Anybody here succeeded with water taper for K?

Current dose reducing from .5 so daily. Take 1/4 pill AM, 1/2 solid pill PM, and have been dissolving the other 1/4 pill in PM in 30ml water.... Have reduced 15ml/half from that so far. I let pill dissolve, shake thoroughly and then withdraw liquid, drink, rinse container and drink again. Is this really not okay? I'd hate to add alcohol to such a small liquid amount. I don't drink. I also hate milk. Please advise. Ive been nauseated since last October and want successful flow taper. I was so happy to be down 1/8 of current dose, but I'm saddened to learn water taper might not be consistent/not dissolving and evenly distributed even with agitation? I've seen YouTube videos on water titration that people claimed worked.

I am pretty sure that several people, including myself, have already answered this question for you. I don't anticipate you getting a different answer. You can Google it yourself. "Is clonazepam water soluble?" You will not find one result saying that it is. Thus, the answer is:

 

Absolutely does not, can not work. I am not saying that you can not get off the drug this way. But you can not get off the drug this way while being gentle on your central nervous system, because your dose is absolutely different every time. No matter how much you shake it. Try shaking a few hundred candy sprinkles into a bottle of water. Shake it up. Then use a syringe to reduce it by a set amount of liquid (without looking, since molecules of medication aren't visible), and count the sprinkles left in the bottle. Do this 10 times and you will have 10 different numbers, guaranteed.

 

The only reason you are feeling stable doing this is because you are still taking the majority of your dose in tablet form. The liquid part of your dose is unstable and random, and will become more and more so, the more you remove. It would be more consistent to just take that 1/4 pill and just use a nail file to shave a tiny bit more off of it every day.

I am pretty sure that several people, including myself, have already answered this question for you. I don't anticipate you getting a different answer. You can Google it yourself. "Is clonazepam water soluble?" You will not find one result saying that it is. Thus, the answer is:  Absolutely does not, can not work. 

 

:thumbsup:

 

Try shaking a few hundred candy sprinkles into a bottle of water. Shake it up. Then use a syringe to reduce it by a set amount of liquid (without looking, since molecules of medication aren't visible), and count the sprinkles left in the bottle. Do this 10 times and you will have 10 different numbers, guaranteed.

Great anology.  Wish I had thought of it. 

 

 

So if I use almond milk, (I can do this right?) how long do I let it sit? How much do I shake? I'm so sad right now bevUse I thought I had actually been reducing my dose by up to 1/8. I hope I've had some result. I can switch to almond milk to be more consistent, assuming it had enough fat content. Nervous for dry taper because even after I calibrate, it seems I get different results on scale. Forgive me, this is all so new. I want to do it right to control my nausea symptoms.

How much vodka (if I choose that route, would one need for 1/4 pill? When I reduce daytime dose eventually don't want alcohol showing up in my system when I'm only diluting with 30ml water.

How much vodka (if I choose that route, would one need for 1/4 pill? When I reduce daytime dose eventually don't want alcohol showing up in my system when I'm only diluting with 30ml water.

 

Check your PMs.

Heres an idea,what if you made a thick solution of water and non-dairy coffee creamer. I think you would have to start with hot water. They say that K binds to fat, and coffee creamer is oily.  Well, just an idea.  [i did my K taper with condensed milk. It would stay fresh in the fridge for more than two weeks- coffee creamer would probably last even longer!]

Heres an idea,what if you made a thick solution of water and non-dairy coffee creamer. I think you would have to start with hot water. They say that K binds to fat, and coffee creamer is oily.  Well, just an idea.  [i did my K taper with condensed milk. It would stay fresh in the fridge for more than two weeks- coffee creamer would probably last even longer!]

 

The logic behind using milk is that benzos are lipid (fat) soluble.  Unless the non-dairy creamer has a high fat content, it will not be suitable.  Your condensed milk works because it has a very high fat content.

  Oils are lipids too, duh....

coffee creamer is made of palm, coconut and soybean oils....

So if I use milk, or condensed milk, or coffee creamer, does the pill automatically disintegrate into the fatty liquid? So if I was reducing originally from 30 ml solution with 1/4 pill in it, I can dissolve a whole .5 pill into 120 ml fatty liquid (for the same ratios) and just mix it up/stir it a lot and somehow it will evenly dispense itself throughout the whole liquid? And then I just draw however many Mls I need.... (I was taking 15 out of 30 mls when I was reducing with water (my mistake). I'm so sorry I'm such an idiot with this, but need to get this right.

I feel so defeated right now because I thought I was reducing my dose okay. I'm still freaking so nauseous and holding for now until I get this right. I'm trying to work and not lose my job, and I feel like I'll never be off this crap successfully and get rid of the nausea. Please spell it out as much as you can. I feel so pathetic and really am relying on information..... Math is just not my forte,

I am pretty sure that several people, including myself, have already answered this question for you. I don't anticipate you getting a different answer. You can Google it yourself. "Is clonazepam water soluble?" You will not find one result saying that it is. Thus, the answer is:  Absolutely does not, can not work. 

 

:thumbsup:

 

Try shaking a few hundred candy sprinkles into a bottle of water. Shake it up. Then use a syringe to reduce it by a set amount of liquid (without looking, since molecules of medication aren't visible), and count the sprinkles left in the bottle. Do this 10 times and you will have 10 different numbers, guaranteed.

Great anology.  Wish I had thought of it. 

 

 

You both are amazing for the record.Such anchors on BB.

I am pretty sure that several people, including myself, have already answered this question for you. I don't anticipate you getting a different answer. You can Google it yourself. "Is clonazepam water soluble?" You will not find one result saying that it is. Thus, the answer is:  Absolutely does not, can not work. 

 

:thumbsup:

 

Try shaking a few hundred candy sprinkles into a bottle of water. Shake it up. Then use a syringe to reduce it by a set amount of liquid (without looking, since molecules of medication aren't visible), and count the sprinkles left in the bottle. Do this 10 times and you will have 10 different numbers, guaranteed.

Great anology.  Wish I had thought of it. 

 

 

 

Feel free to use it and pretend you did think of it! God knows you have patiently explained this to enough people...

 

And thanks, onemoretry!

I feel so defeated right now because I thought I was reducing my dose okay. I'm still freaking so nauseous and holding for now until I get this right. I'm trying to work and not lose my job, and I feel like I'll never be off this crap successfully and get rid of the nausea. Please spell it out as much as you can. I feel so pathetic and really am relying on information..... Math is just not my forte,

 

Please don't feel defeated, Fighter! We are happy to help, and you ARE making progress, by learning from your mistakes. That's what life is all about, right?

 

My opinion on liquid is just use the vodka. If you read scientific papers testing the solubility of these drugs (which I am nerdy enough to have done), you won't find anyone running tests using coffee creamer. Yes, it is probably somewhat soluble in coffee creamer, definitely more so than in water. But it is MOST soluble in ethanol, so why reinvent the wheel??!?!

 

You are not allergic to alcohol, so I can not see a reason why this is not an option for you. Your dose is low enough that the amount of alcohol you ingest daily will be tiny! Like, a few drops tiny! If you accidentally swallowed a little of your mouthwash you would get more.

 

I am guessing that Builder already gave you a "recipe" for a vodka solution with your pills. If you need further clarification, just ask.

Thank you for your words of encouragement, but I'm beginning to lose my will. I have 3 beautiful kids I need to fight for. I hope I'm not annoying everyone on here with my stupidity. Builder was great at trying to explain to me in simple terms on how to liquify my entire daily dosage and make a big batch, but I only want to continue reducing off the 1/4 pill piece I take at night.  (I take 1/2 +1:4 at night, 1/4 in AM) He gave me the solution to reduce off my whole daily dose, .5mg, but I'm too nervous to mix that much medication at once due to children and pets at home and messing up on it and running short of pills. I messaged him again and am waiting to hear back if I can mix up one .5 pill with 1ml vodka into 120ml water (which will give me the same ratio I was working with before which was /4 pill dissolved into 30ml of water (I had reduced up to 15ml so far). Then I can use this batch to take 15 ml for while to stabilize, then 14.5, etc until that I reduce down to zero, meaning I can eliminate that 1/4 pill from my daily dose. Does this sound correct? I feel

Like such an idiot you guys. I also feel so ashamed, like I'm on Breaking Bad or something, mixing this up with my kids around. I hate my life right now.

Oh my gosh! You're breaking (bad) my heart, Fighter!

 

I mean, come on, your name is Fighter! You can't lose your will. And for goodness's sake, don't feel shame! You are doing something wonderful for your whole family by working toward being off this medication. You are being brave and being careful. These are things to be proud of! And you are not an idiot! This is new to you. I am sure there are lots of things that you could help me with in life, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses and everyone can learn! Heck, you might be helping other people figure this stuff out in a few months' time!

 

As far as the plan you are asking for, the difficulty is that if you put 1 ml in a jar with 1 pill, there literally is not enough liquid to make a liquid. It will just make a damp pill. Haha. So, you do need to make a bigger batch, but you can still just take your nighttime dose from there, and use tablets for the rest. Does that make sense? Also, making a bigger batch means you only have to "break bad" every once in a while, instead of every 4 days.

You could also just do overkill with the vodka, to dissolve it. Like, you could do 2 0.50 pills, and even though you only need 2 ml of vodka for this, you could use 10. This is still just a dribble of alcohol, but would be enough to thoroughly wet and disintegrate and dissolve the pills before you add the water. It would change the amount of water you would add, though, to get that 0.1mg/ml mixture, so you would need to adjust the math accordingly.

 

On the other hand, if you decide it is too "breaking bad" for you, you can always just taper directly from the tablets, which is what I am doing. You have to buy a milligram scale, which is a little bit "breaking bad" too, but you wouldn't have to deal with the liquid.

Thank you so much wavesonthe shore. Your kindness brought me to tears. I really needed some encouragement today. My job is on the line because I'm so sick, I feel awful, and then I gpumd out my taper was wrong. That was the one thing I was proud of. I'm so scared of getting more sickly.  This whole stupid medication dependence that I never had any idea would happen to me has broken me. I have never been this sick and for this long in my life. I made my weird solution up for the next couple of days. I used two .5 pills, 2ml vodka, and added 238 ml water which matched my previous weird taoerbof 1:4 pill to every 30ml solution. I will begin by taking 15ml (1/8 tablet equivalent, which is what I had worked for in my botched taper) nightly until I feel more stable and then can reduce down to 14 ml, etc. until I get to 0ml and the 1/4 tablet is eliminated from my PM dose. At least with this method I won't be discarding solution as like I'm some water taper plans and wasting pills. I feel like I'm at the bottom Mount Everest with such an impossible climb to make. I pray the 15 ml I take tonight from the liquid solution is close to whatever inconsistent dose I thought I was taking when I was just using water so I don't get worse side effects. Wish me luck. 

You got this, but good luck, anyway. If you have symptoms, you'll get through them. And once you are doing the microtaper, things will get more stable, you'll see.

Current dose reducing from .5 so daily. Take 1/4 pill AM, 1/2 solid pill PM, and have been dissolving the other 1/4 pill in PM in 30ml water.... Have reduced 15ml/half from that so far. I let pill dissolve, shake thoroughly and then withdraw liquid, drink, rinse container and drink again. Is this really not okay? I'd hate to add alcohol to such a small liquid amount. I don't drink. I also hate milk. Please advise. Ive been nauseated since last October and want successful flow taper. I was so happy to be down 1/8 of current dose, but I'm saddened to learn water taper might not be consistent/not dissolving and evenly distributed even with agitation? I've seen YouTube videos on water titration that people claimed worked.

 

Hello Fighterk,

 

The water solubility of clonazepam is a bit higher than that of lorazepam, namely 100 mg/liter for clonazepam and 80 mg/liter for lorazepam.

The water temperature should be 25 degrees Celcius for these values.

 

These are the Merck indexes:

https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB01068

 

That means that 10 ml of water should be enough to dissolve1 mg of clonazepam. (I do not advise this minimal amount)

 

I am using a pure water titration for lorazepam myself without problems so I would expect that it also works for clonazepam because its solubility is a bit higher.

 

Here I describe the method I use:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=216748.msg2785487#msg2785487

 

 

 

 

 

The water solubility of clonazepam is a bit higher than that of l namely 100 mg/liter for clonazepam and 80 mg/liter for lorazepam.

The water temperature should be 25 degrees Celcius for these values.

 

These are the Merck indexes:

https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB01068

 

That means that 10 ml of water should be enough to dissolve1 mg of clonazepam. (I do not advise this minimal amount)

 

I am using a pure water titration for lorazepam myself without problems so I would expect that it also works for clonazepam because its solubility is a bit higher.

 

Here I describe the method I use:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=216748.msg2785487#msg2785487

 

John-

 

That number is an outlier, and  inconsistent with virtually all other published data.  In fact, if you look down to the next line of that document you will see  "0.0106 mg/mL"

 

(Here is the  referenced source for that number.)

 

http://www.vcclab.org/lab/alogps/

 

I really suspect that the "100mg/L" is a typo or transpositional error.  Coincidentally, if that were revised to 10mg/L, it would be consistent with that other number (and virtually all other published data)

 

And I could easily give you many more references that will say, ...poorly soluble, ...insoluble, ...sparingly soluble.

 

If you want to research further,  Abolghasam Jouyban, PhD, is has done extensive and widely published research on pharma solubility, including most common benzos.

 

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/je900330p

 

 

Hi, I am using the water titration method to withdraw from Clonazepam. I take it three times a day. Is it possible to mix up batches for a few days in advance? Thanks!

The easiest way to do a daily taper is to prepare your liquid in batches.  10-14 days is usually a good quantity.

 

 

But K is NOT water-soluble (or at best, very poorly water-soluble).  It must first be dissolved in a suitable solvent (vodka or PG), then it can be diluted with water.

 

 

John-

 

That number is an outlier, and  inconsistent with virtually all other published data.  In fact, if you look down to the next line of that document you will see  "0.0106 mg/mL"

 

(Here is the  referenced source for that number.)

 

http://www.vcclab.org/lab/alogps/

 

I really suspect that the "100mg/L" is a typo or transpositional error.  Coincidentally, if that were revised to 10mg/L, it would be consistent with that other number (and virtually all other published data)

 

And I could easily give you many more references that will say, ...poorly soluble, ...insoluble, ...sparingly soluble.

 

If you want to research further,  Abolghasam Jouyban, PhD, is has done extensive and widely published research on pharma solubility, including most common benzos.

 

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/je900330p

 

Hi Builder,

 

I appreciate the work you are doing for benzobuddies and you have also helped me, but I think I disagree with you at this particular point.

 

I looked for data for lorazepam, clonazepam, diazepam and oxazepam.

 

For lorazepam the experimental solubility (Merck index) is 80 mg/liter at 25  °C

For clonazepam  the experimental solubility (Merck index) is 100 mg/liter at 25  °C

For diazepam the experimental solubility is 50 mg/liter at  25  °C

For oxazepam  the experimental solubility is 179 mg/liter at  25  °C

 

These values are comparable.

 

The predicted solubilities are respectively: 17.6 mg/liter, 10.6 mg/liter, 12.2 mg/liter and 88.1 mg/liter

 

It seems to me that the values which are of importance are the experimental data and not the predicted data.

 

Descriptions like poorly soluble, ...insoluble, ...sparingly soluble are too vague. I do not see why a solubility of 10 mg/liter would be in accordance with these descriptions, and 100 mg/liter would not be.

 

These are my sources:

https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB00186

https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB01068

https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB00829

https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB00842

 

For the case of lorazepam Jim Hawk came with another source with the same value, and made some useful remarks:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=210792.msg2718406#msg2718406

 

In the following article the author describes in detail how he dissolves 2 mg of clonazepam in 50 ml distilled water at  37 °C and obtains a concentration of 40 mg/liter.

 

See page 52.

 

http://dspace.ewubd.edu/bitstream/handle/123456789/2386/Mahbubur_Rahman_Bhuiyan.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

 

This would be in accordance with the data given earlier.