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Anyone with severe sleep problem pre-benzo and CRD, too? Anyone like me??


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Am wondering if anyone else had severe insomnia/crd problem such that they had to leave work, their world got smaller, they are virtually alone now, in their 60's.  making apptments of any sort uch a problem have teeny world...  then struck with withdrawal when mirtazapine was added (CT that 2 years ago).

 

On about 3 mg valium, 10 ambien and don't sleep much at all or function much.  Yesterday had horrendous panic attack -- can't live like this.    Meanwhile life goes by--  am old!  Nobody to check in on me or help and frankly don't know what to do.

 

Cannot take ADs, antihistamines, melatonin, l theanine, and most everything else others take.  Tried a bit of mj but no real success yet.

 

Anyone like me out there?

Feel isolated and alone.

 

 

 

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Hi BarbaraAve

 

Sorry you are having a rough time.  I know when I had my worst sleeping problems I got very introverted and secluded myself away from my friends and loved ones.  I just felt so lousy and had so much anxiety with all the withdrawals I went through constantly.  I don't know of anything that is a cure all but for me I just forced myself to do things.  I did some jogging, went to the gym, and just overall forced myself to get out even if I did not feel well.  It is true life is short and it will keep passing you by.  You will have to take control of it to some point and try to get yourself included back in the mix.  You might never feel 100% or "better" but you will be surprised how you will start to enjoy things more and more.  Sleep may or may not get better over time but we can function without much of it.... I know from experience....

 

I do wish u better and try to do a few things for yourself from time to time.  You deserve it and deserve to be happy.

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Am wondering if anyone else had severe insomnia/crd problem such that they had to leave work, their world got smaller, they are virtually alone now, in their 60's.  making apptments of any sort uch a problem have teeny world...  then struck with withdrawal when mirtazapine was added (CT that 2 years ago).

 

On about 3 mg valium, 10 ambien and don't sleep much at all or function much.  Yesterday had horrendous panic attack -- can't live like this.    Meanwhile life goes by--  am old!  Nobody to check in on me or help and frankly don't know what to do.

 

Cannot take ADs, antihistamines, melatonin, l theanine, and most everything else others take.  Tried a bit of mj but no real success yet.

 

Anyone like me out there?

Feel isolated and alone.

 

Sorry you are and have been suffering so long.  I see that you are still on Valium and Ambien.  I don't want to be mean or come across as being harsh, because I have not experienced what you did.  However, if 3mg of V and 10mg of Ambien are not helping, why not taper off?  Insomnia is not caused from lack of Valium and Ambien in your body.

 

The longer you stay on V and Ambien, the more problems they are going to create.  The panic attacks and some of your insomnia are most likely due to reaching tolerance with the V and Ambien?  Benzos and Z-drugs are band aids meant for short-term (2-4) week maximum use.  I know, it's easy for me to say that, but it's true.  Drugs are a dead end road as they all stop working. 

 

There has to be an underlying cause for your insomnia?  If possible, find a functional doctor that can run tests to find out if you have deficiencies, imbalances, hormonal issues, etc. 

 

There are no magic bullets or other pills you can take as they will most likely all stop working at some point.

 

Good luck, I wish you better days ahead.

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BarbaraAve,

I speak from experience when I tell you that Ambien can really cause severe interdose withdrawal symptoms such as anxiety attacks when it has been taken for too long and tolerance to the drug begins to set in. Since this affliction will not go away on its own, you pretty much have to begin the process of getting off Ambien if you ever want to feel good again. I don't know if you have already started a taper, but if not, I would suggest starting soon. Ambien is much more unstable than Valium since it has a much shorter half-life in the blood stream so it would be a good idea to dump that drug first. Things might be a little rough for awhile, but most likely they will be even harder and for a longer period of time if you don't clean yourself out.

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Thx murph.

So you sleeping pretty well with ambien and seroquel?  You are of the rest?

 

Hi!  Right now I still am taking approximately 5mg Ambien and 25mg Seroquel.  Sleep has been overall better for me.  Last night I got approximately 7 hours straight and then another hour of light REM sleep before I got out of bed at 730am to get ready for work.  I typically get 7 hours of good sleep a night now and some nights more or less. 

 

Other things I have done to try and help my sleep is have a good sleep pattern.  I typically go to bed with lights out @ 11pm every night (Friday and Saturday nights maybe later if I go out)  I also have made sure to keep the room real dark, this really does help!  I also keep my bedroom cool and I have a fan on for white noise.  I also changed up my pillow and sheets to something really comfortable, so even if I am having a hard time sleeping my bed is so comfy it does not bother me one bit.

 

I don't know if my sleep will ever be 100% "normal" again but at that same time maybe this is my new normal now that I am getting older (40).

 

I had some really rough times when things were bad but right now I would say I am almost healed besides still taking some sleep meds. I feel great and do everything I did before all these issues started.

 

Really hope you can find a way to get back into society more.  It is not fun being alone.  A great thing too that you might like is an app / website called "Meetup.com" really helpful in allowing people to connect with others close around whom may enjoy the same activities or just want to hang out and read books or grab coffee.  My mom is 72, retired and single I am getting her into this myself as she needs to get out more.  She has had sleeping issues her whole life as well so who knows maybe some of mine is genetic as well.

 

Keep us posted on how you feel.  :thumbsup:

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Hi Murph,

 

Glad to learn you are still doing well on 5mg of Ambien and 25mg of Seroquel and that your sleep is good.  Hopefully you won't have to pay the withdrawal beast someday as it demands payment without mercy!

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Hi Murph,

 

Glad to learn you are still doing well on 5mg of Ambien and 25mg of Seroquel and that your sleep is good.  Hopefully you won't have to pay the withdrawal beast someday as it demands payment without mercy!

 

Hey!  thanks for the response,

 

I know that you as well as many others on this board try to help people out with your stories/suggestiong and your own past experiences and struggles but to be honest a lot of the times the way you and others say things are based on fear "Hopefully you won't have to pay the withdrawal beast someday as it demands payment without mercy!".  You are basically suggesting that I will have to deal with pain and insomnia again because I still take low doses.  Who knows maybe I will maybe I won't.  I am not worried about the future as all I can control is my here and now. 

 

I know what you are trying to say and I understand being 100% drug free is best but for some of us we can be fine with small doses and those small doses help.  No need to suggest that I am going to experience withdrawal off of the doses I am taking currently.

 

Please remember, everyone is different and everyone does things differently in life especially how they deal with hardship and health issues including myself and the original poster.  Just because you figured out what worked for you does not mean that is the same for each of us.  Just making you aware that not everyone that ask a question on the board is looking for a lecture on why these drugs are bad for them.  Most are simply looking for reassurance that they are not alone in this struggle.     

 

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I apologize for the lecture... but my two sentence response wasn't predicated on inducing "fear" or trying to suggest you will go through withdrawal.  I was/am sincerely hoping you won't have to go through withdrawal as lots of people take Benzos and Z class drugs and get off of them without any issues or withdrawal!  I wouldn't wish withdrawal on my worst enemy. I did a cold turkey under the advice of a doctor (not recommended).  I really didn't figure out what worked for me as I just quit so I am not trying to push that on other people and I really don't lecture people on why these drugs are bad for them.  Most people on this forum already know that.  I try to give people hope that they will heal and get their life back after they are off of all drugs.

 

However,  I respectfully disagree that there is such a thing as a low dose.

 

AM I OR WAS I ON A “LOW DOSE”?

 

The pharmaceutical industry has a long history of romanticizing language. When the word ‘withdrawal’ was thought to evoke negative feelings in relation to psychiatric drugs, the term ‘discontinuation syndrome’ was euphemistically substituted to lower any apprehensions in patients about taking them.

 

When Valium got a bad rap under the label ‘tranquilizer,’ the term ‘anxiolytics’ was introduced to describe a newer crop of benzodiazepine tranquilizers—Xanax, Ativan, Klonopin, etc—that were more potent but carried smaller dosage labels, deceiving patients into thinking that they were taking a minimal amount when they were actually taking a dose as much as 20 times more potent than an equivalent dose of Valium (1mg of clonazepam [Klonopin] for example, is equivalent to approximately 20mg of diazepam [Valium]).

 

Not long after Valium’s “bad rap,” the pharmaceutical industry coined the term ‘anxiolytics,’ most likely to distance their new benzodiazepine drugs (Xanax, Ativan, etc.) from the term ‘tranquilizer’ that was associated with Valium. These new benzodiazepines were also promoted and marketed as “non-addicting benzodiazepines”.

 

Perhaps as an extension of this deceptive marketing—or just because of basic miseducation, misinformation and/or misunderstanding—patients were, and still are, also often reassured (or falsely think on their own) that they are on a “small dose” or a “low dose”. This serves to provide the patient taking the benzodiazepine a false sense of security that taking the benzodiazepine regularly and/or long-term is somehow “safer” because the dose is “small” or “low”. The deceptive marketing has been effective. Unfortunately, this is just more propagation of misinformation and is simply not true.

 

Why is this misinformation occurring? One reason might be that doctors and drug companies have been slow to recognize or differentiate the differences between the many benzodiazepines, both in rates of elimination and in relative potency:

 

Rates of elimination:

 

There is considerable individual variation in how people react to benzodiazepines. There are also vulnerable populations (e.g., the elderly) who have reduced metabolism of the benzodiazepines, making them especially susceptible to the sedative effects of the drugs (causing falls and fractures, mental confusion, cognitive impairment, etc.). In addition, there are subtle differences in the pharmacological profiles of the different benzodiazepines, and the equivalences do not always “work” at higher doses (e.g., in clinical experience, diazepam is rather more sedative than lorazepam which is more anxiolytic) when switching between the drugs. People also have variations in the speed at which they metabolize drugs (e.g., fast-metabolizers, slow-metabolizers), but on the whole the equivalences apply generally—except possibly in the case of benzodiazepines which have active metabolites such as diazepam where the half-lives of these can vary from 36–200 hours.

 

Relative potency:

 

Xanax 0.5 mg is the equivalent of 10mg Valium

Klonopin 1mg is the equivalent of 20mg of Valium

Ativan 1mg is the equivalent of 10mg of Valium

Despite their “low” dosages, these drugs are all deceivingly POTENT!

 

The three most potent benzodiazepines (or ‘anxiolytics’) are alprazolam (Xanax), clonazepam (Klonopin) and lorazepam (Ativan) which are 10–20 times (lorazepam is 10x more potent; clonazepam and alprazolam are 20x more potent) more potent than diazepam. This difference is often disregarded and the drugs prescribed in excessive dosage because the prescriber is unaware of the equivalent dosages of the benzodiazepines.

 

So while, say, 0.5mg of Xanax (alprazolam) sounds like a “small dose” or “low dose,” compared to someone taking 10mg of Valium (diazepam), it is not; they are, in fact, equivalent. Someone taking 4mg of clonazepam (Klonopin), which is the maximum recommended dosage for panic disorder, may have no idea that they are being prescribed the equivalent of 80mg of Valium! Four certainly sounds “small” compared to eighty; in reality, they are essentially the same thing (or equivalent). And while, for some, 0.5mg of Xanax (alprazolam) might be efficiently metabolized without notable effects, for others it may not be, causing adverse effects.

 

Anecdotally, within the benzodiazepine and Z-drug withdrawal support communities, there are numerous reports of individuals taking a so-called prescribed “small dose” or “low dose” (comparatively to other individuals’ larger equivalent doses) who become not only physiologically dependent to those doses (typically when taking them for longer than 2-4 weeks) but who also report withdrawal symptoms and syndromes that are just as severe, distressing and long-lasting as the individuals taking prescribed larger-dose equivalents.

 

Taking all of this information we know into consideration, the only logical evidence-based conclusion one can arrive at is that there is no such thing as a “small dose” or “low dose” of benzodiazepine. More research into these drugs is desperately needed to make further conclusions.

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Uh, think we are getting off the subject.

 

I was told by dr to taper off valium THEN ambien.

but he did not say how would get off the ambien.

 

Wonder if this approach makes any sense.

 

It was once uggested i get on librium at higher level to be functional then taer off that.

 

??

 

still looking for my sleep buddy... hehe

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Uh, think we are getting off the subject.

 

I was told by dr to taper off valium THEN ambien.

but he did not say how would get off the ambien.

 

Wonder if this approach makes any sense.

 

It was once uggested i get on librium at higher level to be functional then taer off that.

 

??

 

still looking for my sleep buddy... hehe

 

Your doctor's advice seems contrary to what most experienced folks on this site would recommend. It is apparent that he or she has little experience with Ambien when it goes bad. Good luck.

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Aloha,

 

you got off ambien in 10 days?

 

Also, interdose withdrawal... since it has short half life, when were you feeling the withdrawal?

 

And I assume lunesta no better than ambien..

 

Thanks.

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Yes, I got off Ambien in 10 days. Getting off was very easy, because I was already so messed up that I did not notice anything getting worse. I did get hit pretty hard with insomnia that still bothers me from time to time, but I would not be surprised if that would have happen anyway had I done a slow taper since so much damage had already been done at that point. The interdose withdrawal symptoms were pretty intense and my anxiety over what was happening to me went through the roof so the thought of staying on the drug for a slow taper was just too much for me. Once off I through out all my pills and never looked back.

 

Once I got off Ambien, I believe that many of the withdrawal symptoms that I experienced were mostly effects of sleep deprivation since I got hit pretty hard with insomnia because during rare periods of sleep I did feel better. I remember being pretty crazy toward the end while I was still taking the drug and it seems like the interdose withdrawal symptoms were pretty constant throughout the day and later at night when the drug wore off. I must be very sensitive to this sort of medication, but not everone experiences such problems. I have a good buddy who took Ambien every night for years and just got off without any issues. He never increased his dosage and tolerance never was not a problem for him. He was lucky.

 

Lunesta is just another flavor of the same drug so I would not look for anything better in that direction.

 

Going back to what you told us earlier, I would seek out some more information before tapering in the order that your doctor would have you do. Valium has a long half-life and is much more stable in your system. I would think that it would help a little with an Ambien withdrawal while getting off Ambien last might possibly make the Valium withdrawal worse.

 

 

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Uh oh.. woke up tremulous (not unusual) but thought to take bp: 149/99. Anyone have bp suddenly not good and what did you do? So may have to tell my local dr who just got rx's from that am tapering? Feel like attempt to get off ruining my health ;(  Being on it ruins health and also off... can't win...
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Blood pressure fluctuations and tachycardia (racing heart) are fairly common withdrawal symptoms.  I knew another buddy that was hooked up to a holter monitor for about 3 weeks because his heart rate would randomly skyrocket along with his BP.  Everything came back normal and eventually those symptoms faded.  There is a plethora of symptoms Benzos may cause.  See the list below:

 

(NOTE:  These patient-reported signs and symptoms were either nonexistent prior to the benzodiazepine prescription, or exponentially worsened while taking the drug.  For instance, those put on these drugs for anxiety may begin experiencing intensifying anxiety and panic attacks like they’ve never before experienced.  Often, this is incorrectly attributed to the original, pre-existing condition worsening.)

 

THESE ARE JUST SOME OF THE MANY REPORTED SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS INDICATING YOU OR SOMEONE YOU CARE ABOUT MAY BE HAVING PROBLEMS WITH A BENZODIAZEPINE PRESCRIPTION:

MENTAL/COGNITIVE/BEHAVIORAL SIGNS.  You may or may not experience these symptoms.

 

    Aggressive Behavior

    Agitation/Irritability/Short Tempered/Rage Outbursts

    Agoraphobia

    Anhedonia

    Anxiety/Panic/Terror Attacks/Development of Various Fears and Phobias

    Apathy

    Cognitive Impairment/Fog

    Confusion

    Crying

    Depression

    Depersonalization

    Derealization

    Dysphoria

    Emotional Lability

    Feeling numb or like a “zombie on autopilot”/Feeling over-sedated

    Hallucinations

    Hearing Voices

    Impaired Judgment

    Intrusive thoughts/Excessive negative thinking and feelings of doom

    Irrational Thoughts and Behavior

    Loss of Creativity

    Mania

    Memory & Concentration Issues

    Monophobia

    Mood Swings

    Neurocognitive problems

    Obsessive compulsive or other “odd” behavior

    Paranoia

    Personality Changes

    Reckless Behavior

    Self-Harming Thoughts and Behavior

    Stress Intolerance

    Suicidal Ideation

 

PHYSICAL SIGNS

 

    Adrenaline Rushes

    Akathisia/Restlessness

    Allergies & Sensitivities increasing or developing

    Appetite changes

    Aura

    Blood Pressure Issues, fluctuations

    Cardiac Symptoms – Bradycardia (slow heart rate), Tachycardia (rapid heart rate), Heart Palpitations, Pounding heart

    Clenching jaw, especially during sleep (TMJ)

    Chills

    Increased susceptibility to illness, stress on the immune system

    Diminished Motor Skills – Clumsiness, Coordination Problems, Difficulty walking, Dropping things, Falling down

    Dizziness/Vertigo/Balance Issues (General vestibular disturbances)

    Drooling

    Dysautonomia Symptoms

    Dysphagia (swallowing difficulty)

    Earache

    Exhaustion

    Fainting

    Fasciculations (benign)

    Fatigue/Lethargy/Weakness

    Flu-Like Symptoms

    Frequent Urination

    Gastrointestinal Symptoms

    Grinding Teeth / TMJ problms

    Hair Loss

    Headaches

    Hearing loss or changes

    Hormonal Issues

    Hyperacusis (sensitivity to sound frequency)

    Inner Vibrating or Buzzing

    Intolerance to cold and heat

    Itching/Skin Rashes/Hives

    Joint Pain (And other joint issues)

    Lightheaded

    Loss of Coordination

    Malaise

    Menstrual Issues

    Migraine with or without aura

    Motion sickness susceptibility

    Muscle Symptoms – Clenching, Cramping, Loss of muscle tone, Over-or under-active muscle reflexes, Pain, Spasms, Squeezing, Stiffness, Tension, Twitching

    Nerve Pain

    Paresthesia – Tingling, tickling, prickling, numbness, burning of skin

    Perceptual disturbance (feeling of being on a boat, feelings of unreality, deja vu, etc.)

    Peripheral Neuropathy

    Photophobia

    Phonophobia

    Respiratory – Shortness of breath, Can’t get deep breath, Labored breathing, Over-breathing

    Sensitivity to light and sound

    Sensitivity to smells, including naturally occurring smells or chemicals such as fragrance

    Sensitivity to temperature, weather and pressure changes

    Shaking/Rigors/Tremors

    Sleep Issues – Excessive sleeping, Insomnia, Myoclonic jerks, Sleep paralysis, No dreaming, Vivid dreaming, Nightmares

    Slurred Speech

    Sweats

    Tachycardia between doses or in the morning, or generalized

    Tight Throat/Ball-in-throat sensation

    Tinnitus (Ringing or pulsatile effects in ears)

    Tremors

    Vision Issues – blurred vision, seeing spots, grainy visions, after-images, sensitivities

    Weight Loss

    Withdrawal symptoms that will intensify between doses or near dosing times

 

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Uh oh.. woke up tremulous (not unusual) but thought to take bp: 149/99. Anyone have bp suddenly not good and what did you do? So may have to tell my local dr who just got rx's from that am tapering? Feel like attempt to get off ruining my health ;(  Being on it ruins health and also off... can't win...

 

BarbaraAve,

When I was in acute withdrawal my blood pressure spiked very high at least once (only time that I actually checked it). I have never had that happen before, but it gradually worked its way back to my normal baseline fairly fast. When your GABA receptors are knocked off line your sympathetic nervous system is allowed to run wild with fight or flight responses. It is my very strong belief that your health is at much greater risk staying on the medications rather than going through a withdrawal. In the end, nothing bad happened to me.

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Hoping someone can quickly tell me if I want to convert Ambien (zolpidem) to another benzo (really) then get off... how do I do this?  Seeing dr. tomorrow.  Is it slow conversion over?  Or can add it to current valium dose all in one?

And what if we were to go to another drug...  clonapin or librium?

 

Can tolerate Lyrica if that comes into the picture.  Is Lyrica any better than valium or is it just as toxic?

 

OK, thanks much!

 

Am on 3 valium and 10 ambien now.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I had sleep issues ever since I was a child. As a child I was scared to go to sleep by myself and then would wake up very early, then I started getting groggy during the day and had a hard time focusing at school, after puberty it turned into insomnia with periods of hypersomnia, then I got ill with celiac disease and fibromyalgia and slept mostly during the day in sporadic bursts. When I was on Effexor the sleep problems went back to hypersomnia.

I was eventually given klonopin which worked wonders, when they changed the brand though crap hit the fan

Now I'm going on about 1-3 hours a night and working with a Psyche to find something to help.

Thinking very low dose seroquel (50mg literally paralyses me, 25mg makes me a bit too zombie-ish)

 

So yes, sleep problems my whole life.

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I had sleep issues ever since I was a child. As a child I was scared to go to sleep by myself and then would wake up very early, then I started getting groggy during the day and had a hard time focusing at school, after puberty it turned into insomnia with periods of hypersomnia, then I got ill with celiac disease and fibromyalgia and slept mostly during the day in sporadic bursts. When I was on Effexor the sleep problems went back to hypersomnia.

I was eventually given klonopin which worked wonders, when they changed the brand though crap hit the fan

Now I'm going on about 1-3 hours a night and working with a Psyche to find something to help.

Thinking very low dose seroquel (50mg literally paralyses me, 25mg makes me a bit too zombie-ish)

 

So yes, sleep problems my whole life.

 

What were you on that you got off and how did that go?  Are you off klonopin and on seroquel now?  Tried anything else?

 

Thanks for replying.

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Barbara

 

Just read your posts.  I originally went on klonopin because of frequent awakening.  Tired  ambien (nightmares) ambien xr (sleepwalking) lunesta ( no sleep assistance).  I tapered off the klonopin more than 4 years ago after 7 years of it helped then it didn’t, increase dose, helped then didn't until l got to 1 mg and got other health issues.  Want no part of any benzo or benzo like pharmaceutical again.  Somewhere down the line I developed central sleep apnea but I still have the middle of the night awakening with panic.  I use a CPAP it has made my breathing better during sleep but the waking in panic is still there.  Not good for BP.  Went back to therapy recently and realized I have issues that were never addressed properly.

 

Sweet pea

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