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Baclofen for benzo withdrawal, specifically clonazepam


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Partly by searching, partly accidental finding:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4271384/

 

'There are multiple mechanisms which might explain baclofen's efficacy for BZD dependence.

 

    Pre-synaptic GABA-B heteroceptor activation is shown to decrease excitatory neurotransmitter release. This may explain its efficacy in decreasing withdrawal symptoms[8]

    GABA-B receptors are located pre-synaptically on dopamine (DA) neurons in ventral-tegmental area (VTA) and post-synaptically on glutamate synapses. Activation of these receptors decreases DA discharge at multiple sites like nucleus accumbens and amygdala. This may explain decreased drug-seeking, reinforcing effects and reinstatement effects[6]

    Another mechanism of action involves GABA-B agonist, which blocks alcohol-induced potentiation of GABAA transmission, and therefore may regulate behavioral sensitivity to ethanol and BZDs.[10]'

 

You need to know something about clonazepam to understand this.

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  • 3 weeks later...

hi liberty -

 

would be very interested + grateful to hear what are your thoughts are RE  Baclofen + CLZ ? 

 

+ esp. your comment Re 'understanding CLZ' ?

 

 

was c/t off Baclofen by GP 2 yrs ago.... horrific experience -- left me with twisted pelvis + entire R leg -- tibia, knee, ankle, foot.

 

GP then briefly tried Ativan, Zopiclone [paradoxical].

 

then finally CLZpam -- GP didn't like Ativan.... tho issues w/ hip, muscles, etc, didn't seem worsened by Ativan for those few weeks.

 

but first dose of CLZ seem to cause instant joint + muscle pain --- but i persevered as had no choice at the time.

 

did lots of physio, etc -- but still didn't seem to fix it.

 

now feel that CLZ has severely worsened Bac damage + basically deformed my R leg.

 

reached tolerance to C in 20+ months; anxiety, nerve pain in foot, increasing muscle tension in hip/legs.

 

since July, new GP put me thru ringer w/tons of changes to dose, drug, etc -- further destabilizing, so debilitated by all the w/d.

 

sorry my Sig is not clear, but tried to explain HX in 2 posts [links].

 

by Oct -- ended up adding back some V to reduce CLZ tension, twice. but now in a mess -- C+V tolerance, i/d w/d, + maybe potentiation.

 

now on more than double original dose of CLZ [incl. V].

 

now basically disabled. and stuck.

 

as much damage as Bac did to me -- and recoil at the thought of it -- now often wonder if it might've been a better choice than adding in V....? 

 

would love to hear your thoughts?

 

peace + healing to you

 

 

 

 

 

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chipmunk,

 

That's complicated. I think baclofen acts on certain areas of the CNS (spinal cord, others) where clonazepam also acts with strong affinity.

 

Other aspects would be 'neural pathways'. Complicated, sc101 has a thread about it. It's probably more complicated. Clonezepam is a complicated drug. Sorry, there is a lot I don't know.

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Oops, thanks anyway liberty

 

sorry, for my long post hx + queries -- and for any confusion.

 

when you said 'You need to know something about clonazepam to understand this.' -->  i thought maybe you did know /understand the link btwn the 2 drugs -- so was hoping you could offer some insight.

 

none of the cases in the study involve CLZpam, so just got a bit confused....

 

but no worries, it IS complicated for sure.... and i do believe there is some awful spinal cord thing going on -- from using both drugs -- and disabling by legs.

 

i'm just desperate for help.

 

thanks for mentioning the thread.

 

cheers

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Partly by searching, partly accidental finding:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4271384/

 

'There are multiple mechanisms which might explain baclofen's efficacy for BZD dependence.

 

    Pre-synaptic GABA-B heteroceptor activation is shown to decrease excitatory neurotransmitter release. This may explain its efficacy in decreasing withdrawal symptoms[8]

    GABA-B receptors are located pre-synaptically on dopamine (DA) neurons in ventral-tegmental area (VTA) and post-synaptically on glutamate synapses. Activation of these receptors decreases DA discharge at multiple sites like nucleus accumbens and amygdala. This may explain decreased drug-seeking, reinforcing effects and reinstatement effects[6]

    Another mechanism of action involves GABA-B agonist, which blocks alcohol-induced potentiation of GABAA transmission, and therefore may regulate behavioral sensitivity to ethanol and BZDs.[10]'

 

You need to know something about clonazepam to understand this.

 

Liberty

 

I think the baclofen’s effect on the GABAbR and its coupling to the K+ efflux channels are one of its key therapeutic benefits for benzdiazaphine dependence.  Anything to hyperpolarize the membrane potential would help in detox.  Also baclofen’s effect on presynatpic Ca2 influx as well.  As you know GABAbRs also affect calcium channels through a different G-protein mechanism.

 

The DA part is interesting and relates to the issue of onset of action.  Fast acting Benzodiazaphines will induce a short term spike in DA.  The baclofen would help with reducing this DA discharge as noted above which would help with the “drug seeking” aspect of fast onset Benzodiazaphines.  I don’t think any of us are drug seekers, but this might be related to  that paradoxical stimulation effect of clonazepam and other fast and intermediate onset Benzodiazaphines.

 

As noted above , baclofen has its own set of issues with dependency and tolerance.

 

 

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I was prescribed robed Baclofen for dystonia I developed in WD.

 

It was absolute hell.

 

I then had to taper off of it.

 

Of course everyone is different.

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I was prescribed robed Baclofen for dystonia I developed in WD.

 

It was absolute hell.

 

I then had to taper off of it.

 

Of course everyone is different.

 

I’ve heard very similar stories as well.  I’m sorry you had to go through that.

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cs123

 

 

just wondering if you could maybe please advise any further on my queries / 2 posts in this thread?

 

i'd be v grateful for any insight you might have.

 

i understand your post to say that Baclofen 'helps' to w/d from benzos, like CLZ ?

 

but in my case -- my Baclofen c/t -- by GP -- caused permanent damage, ie, rotated hip -- from muscle spasms + seizures.

 

+ then i was put on CLZ -- which seems to have worsened it, or 'locked' this joint rotation.

 

and i've been stuck w/ this disability, for 2+ yrs now.

 

trying to taper CLZ -- i've had tons more spasms in both hips / quads, glutes, hamstrings -- total atrophy -- esp. both hips + entire R leg.

 

now feel that CLZ has severely worsened Bac damage + basically deformed my R leg.

 

+ now, any anxiety, even subconsciously = rotated hip muscles goes into spasm.

 

do both Bac + CLZ affect the spinal cord in the same way ?

 

or some other pathway ?

 

am i doomed ?  :(

 

many thanks for any insight, advice.  :angel:

 

 

PS: Ajusta -- sorry you went thru hell w Baclofen too.  but thankfully, you tapered. 

 

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cs123

 

 

just wondering if you could maybe please advise any further on my queries / 2 posts in this thread?

 

i'd be v grateful for any insight you might have.

 

i understand your post to say that Baclofen 'helps' to w/d from benzos, like CLZ ?

 

but in my case -- my Baclofen c/t -- by GP -- caused permanent damage, ie, rotated hip -- from muscle spasms + seizures.

 

+ then i was put on CLZ -- which seems to have worsened it, or 'locked' this joint rotation.

 

and i've been stuck w/ this disability, for 2+ yrs now.

 

trying to taper CLZ -- i've had tons more spasms in both hips / quads, glutes, hamstrings -- total atrophy -- esp. both hips + entire R leg.

 

now feel that CLZ has severely worsened Bac damage + basically deformed my R leg.

 

+ now, any anxiety, even subconsciously = rotated hip muscles goes into spasm.

 

do both Bac + CLZ affect the spinal cord in the same way ?

 

or some other pathway ?

 

am i doomed ?  :(

 

many thanks for any insight, advice.  :angel:

 

 

PS: Ajusta -- sorry you went thru hell w Baclofen too.  but thankfully, you tapered.

 

Hi chipmunk

 

I don’t know much about baclofen, especially relative to the spinal cord and upper and lower motor neurons.  That’s the area we could research if we wanted to find out if they act similarly.

 

In the literature, baclofen,  diazepam and clonazepam are used therapeutically  for upper motor neuron and lower motor neuron issues, so they have very similar therapeutic properties in this respect. They both hyperpolarize those neurons but via different receptors.

 

I experienced horrendous muscle tightness early on in the Benzodiazaphine taper, but it was not persistent.

 

 

 

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Hi cs123, thank you so much

 

Sorry you also had awful muscle issues, but very glad not persistent. Can't see your Sig -- but which benzo caused this?

 

My gosh you are very knowledgeable about these drugs -- so thankful for your reply.

 

All I can grasp is that Baclofen affects Gaba B receptors, and that CLZ may also affect Gaba B, in some / same, way?

 

Would very much appreciate any further info, advice, etc, you may be able to suggest?  RE Baclofen + CLZ? 

 

 

Also, you raise this 3rd significant issue Re my disability --

 

RE Valium + CLZ  [+ Baclofen?] :

 

"They both [or all 3?]  hyperpolarize those neurons but via different receptors."

 

This concerns me too -- because currently on an 'odd dose' of Valium + CLZ, ie, not Ashton taper [anymore].  It's not 'Ashton' proportions either, ie, probably not enough V to counter the C.

 

Since Oct - began adding in some V to try to reduce CLZ tension that was caused by updosing it -- big mistake -- should have just started tapering the CLZ, and left V alone.

 

That said, now feel both C+V tolerance + I/D w/d + maybe potentiation somehow?

 

Tho you say it's "different receptors" that C + V affect -- so wonder if they are still competing due to their "very similar therapeutic properties"

 

And that is why I feel so much tension now, literally stuck -- and afraid to taper either V or C -- fearing increased tension either way. Hence more disability.

 

 

Also, still trying to 'stabilize' after GP pushed Lyrica on me -- which severely worsened my worst SXS, ie, leg tension, joint swelling, weakness.

 

Stopped after 4 days of 25 mg, but 3 wks later, these increased SXS persist. A real mess, these 4 drugs have caused.

 

Sorry for many queries. Just desperate and seeking any helpful info, to taper correctly now after so many mistakes.

 

Again, thanks very much, and would be so grateful for any further insight or advice you may have  :angel:

 

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Hi Shania

 

sorry you went thru it too -- i was forced to C/T it.

 

would be interested to hear your experience, if you'd be willing to share ?

 

and if you have any info Re Baclofen + ClZ -- as per this thread -- would be very helpful to hear your thoughts ?

 

kind regards

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  • 2 weeks later...

cs123

 

 

just wondering if you could maybe please advise any further on my queries / 2 posts in this thread?

 

i'd be v grateful for any insight you might have.

 

i understand your post to say that Baclofen 'helps' to w/d from benzos, like CLZ ?

 

but in my case -- my Baclofen c/t -- by GP -- caused permanent damage, ie, rotated hip -- from muscle spasms + seizures.

 

+ then i was put on CLZ -- which seems to have worsened it, or 'locked' this joint rotation.

 

and i've been stuck w/ this disability, for 2+ yrs now.

 

trying to taper CLZ -- i've had tons more spasms in both hips / quads, glutes, hamstrings -- total atrophy -- esp. both hips + entire R leg.

 

now feel that CLZ has severely worsened Bac damage + basically deformed my R leg.

 

+ now, any anxiety, even subconsciously = rotated hip muscles goes into spasm.

 

do both Bac + CLZ affect the spinal cord in the same way ?

 

or some other pathway ?

 

am i doomed ?  :(

 

many thanks for any insight, advice.  :angel:

 

 

PS: Ajusta -- sorry you went thru hell w Baclofen too.  but thankfully, you tapered.

 

Hi chipmunk

 

The drug that caused me issues was lorazepam.  I’m wrapping up a taper on librium.  I never mixed the two.  My crossover to librium  was done over one day (all at once) and medically supervised. 

 

They (neuroscientists) know that there is crosstalk between the different Benzodiazaphines but the literature is very sparse and inconclusive.

 

 

>>>>>do both Bac + CLZ affect the spinal cord in the same way ?

 

Unfortunately, I am not an expert on baclofen and know very little about it.  Determining exactly how they interact is something that I don’t know.

 

Cs123

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  • 6 months later...

Dear All,

 

I searched "baclofen," on benzobuddies and I found this thread and some pretty savvy replies.  I am trying to taper valium one last time after getting off for 3 1/2 years and then reinstating in desperation 3/12 years ago, and am wondering about experiences with baclofen.

 

I know it is a GABA-B agonist, as opposed to benzos GABA-A, but I am much more concerned with its downstream effects of glutamate receptors, mostly ionotropic NMDA.  Most of our issues are the over reception of glutamate, and I am trying to get clean of diazepam without doing more damage by further upregulating or increasing the potential (LTP) of ionotropic glutamate receptors like NMDA.

 

I am usually pretty savvy to all of this, but I am in a bit of a wave and trying to prepare notes for my neurologist, so if any of my fellow self-taught neurologists have an article or two, or better still if any of you had any personal success or failure with baclofen near the end of or after a taper please share.

 

Thanks,

 

ramcon1

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