower than 10 mg.  But, I did forget about that when I mentioned all the booze I'd be consuming.    I will continue thinking out this plan.  This is very helpful and I thank you.

But if you do a combo using only 5mg liquid all the down to 10 mgs then switch to all liquid, your  vodka intake is still pretty small!

 

(and PG works just as well)

Okay, thanks.  I am still reading and searching.  May I use almond milk or fatty milk?  Does that mean whole milk?

 

 

 

 

Once the actual dissolution process has taken place, the benzo has actually undergone change in form, from a solid material to a part of a liquid compound.  The 3 ingredients (ETOH, H20 and the benzo) are now bonded in uniique new compound.  The initial concentration (ratio) will vary the solubility, but once that transformation from solid to liquid has taken place, varying the ratio will not reverse the dissolution process.  Once you dissolve the benzo in the required amount of ETOH+H20, it won't matter whether you dilute with 8ml water (.1/ml), 98ml water. (.01mg/ml) or even 998ml (.001mg/ml).  The 3 components are not going to precipitate back out to their initial form

 

 

 

A solid can come out of solution. This is a common technique to purify chemicals (recrystalization). You dissolve the solid in a solvent (as little as possible), then add another solvent the chemical is not soluble in. The chemical becomes a powder again. You pour the solution through a filter to filter out the solid chemical.

 

I don't know what fraction water to alcohol that will happen with the different benzos. I would imagine (I have no data to back up my opinion), if you dissolve 1 mg alprazolam in 2 mL vodka, then add 998 mL water, your xanax might come out of solution.  I just don't know what fraction alcohol to water that is.

 

Exactly. I get that it's an unknown. I was just saying that if it is a possibility, why not account for it?

 

And Builder, if that graph is correct, even with 80 proof, yes, you need 2 ml for 1 MG klon, but you only need a little more than 0.5 ml for a MG of valium, and less than 1/3 of a ml for a MG of Ativan. I was just asking why we don't account for that? Why generalize it to the klon requirement  (again, assuming you trust the study data).

 

I am not trying to be a pain, just trying to have a discussion about this, in order to further empower myself with knowledge.

 

And sorry to be hijacking your thread CAgirl. Yes, you can use full-fat milk or whole milk to make an emulsion. It's not the same as a solution but seems to work for a lot of people.

 

 

 

 

Once the actual dissolution process has taken place, the benzo has actually undergone change in form, from a solid material to a part of a liquid compound.  The 3 ingredients (ETOH, H20 and the benzo) are now bonded in uniique new compound.  The initial concentration (ratio) will vary the solubility, but once that transformation from solid to liquid has taken place, varying the ratio will not reverse the dissolution process.  Once you dissolve the benzo in the required amount of ETOH+H20, it won't matter whether you dilute with 8ml water (.1/ml), 98ml water. (.01mg/ml) or even 998ml (.001mg/ml).  The 3 components are not going to precipitate back out to their initial form

 

 

 

A solid can come out of solution. This is a common technique to purify chemicals (recrystalization). You dissolve the solid in a solvent (as little as possible), then add another solvent the chemical is not soluble in. The chemical becomes a powder again. You pour the solution through a filter to filter out the solid chemical.

 

I don't know what fraction water to alcohol that will happen with the different benzos. I would imagine (I have no data to back up my opinion), if you dissolve 1 mg alprazolam in 2 mL vodka, then add 998 mL water, your xanax might come out of solution.  I just don't know what fraction alcohol to water that is.

 

Exactly. I get that it's an unknown. I was just saying that if it is a possibility, why not account for it?

 

And Builder, if that graph is correct, even with 80 proof, yes, you need 2 ml for 1 MG klon, but you only need a little more than 0.5 ml for a MG of valium, and less than 1/3 of a ml for a MG of Ativan. I was just asking why we don't account for that? Why generalize it to the klon requirement  (again, assuming you trust the study data).

 

I am not trying to be a pain, just trying to have a discussion about this, in order to further empower myself with knowledge.

 

And sorry to be hijacking your thread CAgirl. Yes, you can use full-fat milk or whole milk to make an emulsion. It's not the same as a solution but seems to work for a lot of people.

 

 

 

 

 

Once the actual dissolution process has taken place, the benzo has actually undergone change in form, from a solid material to a part of a liquid compound.  The 3 ingredients (ETOH, H20 and the benzo) are now bonded in uniique new compound.  The initial concentration (ratio) will vary the solubility, but once that transformation from solid to liquid has taken place, varying the ratio will not reverse the dissolution process.  Once you dissolve the benzo in the required amount of ETOH+H20, it won't matter whether you dilute with 8ml water (.1/ml), 98ml water. (.01mg/ml) or even 998ml (.001mg/ml).  The 3 components are not going to precipitate back out to their initial form

 

 

 

A solid can come out of solution. This is a common technique to purify chemicals (recrystalization). You dissolve the solid in a solvent (as little as possible), then add another solvent the chemical is not soluble in. The chemical becomes a powder again. You pour the solution through a filter to filter out the solid chemical.

 

I don't know what fraction water to alcohol that will happen with the different benzos. I would imagine (I have no data to back up my opinion), if you dissolve 1 mg alprazolam in 2 mL vodka, then add 998 mL water, your xanax might come out of solution.  I just don't know what fraction alcohol to water that is.

 

Exactly. I get that it's an unknown. I was just saying that if it is a possibility, why not account for it?

 

And Builder, if that graph is correct, even with 80 proof, yes, you need 2 ml for 1 MG klon, but you only need a little more than 0.5 ml for a MG of valium, and less than 1/3 of a ml for a MG of Ativan. I was just asking why we don't account for that? Why generalize it to the klon requirement  (again, assuming you trust the study data).

 

I am not trying to be a pain, just trying to have a discussion about this, in order to further empower myself with knowledge.

 

And sorry to be hijacking your thread CAgirl. Yes, you can use full-fat milk or whole milk to make an emulsion. It's not the same as a solution but seems to work for a lot of people.

 

Yes, a solute CAN be titrated or distilled back out, using various lab or industrial process, but just adding more water will definitely NOT cause it to precipitate  back out.  Once it is already a solution, changing the water fraction will only make it more dilute.  It will NOT make it unstable.

 

Why 2mg per ml?  Why not?

 

  Yes, its just a general rule but it works for all common benzos.    Look how many folks actually struggle with the 1mg + 2ml solvent +8ml water formula.* ("...I can't do the math",  "...what does ratio mean?",  ...I don't know how to figure a percentage...etc") How helpful do you think it will be if the formula is 1mg + .6ml + 9.4ml, or 1mg + .3ml + 9.7ml?

 

Also, the 1mg:2ml is a cautious ratio that will cover a lot or unconsidered variables.  The Jouyban data in the chart was gathered under laboratory conditions, using lab pure ingredient, at standard conditions (ambient 70%, neutral Ph, etc.)  You probably won't actually duplicate that in your kitchen.

 

I strive to show folks what I believe to be the easiest way to taper, in a format that they can grasp.  If they can use a calculator, even the "math-challenged" can (usually) follow my instructions.  Your numbers are of course more precise, and fit specific benzos.  But I can't see how that really adds any benefit.

 

*  I don't in anyway mean that to be demeaning to anyone. But it's obviously a fair generalization.  Probably 3/4 of the inquiries I respond to will have some stated disclosure that the questioner is "math-challenged"

You didn't hijack my thread, wavesontheshore.  No worries.  Thanks for the answer about the milk.  I believe I'll try that and trust it will work well.

 

 

 

 

Once the actual dissolution process has taken place, the benzo has actually undergone change in form, from a solid material to a part of a liquid compound.  The 3 ingredients (ETOH, H20 and the benzo) are now bonded in uniique new compound.  The initial concentration (ratio) will vary the solubility, but once that transformation from solid to liquid has taken place, varying the ratio will not reverse the dissolution process.  Once you dissolve the benzo in the required amount of ETOH+H20, it won't matter whether you dilute with 8ml water (.1/ml), 98ml water. (.01mg/ml) or even 998ml (.001mg/ml).  The 3 components are not going to precipitate back out to their initial form

 

 

 

A solid can come out of solution. This is a common technique to purify chemicals (recrystalization). You dissolve the solid in a solvent (as little as possible), then add another solvent the chemical is not soluble in. The chemical becomes a powder again. You pour the solution through a filter to filter out the solid chemical.

 

I don't know what fraction water to alcohol that will happen with the different benzos. I would imagine (I have no data to back up my opinion), if you dissolve 1 mg alprazolam in 2 mL vodka, then add 998 mL water, your xanax might come out of solution.  I just don't know what fraction alcohol to water that is.

 

Exactly. I get that it's an unknown. I was just saying that if it is a possibility, why not account for it?

 

And Builder, if that graph is correct, even with 80 proof, yes, you need 2 ml for 1 MG klon, but you only need a little more than 0.5 ml for a MG of valium, and less than 1/3 of a ml for a MG of Ativan. I was just asking why we don't account for that? Why generalize it to the klon requirement  (again, assuming you trust the study data).

 

I am not trying to be a pain, just trying to have a discussion about this, in order to further empower myself with knowledge.

 

Yes, a solute CAN be titrated or distilled back out, using various lab or industrial process, but just adding more water will definitely NOT cause it to precipitate  back out.  Once it is already a solution, changing the water fraction will only make it more dilute.  It will NOT make it unstable.

 

Why 2mg per ml?  Why not?

 

  Yes, its just a general rule but it works for all common benzos.    Look how many folks actually struggle with the 1mg + 2ml solvent +8ml water formula.* ("...I can't do the math",  "...what does ratio mean?",  ...I don't know how to figure a percentage...etc") How helpful do you think it will be if the formula is 1mg + .6ml + 9.4ml, or 1mg + .3ml + 9.7ml?

 

Also, the 1mg:2ml is a cautious ratio that will cover a lot or unconsidered variables.  The Jouyban data in the chart was gathered under laboratory conditions, using lab pure ingredient, at standard conditions (ambient 70%, neutral Ph, etc.)  You probably won't actually duplicate that in your kitchen.

 

I strive to show folks what I believe to be the easiest way to taper, in a format that they can grasp.  If they can use a calculator, even the "math-challenged" can (usually) follow my instructions.  Your numbers are of course more precise, and fit specific benzos.  But I can't see how that really adds any benefit.

 

*  I don't in anyway mean that to be demeaning to anyone. But it's obviously a fair generalization.  Probably 3/4 of the inquiries I respond to will have some stated disclosure that the questioner is "math-challenged"

 

You make a good point about simplicity being important. You are right that many people are overwhelmed by the math even if they are capable of it. No one ever planned on having to formulate their own medication, so it can be a bit overwhelming, especially considering the fact that big pharma has us so convinced we should trust them and only them to solve all of our problems.

 

I am just thinking that if you have someone who is trying to titrate Ativan, for instance, with those terrible tiny 0.5mg pills, and let's say they are sensitive to alcohol and this is the one thing keeping them from completing their taper, in that situation wouldn't it be worth it, not to use the precise number, maybe, but a closer equivalent, to reduce the amount of solvent they have to use?

 

I mean, this is purely theoretical because too little solvent poses other problems if people aren't making big enough batches. I guess it would come into play more often with diazepam because of higher dosages, though in that case they can do a mix of tablets and liquid usually like you suggested (unless they only have 10mg tablets and no way to get lower strength ones).

 

As to the "staying in solution" question, can I ask what makes you so sure? Again, I mean no offense, rather I genuinely would like to feel as sure as you do, and am hoping I can get there, but I am the kind of person who can't just take someone's word on such things (hence me reading as best I could countless studies about this stuff, AND drilling compounding pharmacists to see what they know about solubility (answer-very little)). Do you have a source you can recommend me to? Has anyone run chromatography after further dilution of the solution?

 

Also, hopetodothis? I know you are our resident labrat, do you have anything else to add?

Hi wavesontheshore,

 

Like builder was alluding to, the scope of solubility runs deep and there are a ton of variables.  I love how intellectually hungry you are, so here's some references you may want to dive into:

 

Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals (you can directly download it as a .pdf): 

http://chemistry-chemists.com/chemister/Spravochniki/handbook-of-solubility-data-for-pharmaceuticals-2010.pdf

 

Solubility of Chlordiazepoxide, Diazepam, and Lorazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures:

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc402444/

 

Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures:

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc674044/

 

Thanks for all your generosity in helping! 

 

sierra

Hi wavesontheshore,

 

Like builder was alluding to, the scope of solubility runs deep and there are a ton of variables.  I love how intellectually hungry you are, so here's some references you may want to dive into:

 

Handbook of Solubility Data for Pharmaceuticals (you can directly download it as a .pdf): 

http://chemistry-chemists.com/chemister/Spravochniki/handbook-of-solubility-data-for-pharmaceuticals-2010.pdf

 

Solubility of Chlordiazepoxide, Diazepam, and Lorazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures:

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc402444/

 

Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures:

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc674044/

 

Thanks for all your generosity in helping! 

 

sierra

 

Ooo I can't wait to dig into those!

 

And wavesontheshore, I've never worked with benzos in the lab. And my go to reference (USP/NF) is no help because all the test solutions use other solvents like methanol and acetonitrile. Although I should check the dissolution tests again. Those try to dissolve a tablet in 1 liter of water, and there's usually a requirement that 70% of the drug in the tablet should be dissolved. I will check tomorrow.

Since I’ve pretty much decided to use milk, do I still use the same ratio of 2 ml milk and 8ml water with 1 mg. of benzo?  I saw a you tube video with a guy who used milk and he didn’t use water, so just wanted to make sure.  I would consider the ora-plus but if milk is just as good, I’ll do that.  Are there any pros and cons between the two that you guys know of?

 

Builder said to use pills plus liquid which is great but when I entered my information into the Benzo Liquid Taper Plan on this site with pills, it shows to take cut tablets at different times and, of course, my capsules can’t be cut into smaller portions.  I don’t want to weigh them and do a liquid taper, so how do I get around this?

 

By the way, I went back to 30 mg. starting today, the 6th day into week 8 and a 25 mg taper per the week.  I just couldn’t hack all that was going on even though sometimes I felt okay, but other times I was at the bottom or the barrel.

 

What I’ve entered into the plan follows.  Did I choose the right parameters?

 

15 mg tablet (capsule, in my case) size (I would use two of them) Since they're capsules, would I put 30 mg here?

planned quit dose - .05 mg

3 doses of 10 mg each

number of tablets to dissolve – 10 (not sure about this if I'm dissolving 30 mg, 2 @ 15 mg)

total volume of liquid – 1500 Or should this be 3000 if I put a 30 mg tablet on the first line, 2 @ 15mg each?

planned reduction – 5% every 14 days

across doses (Would first dose first be better?)

 

Of course, this is entered for straight liquid, so I’m clueless as to what I should or could do to be able to take a daily pill for a while if it is deemed necessary.

 

 

Would I do different plans for different times?  Like what if I don't want to dissolve that many pills (10) another time, then I'd have to redo the plan, right?

 

I'm told this is easy and maybe I'm overthinking it, but it doesn't seem easy to me at all.  If I were to do a one-day mix, that would make so much more sense to me, but it would be wasteful.

 

Or, do you think at my age (70), I should just forget it and let sleeping dogs lie?  I must admit I’m a bit afraid since I’ve been on them 20 years and am not wanting to make things worse since I function well on them. Until this week, I was quite pleased with the progress and even excited to start a new taper.  Ugh!  Who knew?  I asked my doctor well over a year ago if he thought I should get off them and he said, “No.”  Whatev! 

 

Again, thanks!  I have no support except this forum.