Flumazenil...... Anyone ????

I called my Dr. Today,and he actually returned my call..... LOL !

 

We spoke at length about my current modified Ashton's method.

 

He has already been successful at crosssing me over from 4mgs Ativan to 20mgs Valium and 2 mgs Ativan (50%) in one month, and believes that his next steps, which are planned as, 30mgs Valium and 1mg Ativan for one month, then 40mg Valium for a month before starting 10% cuts, and doing a slow detox, that he says may take 6 to 9 months, and will still probably cause some  minor withdrawl symptoms for 2 - 3 months after all the benzos are out of my body.

 

Option 2, which I strongly rejected.... was a chemical detox, which he explained was very harsh, usually leads to benzo withdrawl syndrome that could last a year, and is un-necessary unless someone really needed to get of benzos really quicky, as in, to pass a drug test for a job or a similar situation.

 

I have another option.....

 

My wife and I would be flown to the Coleman Institute in Virginia, where they use Flumazenil to detox you in 5 days, then keep you for 3 weeks, doing a sophisticated assessment of your long term withdrawl, and, as each individual is different, custom tailoring a withdrawl regimen that is going to be the most successful, and then following up for one year woth my Dr. here in KY.

 

Has anyone had any experience or known anyone who has any experience with the Coleman Institute or any Flumazenil withdrawl program ?

We had a member join last month who'd been to the Coleman Institute, he didn't have much good to say about it.

 

EYE OPENER!

 

This sucks now but I agree with you guys....I am not going to take it in the AM like he said.  I will call him and talk about my concern....He said and I qoute "Your addicted to Clonz, that's why you feel like $hit....try the X xr's and stabalize.....I believe that NOW I am in w/d from clonz.....I was at .125 then c/t...then E.R.- re-ensated to 1mg AM 1mgPM then went to "the Coleman Institute" of horror and after day one was given an adivan shot and re-enstated to 3 MG's a day on Clon and I have HORRIBLE anxiety.....why do I feel worse if I'm on more than I've ever been??? 

 

 

 

I also used the search function and came up with some threads, there are many more.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=6164.0

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=21434.0

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=15865.0

 

I vote for the slow taper, time is your best and in my opinion the only true healer.

Flumazenil is bad news for benzo detox and Coleman has a less-than-stellar reputation.  BY FAR, your safest bet is a slow taper like you describe above.  You will suffer less intense withdrawals (if you suffer at all) for a shorter period of time if you take that route. 

 

As I understand it, a "rapid detox" with Flumazenil typically goes something like this:

 

1) You are pumped full of "supplemental medications" to reduce seizure risk and alleviate the horrible withdrawal symptoms that come from the administration of Flumazenil.  This will probably be something like tegretol, gabapentin, visteril, and seroquel. 

 

2) They slowly administer the Flumazenil in increasing doses which throws you into a fast and intense acute withdrawal. 

 

3) They repeatedly test your blood for benzo levels until it approaches 0, at which point your "detox" is complete.

 

The problem with this method is that taking the benzo out of your blood is only the beginning of the withdrawal process.  Your brain make take months to re-adapt after the drug is withdrawn and Flumazenil cannot speed up this process.  Further, you're typically just confusing your brain by adding all the other medications that they put you on.  Every person I have seen write about this type of detox claims that they remain sick long after they leave the clinic.  Also, people often suffer seizures and even death during these detoxes.  I have seen a few stories online about deaths at the Coleman Institute. 

 

If you have a doctor who is willing to do a slow taper with valium, you are golden.  A lot of people who do it that way don't even suffer any severe withdrawal symptoms.  If you do, they will be much less intense and shorter in duration that if you do it quickly.  Unfortunately, the shortest path to recovery is the slowest method. 

By the way, kyjim, your doctor sounds like a real champ.  You'd be hard-pressed to find another doctor anywhere who understands how to get people off these drugs like he clearly does.  Trust him and follow his instructions because it sounds like he has a great plan and is definitely taking your health seriously. 

Thank You. I needed the wisdom of experience,as opposed to the available options are.

I am going to stick with the crossover and the Valium taper,althugh I am a bit apprehensive,am I as one of the unfortunates who stopped taking 3mg/day of K-Pin C/T because I didn't know any better.

I was a mess for 3 days,and on the 4th day,I lost it....

The police came,and EMS took me to the hospital,where I ended up on the psych ward involuntarily,full of Thorozine and Halidol,was reinstated on the K-pin,and then arrested 72 hours later upon release from the hospital. (I had allegedly choked a police officer at some point during the ordeal in my driveway,but he later dropped the charges thank goodness).

I am doing OK on the crossover so far. No bad anxiety. A few benzo rage issues,but I am learning to avoid stressful situations.

Thank you for your knowlege and wisdom. It is a true Blessing to have access to information on a subject that alot of doctors seem to be lost on.

I read,(wikipedia),that 35% of long term Benzodiazepine users have serious withdrawl issues. Are doctors unaware of this,or just playing the , "Its all in your head" game becuse they don't have the answers? My doctor has been in practice for over 20 years,yet,supposedly,had never heard of Ashton's Method !  I had to download the manual and show it to him....

I don't know what is going on with the doctors.  I can only think it is a mix of many things:

 

- Psychiatrists are trained to view patients as "clinical subjects" with pre-existing emotional/mental issues.  Since the withdrawal effects of benzos can mostly be categorized as side effects of anxiety and depression, and because most of the long-term users have histories of anxiety and depression, it is just too easy to blame a pre-existing issue.

 

- Most doctors who would prescribe benzodiazepines for more than a few weeks are probably pretty careless anyway.  If they haven't bothered to read the literature on the drugs they prescribe, why would they read the literature on withdrawal from those drugs?

 

- A lot of long-term users can indeed get off these drugs without major issues. 

 

- People who do end up suffering no longer trust their doctors and seek help elsewhere so the docs are never informed of the problems.  I was in this category of patient, but I ended up writing a long letter to inform her of what I was experiencing.  She was "surprised" to hear I was having issues.

 

Hi Ryan

I think I read earlier posts by you on using Flumazenil.  Have you heard of any one using small tiny amounts during tapering to help Gaba receptors open and attract Gaba?  Or taking small doses after tapering if PWD is an issue...

 

I read a research article where they are using almost homeopathic amounts (of other drugs) in opiate w/d with great success in speeding up taper and reducing w/d sx.  I was given another article which pointed to the opiate study and speculated if using Flumazenil in the same manner in Benzo w/d might have a benefical effect.

 

I think you said in an earlier post that your DR was interested in you using pills?  May be incorrect but I was searching posts and I thought your were also doing some research on the idea.

 

Mimi

Flumazenil is a "benzodiazepine antagonist," meaning that it reverses the effects of benzodiazepines.  They use it in ER's to take people out of benzo-induced comas and to wake people up after surgery.  If you are still dependent on benzos and you take Flumazenil, you will immediately be thrown into acute withdrawal and are likely to have a seizure.  It's really bad news. 

 

What I was discussing is using Flumazenil for protracted withdrawal, months after one has been abstinent from benzos.  Some people think it can relieve symptoms but it is very short-acting so it will only work for a few hours at a time.

I called my Dr. Today,and he actually returned my call..... LOL !

 

We spoke at length about my current modified Ashton's method.

 

He has already been successful at crosssing me over from 4mgs Ativan to 20mgs Valium and 2 mgs Ativan (50%) in one month, and believes that his next steps, which are planned as, 30mgs Valium and 1mg Ativan for one month, then 40mg Valium for a month before starting 10% cuts, and doing a slow detox, that he says may take 6 to 9 months, and will still probably cause some  minor withdrawl symptoms for 2 - 3 months after all the benzos are out of my body.

 

Option 2, which I strongly rejected.... was a chemical detox, which he explained was very harsh, usually leads to benzo withdrawl syndrome that could last a year, and is un-necessary unless someone really needed to get of benzos really quicky, as in, to pass a drug test for a job or a similar situation.

 

I have another option.....

 

My wife and I would be flown to the Coleman Institute in Virginia, where they use Flumazenil to detox you in 5 days, then keep you for 3 weeks, doing a sophisticated assessment of your long term withdrawl, and, as each individual is different, custom tailoring a withdrawl regimen that is going to be the most successful, and then following up for one year woth my Dr. here in KY.

 

Has anyone had any experience or known anyone who has any experience with the Coleman Institute or any Flumazenil withdrawl program ?

 

I bolded the option that IMO is the best.  I think you are extremely fortunate to have a doc that gets the benzo situation and understand how to get you off safely and slowly as to minimize severe disabling symptoms.  It took me over 5 months to find a doctor like yours...and i have to drive 1.5 hours from home to see him but he's worth his weight in gold.  So, if it was me, i'd keep on with your present doc and do the at home taper and keep things manageable.  There's no need to suffer horribly through this if your doc is willing to let you go at your own pace and you can do it at home.  You won't be symtpom free  at home but i sure beats being slammed by a detox place and pumped full of evil psych drugs.

 

i wish you well and hope that you make the best  decision for yourself and your family.

 

love, truck

 

 

I have to say, based on the research I have seen and the testimony of several people at the forum, that I agree with Ryan that any relief would merely be short term relief.  In theory, you would need to be hooked up to one of those machines nearly 24/7 or at least several times a day to get any true relief.  I doubt that this would be financially feasible for most people.

 

TC

Some doctors claim that if Flumazenil is administered consistently, it can help "reset" receptors and speed up the healing process.  Even if that works, one would have to spend a few days per week, for many weeks, hooked up to an IV in a doctor's office. 

I have read about the intravenous method.  This is different.  This study was done using small tiny doses taken orally (for the opiate study). MY Dr gave me a print out from the BMJ (British Medical Journal).  The question is whether using small tiny doses of Flumazenil would help restore receptors and not change the benzo bioavailability.  I will keep reading and see if there is any news on the suggested trial using Flumazenil.  I'm certainly not advocating..just interested in any trials or information seeking some remedy for this ordeal.

Mimi

Opiates and benzos are completely different.  It's amazing that your doctor would even discuss them in the same conversation.    Any amount of flumazenil will induce severe withdrawal symptoms in a benzo dependent person.

Dr did not say it he printed me out a study that referred to it.  Daily dose to be compounded in an almost homeopathic dilution.  I will drop it I was just asking...

Ryan..i agree with you..I have never heard about it in pill form either....perhaps it is something new....

 

 

Either way..I would think the chances of this being successful...based on what I have seen...are slim to none...but I understand when we are in wd...we will try anything...to feel better....

 

Some of these same doctors that promise all these magic bullet cures..are the same doctors that don't acknowledge how serious withdrawal is..or try to mask the withdrwal with numerous other drugs..that are also very difficult to come off of...it just ends up being a vicious circle..that is often hard to escape...

 

Part of the problem is..if a legitimate "magic bullet" came along to help benzo wd...we may all ignore it..because we have heard that line before....I guess the bottom line is...you don't know until you try it....I think people just become jaded...after being told so many things "help" and then are disappointed...

 

TC

Dr did not say it he printed me out a study that referred to it.  Daily dose to be compounded in an almost homeopathic dilution.  I will drop it I was just asking...

 

Hey, no need to drop it.  I am very interested in the subject and have researched it a lot.  It's just really dangerous for people who are still benzo-dependent.  It may very well be a good treatment for post-acute withdrawal and I strongly considered taking it for that.  I feel like I am too far along in my recovery now to complicate it with anything like Flumazenil.

 

If I sounded snippy, it wasn't at you.  I just want to pull my hair out when doctors treat benzo-dependent patients like opiate addicts.  That may not have been your doctor's intention, but it seems to be a very prevalent ignorance in the medical community and it drives me insane.  I'm also very wary of doctors who want to experiment on us.  I have sought the help of numerous doctors, tried all sorts of drug treatments, and dabbled in every nonsense homeopathic and herbal remedy from amino acids to acupuncture and I have come to the conclusion that nothing but abstinence and time will make anyone heal from this affliction.  If there was a cure out there, we'd all know about it and we'd all be out flying kites right now instead of posting on this message board. 

Part of the problem is..if a legitimate "magic bullet" came along to help benzo wd...we may all ignore it..because we have heard that line before....I guess the bottom line is...you don't know until you try it....I think people just become jaded...after being told so many things "help" and then are disappointed...

 

The science behind Flumazenil for protracted withdrawal is sound, but who can live their life hooked up to an IV?  There are other legitimate treatments out there like Imidazenil and Ganaxolone which might end up being a real solution, but they are not on the market yet.  I plan on being completely healed by the time these things are available to us.

 

I think with any treatment we just need to understand the science and if it makes sense, take it seriously.  Instead, we seem to want to try all these remedies which have nothing to do with the problem that is making us sick - cramming more amino acids into our brains when we are not deficient, pricking ourselves with needles, letting some charlatan hypnotize us - how in the hell do any of these things reset GABA receptors to normal sensitivity?  

Dr did not say it he printed me out a study that referred to it.  Daily dose to be compounded in an almost homeopathic dilution.  I will drop it I was just asking...

 

Hey, no need to drop it.  I am very interested in the subject and have researched it a lot.  It's just really dangerous for people who are still benzo-dependent.  It may very well be a good treatment for post-acute withdrawal and I strongly considered taking it for that.  I feel like I am too far along in my recovery now to complicate it with anything like Flumazenil.

 

If I sounded snippy, it wasn't at you.  I just want to pull my hair out when doctors treat benzo-dependent patients like opiate addicts.  That may not have been your doctor's intention, but it seems to be a very prevalent ignorance in the medical community and it drives me insane.  I'm also very wary of doctors who want to experiment on us.  I have sought the help of numerous doctors, tried all sorts of drug treatments, and dabbled in every nonsense homeopathic and herbal remedy from amino acids to acupuncture and I have come to the conclusion that nothing but abstinence and time will make anyone heal from this affliction.  If there was a cure out there, we'd all know about it and we'd all be out flying kites right now instead of posting on this message board. 

 

As always Ryan, I enjoyed your post! 

I did the Flumazenil detox in 2008 after 8 years of Valium and it was extremely rough. It was through a doctor/clinic in Texas and he was very nice but the whole experience was quite strange. I was on a cocktail of Doxepin and Tegretol throughout and for a few months after that. I think it was a small step up from c/t but I remember wishing I just did a slow taper. If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask. Hope this helps a little.

Hi all

I would never compromise my year long taper for anyone or anything...especially now that I am at my last mg of Valium!  I just like to read and research when I am in a no mans land of confusion and fear.  I used to feel the same way about childbirth. Always wanted kids but hated and feared the thought of childbirth. So I read and read and educated myself and I went all natural as I was concerned that by taking some pain relief epidural or otherwise-  I would end up with a C-section or worse.  Didn't feel good but by the time I had my third child I was a pro and had a pain free 2 hour delivery. 

 

In comparison I would have gone through all 3 births again instead of a year of tapering off this frickin Valium!

 

Well at least with the Valium I don't have the joy of raising teenagers!

 

Mimi

 

 

Mtmimi,

 

I think one thing we all missed....was to acknowledge your great progress in tapering the valium..  I just realized..you are really, really low in dosage...way to go...

 

TC

Thanks TC

It has been the hardest and most painful scary thing I have ever had to overcome.  I'm sure I will be a stronger wiser person in the end.  I keep telling myself that...

 

Never ever could have made it without the support here and of my family.

 

I am lucky in both of those cases...and I am thankful!!

 

mimi

I read a little bit about the studies on Flumazenil for opiate withdrawal.  I also read one where they gave oral Flumazenil to people while they were taking valium and they claim that it did not displace benzodiazepines or cause withdrawal.  Apparently, oral Flumazenil works very differently than IV Flumazenil.  I still would not try it myself based upon the stage of my recovery, but I would be very interested to hear about it if you decide to try it.  At a minimum, make certain that your doctor has an explanation as to the action of the drug that would relieve symptoms.

hi Ryan

I am WAYYY too chicken to try it... But it was encouraging to hear of some success that "may be" helpful one day....  I may try it if I get off and feel very ill months out....but not at this point. 

 

Thanks for checking in to it!

Mimi