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Time to switch to DLMT?


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Hi everyone - if you look at my signature you'll see I have quite a bit of a history with psych meds although I have never taken benzos for more than a few months at a time, almost always on a prn basis. Unfortunately my most recent experience with Xanax threw my nervous system so out of whack that I sought out a benzo-wise doctor and am now tapering off of Valium. I started 20mg on 11/23, began my taper on 12/13, and am now down to 13.75mg, split into morning and evening doses. The first 5mg weren't too bad but I am currently in a wave (greatly worsened anxiety and dp/dr although my sleep is still decent) that started about 5 days after my most recent cut on Jan. 25th.

 

I know Valium tapers are famous for catching up with people and I will admit that cutting 31% over 6 weeks after only 3 weeks of stabilizing on a new med (after two c/t's, mind you) was probably too much for my system. That being said, I had a few beers the night after my most recent cut, followed by another beer a few nights later. I also tried out some magnesium a few days ago which I believe I had a bad reaction to.

 

I plan on holding until at least the 15th (maybe longer), which will be 3 weeks after my most recent cut. My original plan was to dry cut down to 9mg with roughly 10% reductions every 2-3 weeks and then begin a DLMT using a vodka solution. That being said, my most recent cut has scared me enough that I'm considering starting the liquid taper with my next cut. However, the mix of alcohol, magnesium, and other life stresses around the time of the previous cut is making me wonder what truly put me into this wave.

 

1) Could I try at least one more dry cut? Or would it be wise to just start a liquid taper beginning with my next cut?

2) Is 10% every 2-3 weeks warranted given my short history with benzos, or should I be more conservative considering my history of PTSD, nervous system issues, and hyper-sensitivity to medication? I hate the idea of taking a year+ to taper off of a med that I used as needed for just a few months, but I understand everyone's experience is their own.

3) I was planning on getting my AM and PM doses down to 5mg each, then tapering off the morning dose completely, then the evening. Does this sound reasonable?

 

Appreciate the help. By the way, I will not be drinking or taking any more supplements during my taper.

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I always say folks should follow whatever protocol they feel comfortable with, but...

 

I will never understand why folks feel they should do C&H down to some point before starting daily microtaper.

 

Smaller cuts, more often, will always be the most gentle way to discontinue your benzo.  Nothing will be smoother, and cause less discomfort than a daily microtaper.

 

I did a (difficult) C&H from 15mg down to 9mg.  At 9mg the sxs became intolerable.  Once I started DLMT, I had only mild, occasional sxs, none of which were really troublesome.  If I ever had to do it over again (Hint: I won't!  ;) ) I would start a DLMT at the outset.

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I always say folks should follow whatever protocol they feel comfortable with, but...

 

I will never understand why folks feel they should do C&H down to some point before starting daily microtaper.

 

Smaller cuts, more often, will always be the most gentle way to discontinue your benzo.  Nothing will be smoother, and cause less discomfort than a daily microtaper.

 

I did a (difficult) C&H from 15mg down to 9mg.  At 9mg the sxs became intolerable.  Once I started DLMT, I had only mild, occasional sxs, none of which were really troublesome.  If I ever had to do it over again (Hint: I won't!  ;) ) I would start a DLMT at the outset.

 

I appreciate the response builder. As to your question about C&H, I think it probably comes from a place of stubbornness, at least in my case. You are correct though: micro-cuts are the way to go, logically.

 

If you don't mind me asking, how long did you hold between your last cut and the start of your micro-taper? I'd like to hold for a bit here, but I'm not sure how long is too long.

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I appreciate the response builder. As to your question about C&H, I think it probably comes from a place of stubbornness, at least in my case. You are correct though: micro-cuts are the way to go, logically.

Unfortunately, I think that's the basis for many folks taper choices!  ::)

 

If you don't mind me asking, how long did you hold between your last cut and the start of your micro-taper? I'd like to hold for a bit here, but I'm not sure how long is too long.

 

There is no "too long" IMO. But if you haven't recovered in 10-14 days, you just need to updose back to a dose that was tolerable. I "held" for about 2 years.  But in the interest of full disclosure, that was not done  in the way, or for the reasons, that most folks mean when they say they are holding.  It really a surrender, a capitulation.

 

As I said, when I got down to 9mg, no matter how little I tried to drop, the sxs were unrelenting.  I made multiple attempt to cut to 8.5mg, and the sxs were intolerable each time.  And after 7-10 days of misery, I would updose and go back"normal". So basically, I just resigned myself to have to stay on 9mg/dose for the rest of my life.  Not a very pleasing prospect, but it was better than the alternative.

 

But then I found Benzo Detox Recovery, Jana Hill, and Daily Liquid MicroTapering.  And that made such perfect sense, I just knew it would work.

 

And it did.

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I appreciate the response builder. As to your question about C&H, I think it probably comes from a place of stubbornness, at least in my case. You are correct though: micro-cuts are the way to go, logically.

Unfortunately, I think that's the basis for many folks taper choices!  ::)

 

If you don't mind me asking, how long did you hold between your last cut and the start of your micro-taper? I'd like to hold for a bit here, but I'm not sure how long is too long.

 

There is no "too long" IMO. But if you haven't recovered in 10-14 days, you just need to updose back to a dose that was tolerable. I "held" for about 2 years.  But in the interest of full disclosure, that was not done  in the way, or for the reasons, that most folks mean when they say they are holding.  It really a surrender, a capitulation.

 

As I said, when I got down to 9mg, no matter how little I tried to drop, the sxs were unrelenting.  I made multiple attempt to cut to 8.5mg, and the sxs were intolerable each time.  And after 7-10 days of misery, I would updose and go back"normal". So basically, I just resigned myself to have to stay on 9mg/dose for the rest of my life.  Not a very pleasing prospect, but it was better than the alternative.

 

But then I found Benzo Detox Recovery, Jana Hill, and Daily Liquid MicroTapering.  And that made such perfect sense, I just knew it would work.

 

And it did.

 

Thanks. I'll stick it out a while longer and see how I feel.

 

Any advice on my question about AM and PM doses? The Ashton Manual advises you to stay on 8mg at night while tapering down the AM dose but that seems a bit imbalanced to me. I could be wrong, though.

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My advice: listen to Builder and do a daily micro-taper. I am about to start one next week (been holding on 3mg for about 10 days). Builder knows his stuff and helps so many people on here. I honestly wish there was a Builder thread. I read his past posts often as they motivate me on this journey and never scare me like horror stories from people suffering after a rapid taper or c/t (my other advice: find people to connect with that have positive outlooks and stay away from reading scary stuff. I try and support as many people as I can but as I don't have so many of the awful symptoms so many people do (my heart truly aches for them), I can't be that helpful. I feel so lucky that I can go out every day, cook, shop, exercise (within reason) and enjoy TV and reading.

 

Definitely so a micro-taper. I campaign for this all the time - and I haven't even started it - but everyone I have read has a much smoother time and it just logically makes more sense. And it will help you step off smoothly and not "jump" into a sea of s/x.

 

Stay strong and listen to your body. We got your back!

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Hey milliways!

 

Just thought I would pipe in. Welcome to the boards. I am sorry you are here but glad you're here, if that makes sense. You sound like a strong person and I am sure that you are going to do great with your taper. The key is to slow down as you get lower in dose so that the percentage of current dose doesn't get too high. Dropping 2 mg when you are at 20 is a 10% drop, but dropping 2 when you are at 10 is a 20% drop. Just keep this in mind and listen to your body and you will be fine.

 

I agree with everything Pete said, and Builder is definitely your guy if/when you want to switch to the liquid. He is sharp as a tack and generous with his time.

 

Since you said that you want to "hold out" a while longer, I would like to let you know that it is possible to start microtapering while still dry cutting. All you have to do is order a gem20 milligram scale off of amazon, and you can start dropping your dose daily by shaving weight off your pills using a nail file or exacto knife. I use a specialty craft knife that you can also find on amazon.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Olfa-Ol-tk-Touch-Knife-Yellow/dp/B000GLRHQ8/ref=mp_s_a_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1549330911&sr=8-8&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=olfa+touch+knife&dpPl=1&dpID=21MHDJJdfIL&ref=plSrch

 

If you want any other help, don't hesitate to ask. :)

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Any advice on my question about AM and PM doses? The Ashton Manual advises you to stay on 8mg at night while tapering down the AM dose but that seems a bit imbalanced to me. I could be wrong, though.

 

As long as you take it all within a 24 hour period, I really doesn't matter how you divvy it up.

 

In fact, many folks do just fine a 1 dose per day.

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Thanks for the support everyone, greatly appreciated and desperately needed during a time like this. As my signature alludes to, I went through all of this in the summer of 2016 and obviously didn't learn my lesson. The second time around is always worse. If anything this is a nice wake-up call for me that I need to stop living my life on auto-pilot and start facing my past traumas etc.

 

I plan on sitting at my current dose until at least the 15th, no excuses. Then I'll feel out the best time to start my liquid taper.

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Any advice on my question about AM and PM doses? The Ashton Manual advises you to stay on 8mg at night while tapering down the AM dose but that seems a bit imbalanced to me. I could be wrong, though.

 

As long as you take it all within a 24 hour period, I really doesn't matter how you divvy it up.

 

In fact, many folks do just fine a 1 dose per day.

 

I agree. But I also think that all of us are here because we are just a little bit more sensitive to chemical changes than the average person, so I advocate for no unnecessary changes. If you are accustomed to dosing twice daily, and it is manageable to continue that way, why change it? Just taper from both simultaneously/equally or alternate between the two.

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Any advice on my question about AM and PM doses? The Ashton Manual advises you to stay on 8mg at night while tapering down the AM dose but that seems a bit imbalanced to me. I could be wrong, though.

 

As long as you take it all within a 24 hour period, I really doesn't matter how you divvy it up.

 

In fact, many folks do just fine a 1 dose per day.

 

I agree. But I also think that all of us are here because we are just a little bit more sensitive to chemical changes than the average person, so I advocate for no unnecessary changes. If you are accustomed to dosing twice daily, and it is manageable to continue that way, why change it? Just taper from both simultaneously/equally or alternate between the two.

 

When I switched over from C&H to liquid taper I stayed with the twice a day dosing, alternating at first then simultaneously when I increased the rate upon feeling much better.

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Milliways - the second time does not have to be worse. Kindling is a word used a lot here but all the evidence is anecdotal. Ask Builder what he thinks of "kindling."

 

If you do a daily micro-taper is will make things much smoother and manageable all the way down to 0 and will help avoid PAWS and a bad post-step-off w/d.

 

You can do this. I am doing it too - we are all in this together!

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Milliways - the second time does not have to be worse. Kindling is a word used a lot here but all the evidence is anecdotal. Ask Builder what he thinks of "kindling."

 

 

 

Just for clarification, the material I shared with you on another thread was quoted from Colin, site owner/administrator.  My own views are probably even more critical of the use of that term.

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Milliways - the second time does not have to be worse. Kindling is a word used a lot here but all the evidence is anecdotal. Ask Builder what he thinks of "kindling."

 

If you do a daily micro-taper is will make things much smoother and manageable all the way down to 0 and will help avoid PAWS and a bad post-step-off w/d.

 

You can do this. I am doing it too - we are all in this together!

 

I was told I was "kindled" from attempting the cold turkey for 3 days then reinstating.  When you are kindled you are supposed to have a super rough time with tapering, once I switched over to DLMT I had a super easy taper.  The only rough time I had was when doing C&H and I was cutting way too fast.  I think the term "kindling" is only useful to those who use fear tactics to try to get you into their facility and charge $30K to get you off benzos in two weeks.

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Milliways - the second time does not have to be worse. Kindling is a word used a lot here but all the evidence is anecdotal. Ask Builder what he thinks of "kindling."

 

If you do a daily micro-taper is will make things much smoother and manageable all the way down to 0 and will help avoid PAWS and a bad post-step-off w/d.

 

You can do this. I am doing it too - we are all in this together!

 

I agree with you Horizon about "kindling" - people here use that word a lot but then people throw around a lot of jargon too and everyone wants to be a doctor.

 

So glad you are having a good taper with DLMT. I am about to start a DLMT and very excited to not have to endure more cut and holds which really hit me when I got to 3mg from 10mg...

 

Wishing you lots of healing!

 

I was told I was "kindled" from attempting the cold turkey for 3 days then reinstating.  When you are kindled you are supposed to have a super rough time with tapering, once I switched over to DLMT I had a super easy taper.  The only rough time I had was when doing C&H and I was cutting way too fast.  I think the term "kindling" is only useful to those who use fear tactics to try to get you into their facility and charge $30K to get you off benzos in two weeks.

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Thanks so much everyone!

 

One more question: is there a strong opinion around here regarding liquid diazepam vs. vodka solution vs. PG solution? I've read that the first can be expensive, I worry about the second due to alcohol content, and I have read that the third might or might not be questionable for consumption.

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The Rx liquid is definitely the most convenient and most reliable option for tapering.  Yes. compared to tablets, its more expensive.  But before you panic, figure out how much more its actually going to cost over the course of you taper.  And ask yourself if its worth it because of its advantages.  As I recall, 500ml of Diazepam Oral Solution was $110.  But 1 500ml bottle was enough for my whole 2 year taper.  And if it helps you get off of this nasty benzo, does it really matter if it costs a little more anyway?

 

If you do the vodka taper, you can set up a plan that would never require taking more than 1ml (.03ozs) of vodka per day.  It would take 2 months to consume enough vodka to make a single cocktail/mixed drink.

 

But if that really bothers you do the PG. In the US, there are 5 liquid benzo formulations, 4 of them are made with PG.

 

 

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Thanks for this info Builder - I just PMed you. I ended up getting the tablets. It wasn't the price but I was scared I would get the liquid and mess it up...probably dumb of me but now I have to use vodka and make the solution myself...

 

I want to thank you again for helping so many people on here. You are a true lifesaver and I could never do this without your help and support. I love your posts - the way you say things really resonates with me.

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Thanks again everyone. I see my doctor again in two weeks. Curious if he'll be able to give me a combo of 5mg and 2mg pills and/or liquid. I know many doctors are hesitant to provide more than one prescription due to regulations so I guess I'll see. Any advice on how I should approach asking? He is very familiar with Ashton and has said I can go as slow as needed.
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