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Question - I don’t understand this long hold business?


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Surely the longer we hold, the more the Brain is getting used to not generating its own GABA. I just don’t see how long holds are beneficial. We need to go down so that the brain has to repair itself.

 

Also I don’t understand from a scientific point of view how windows and waves are possible if our GABA receptors are damaged? Surely they’re damaged all the time until they’re healed. How do some of us get windows? They suddenly work again? Doesn’t make sense. I’m intruiged

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Long holds at the right dose have not caused me any problems and have been very helpful, giving my brain time to adjust.  The only time a long hold has not helped me was when I cut too much too fast and I needed to updose more before holding.  If you are not getting

any better or are getting worse after a month of holding you probably need to updose more.

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I totally don’t understand this either.

I’m so glad to hear people say they did stabilize.

But then you hear so many who don’t.

It makes no sense.

I’m praying to stabilize right now.

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Just my personal experience...

 

Near the end of my C&H, each attempted  cut brought misery.  Each time i would hold, 7,8, maybe 10 days, and still be miserable.  Then out of frustration, I would updose, and in 3-4 days, I was OK, every time.

 

And folks, regardless of all your theories, that makes perfect sense.  Withdrawal sxs are caused by an insufficient level of benzo to for the body to maintain equilibrium, so adding more benzo fixes it.

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I don’t think it’s as simple as that though as I know many people who have updosed and it has made them worse and they had to taper anyway

 

Sometimes people do not updose sufficiently to stabilize and/or they do not give it enough time to work.  Once a person destabilizes it takes a pretty significant updose and a quite a bit of time to recover.  Updosing saved me from losing my job and my health. I now taper super slowly and live a normal happy life while getting off this wretched drug.  I see zero reason to make myself ill again.  This process will take as long as it takes.  Some wise person on here once said "Benzos do not negotiate".  I think those are some of the most profound words I ever read. 

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I think we are all too different to have any hard and fast rules...

 

In most cases long holds (3-12months imo) are not a life style choice as such, but more often a last resort...  I would look at it as a bigger picture than just gabba, and thus, we are often far beyond the perview of "Ashton Proticol...  -Up doses and holding dont realy suit "in clinic" or Dr guided tapers, which I personally think may have a bearing on Prof Ashtons works peramiters... I think (from memory) that she does address the fact that there are more complex cases...,

 

The more I see, with long holds and very slow SX guided tapering, there is no half way... Its all or nothing... Many dont give it enough time, assume it isnt working if things get worse before better, or think slow is what some of us would call deathly fast...

So many things in play when it gets complex.... Complete homeostasis instability in some cases, Gabba being but one of the issues...

 

With updoses, again it can be more complex for some... Builder is right, but the changes themselves seem to be part of the problem for people that are rather unstable or sensitive (other meds, past history, etc..)

 

True Paradoxical is probably not compatable to long holds or updoses... But this can get grey, as it isnt so rare for people to experience their doses feeling paradoxical while in WD...

 

For further thoughts, Nova1 just posted a list of quotes on The Long Hold Support Group...

-If anyone is interested...

 

It is a process of finding what works for us, -and doing the best we can to maintain or adjust that... These things, DLMT, Holding, Dose corrections, etc, are just tools to help...

 

:)

 

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I think we are all too different to have any hard and fast rules...

 

In most cases long holds (3-12months imo) are not a life style choice as such, but more often a last resort...  I would look at it as a bigger picture than just gabba, and thus, we are often far beyond the perview of "Ashton Proticol...  -Up doses and holding dont realy suit "in clinic" or Dr guided tapers, which I personally think may have a bearing on Prof Ashtons works peramiters... I think (from memory) that she does address the fact that there are more complex cases...,

 

The more I see, with long holds and very slow SX guided tapering, there is no half way... Its all or nothing... Many dont give it enough time, assume it isnt working if things get worse before better, or think slow is what some of us would call deathly fast...

So many things in play when it gets complex.... Complete homeostasis instability in some cases, Gabba being but one of the issues...

 

With updoses, again it can be more complex for some... Builder is right, but the changes themselves seem to be part of the problem for people that are rather unstable or sensitive (other meds, past history, etc..)

 

True Paradoxical is probably not compatable to long holds or updoses... But this can get grey, as it isnt so rare for people to experience their doses feeling paradoxical while in WD...

 

For further thoughts, Nova1 just posted a list of quotes on The Long Hold Support Group...

-If anyone is interested...

 

It is a process of finding what works for us, -and doing the best we can to maintain or adjust that... These things, DLMT, Holding, Dose corrections, etc, are just tools to help...

 

:)

 

Very well said, Can't 🐢 💕👍🌷

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I agree. IMO things won't get better if you linger at the same dose for months.

 

I've been at 0.25 for nearly 2 weeks now, sucked at the beginning but it's getting easier every day. Next drop is to 0.

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I agree. IMO things won't get better if you linger at the same dose for months.

 

I've been at 0.25 for nearly 2 weeks now, sucked at the beginning but it's getting easier every day. Next drop is to 0.

I think we are talking a whole different language...

-as per your sig, you would never have needed to worry about long holds and such...

 

Well done on a good taper, and I hope the jump goes well..

:)

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Like those who posted before, I’m thinking that it’s likely complex and multi factorial...dependent on the individual as well as factors such as time spent on the benzo, the amount, etc.

 

I went from 2.0 mg to 0.25 mg K rapidly but I suspect my severe WD symptoms were both a factor of my rapid taper and the years I spent on Klonopin. If I had been on K for a few months, I’m pretty sure my WD sxs would have been different. I was getting worse while holding at 0.25 for over a month and when I weighed whether or not I stay there, cut down, go off completely or do a C/O taper, I couldn’t compare myself to someone else because...on top of the more common physical WD sxs, I was experiencing:

-olfactory hallucinations (phantom smells)

-temperature regulation issues

-severe muscle tension/spasms which led to back strains and sciatica

-skin rashes and eczema

-hormonal fluctuations (increased and irregular cycles)

-massive hair loss

I have zero history of these symptoms besides sensitive skin and I knew these were purely neurological and there was a chance I was doing more harm than good. Hopefully the middle way is a way for me.  :)

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:)Hi,

???Head's reeling reading this; know there's V+ information here.  I am getting confused, though.  Have learned through other helpful members about med/blood levels/hours in system/stablizing, etc. & other reading and know different benzo's=different hours.  What I'm not understanding is whether or not members, both benzo-free and members going through active taper, how are you getting from your lowest dose to every other day on that lowest dose to get to zero days of benzo?benzo-free?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don’t think it’s as simple as that though as I know many people who have updosed and it has made them worse and they had to taper anyway

 

Sometimes people do not updose sufficiently to stabilize and/or they do not give it enough time to work.  Once a person destabilizes it takes a pretty significant updose and a quite a bit of time to recover.  Updosing saved me from losing my job and my health. I now taper super slowly and live a normal happy life while getting off this wretched drug.  I see zero reason to make myself ill again.  This process will take as long as it takes.  Some wise person on here once said "Benzos do not negotiate".  I think those are some of the most profound words I ever read.

 

Tweed8, read this again.  I can understand it is easy to question the process of tapering.  Yes, the drug is staying in your body but it is slowly being reduced, hopefully you can keep the med and sxs as equal as possible.  The gaba receptors are healing, slowly and not all at once.  This is in no way a linear process. Some people never have windows and waves, so far I haven't.  I have made many mistakes through this taper and caused myself many problems, mostly by going too fast and not keeping meds and sxs on even keel, then of course, I didn't have a clue what I was doing, until I found Ashton manual online, then found bb.  My Dr agreed to help me with Ashton taper, unfortunately I had a very rough time with Valium (please read my signature).

There are quite a few people who struggle with Valium and believe Ashton's recommendations are too fast, many don't

People hold when their sxs are out of control.  Your brain and cns crave stability and the sxs are your bodies way of getting that stability back.  Holding is hard, but you are stabilizing on the same amount of meds, don't change anything while you hold, dosing, time, amount, nothing.  I'm not a doctor, but between the research I have done on here, other places, and what I have gone through, holding does work. 

If I remember correctly, you are not stable.  You need to be as close to stable as possible before you start tapering or you are just digging a bigger hole to get out of, more time than holding.  Stable doesn't mean you have no symptoms, just that those symptoms are controllable.  Everyone is different, what drugs they took, how long, ages, health before, too many things to count.  All this is just my opinion.  If you do hold and become stable, really consider daily liquid micro taper, you can go as slow or fast as your body allows.  I am not sure there is a way to convince you, and it is all your choice.  I wish you lots of luck, Mary

 

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I am someone who has updosed and held for long time periods. I am not a success story as I have not gotten off the drug yet, but I know at some point I will. This strategy has allowed me to remain mostly stable.

 

I most recently updosed and held after almost eight months of constant nausea, then my youngest son is very sick, and I had to be 100 percent or as close to 100 percent as possible to deal with his medical issues. For me, this is not the right time to taper. I am doing mostly okay on 50 percent of my original dose. I am not getting worse with my hold, not getting worse staying on the drug vs. going down.

 

Everyone is different, and no one can tell what will work best for you. It is very different based on dosage, length of time on the drug (for me, sadly, 20 years now), what is going on in the rest of your life. I probably could taper to zero if I did not have to work full time and if I did not have a sick 16 year old who we cannot even get a diagnosis and is literally wasting away in front of us (most likely Crohn's disease). We all need to do what we need to do to get through the day. For some, updoses and long holds work; for others, I think pushing through the tough parts might work better.

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I am someone who has updosed and held for long time periods. I am not a success story as I have not gotten off the drug yet, but I know at some point I will. This strategy has allowed me to remain mostly stable.

 

I most recently updosed and held after almost eight months of constant nausea, then my youngest son is very sick, and I had to be 100 percent or as close to 100 percent as possible to deal with his medical issues. For me, this is not the right time to taper. I am doing mostly okay on 50 percent of my original dose. I am not getting worse with my hold, not getting worse staying on the drug vs. going down.

 

Everyone is different, and no one can tell what will work best for you. It is very different based on dosage, length of time on the drug (for me, sadly, 20 years now), what is going on in the rest of your life. I probably could taper to zero if I did not have to work full time and if I did not have a sick 16 year old who we cannot even get a diagnosis and is literally wasting away in front of us (most likely Crohn's disease). We all need to do what we need to do to get through the day. For some, updoses and long holds work; for others, I think pushing through the tough parts might work better.

 

I totally agree NJ, everyone is so different, there is no answer.....just opinions and experiences for each individual.  :). 💜🙏☮️

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My problem with HOLDING is that my BP is spiking to dangerous levels regularly.  So If I continue to taper, it will get worse. I could experience a heart attack, stroke ...etc.  Doctor wanted to updose me but I turned him down.  I am not going through this hell for nothing.

 

  And yes, I'm still getting symptoms, so weak, shaking, I cannot even go out to the grocery store.  It's that bad.  I think my Brain thinks I went COLD TURKEY bcuz I weaned 20 mgs in less than 4 months.  That's why I'm on hold now.

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My problem with HOLDING is that my BP is spiking to dangerous levels regularly.  So If I continue to taper, it will get worse. I could experience a heart attack, stroke ...etc.  Doctor wanted to updose me but I turned him down.  I am not going through this hell for nothing.

 

  And yes, I'm still getting symptoms, so weak, shaking, I cannot even go out to the grocery store.  It's that bad.  I think my Brain thinks I went COLD TURKEY bcuz I weaned 20 mgs in less than 4 months.  That's why I'm on hold now.

 

I think you are doing the right thing by holding, but you did cut a large amount, I am going to bump your post to get other opinions.  That was such a large amount, I know you don't want to updose, but you might want to think about it if you are having bad sxs. Let's see what others have to say .

 

 

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Thank you NJ, -a valuable post indeed...

My thoughts are with you both, and I hope you get answers for your son very soon...

 

Hope, :)

 

An aspect that I felt was important to ME was that I think I healed better by attempting to minimise symptoms and slowly "teasing" the meds out...  Though im not sure that I could have tapered much faster even if I wanted to... My whole Idea was to not shock my system, and to allow my chemistry to slowly re-adapt in a wholistic manner.. -Preferably without taking any short cuts in its quest to maintain homiostasis and crytical functions... All I could use was my bodys reaction to medicine reduction, Which led me to some Dose Corrections after either cutting too much or too fast for my aims..  Sometimes a single rescue dose got me over a "hump", and on occasion I opted to increase my dose to a point that better matched where my healing was at...

 

One of the most valuable things I gained from holding was that I got a much clearer picture of my personal patterns of symptoms and healing that followed a cut... Which made planning and acceptance much easier for the rest of my taper.. Holding gave me much confidence...

It is probably a good tool for people that have concerns about secondary issues that may affect ones taper too, -allowing them time explore and address these if needed.. eg. Pollydrugging, Deficiencies and possible medical issues...

 

It is also clear to me that extended holding is not for everyone... Some things that spring to mind are, Short term use, true paridoxical reactions, Strong addiction vs physical dependancy, and even ongoing medicine supplies... I imagine there are more..  -Maybe personal beliefs, as it would be very hard to see a long hold through if one had no faith in it.. -esp when things are up n down as they often can be...

 

Its a bugger that there can be so much to consider, -a "rule book" would be nice at times... But I guess even my mistakes gave me the benifit of information... Not so easy to put that spin on it with serious heart/BP, or similar issues going on though..

 

I wish you the best as you sift through information and make the best choice you can..

I hope you feel much better real soon...

:)

 

***

Mary M...

🐸🐢🐊🌻

:)

 

 

 

 

 

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Thank you NJ, -a valuable post indeed...

My thoughts are with you both, and I hope you get answers for your son very soon...

 

Hope, :)

 

An aspect that I felt was important to ME was that I think I healed better by attempting to minimise symptoms and slowly "teasing" the meds out...  Though im not sure that I could have tapered much faster even if I wanted to... My whole Idea was to not shock my system, and to allow my chemistry to slowly re-adapt in a wholistic manner.. -Preferably without taking any short cuts in its quest to maintain homiostasis and crytical functions... All I could use was my bodys reaction to medicine reduction, Which led me to some Dose Corrections after either cutting too much or too fast for my aims..  Sometimes a single rescue dose got me over a "hump", and on occasion I opted to increase my dose to a point that better matched where my healing was at...

 

One of the most valuable things I gained from holding was that I got a much clearer picture of my personal patterns of symptoms and healing that followed a cut... Which made planning and acceptance much easier for the rest of my taper.. Holding gave me much confidence...

It is probably a good tool for people that have concerns about secondary issues that may affect ones taper too, -allowing them time explore and address these if needed.. eg. Pollydrugging, Deficiencies and possible medical issues...

 

It is also clear to me that extended holding is not for everyone... Some things that spring to mind are, Short term use, true paridoxical reactions, Strong addiction vs physical dependancy, and even ongoing medicine supplies... I imagine there are more..  -Maybe personal beliefs, as it would be very hard to see a long hold through if one had no faith in it.. -esp when things are up n down as they often can be...

 

Its a bugger that there can be so much to consider, -a "rule book" would be nice at times... But I guess even my mistakes gave me the benifit of information... Not so easy to put that spin on it with serious heart/BP, or similar issues going on though..

 

I wish you the best as you sift through information and make the best choice you can..

I hope you feel much better real soon...

:)

 

***

Mary M...

🐸🐢🐊🌻

:)

 

Great explanation Can't!

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Hi.    I tend to agree with the people that holds that are too long may just prolong the suffering and healing.  And then there's the tolerance w/dr thing.  I think I went into big time tolerance w/dr right away on 1mg Klonopin (original script) and suffered for a year on that dose not understanding what was going on.  As I'm coming off, three weeks seems to be my best hold time.  I'm a newbie - and sorry I don't have the signature thing yet - but I believe to tread water for too long can be counter productive for me.  But again, it's an individual thing.  I'm trusting my body and the basics of Dr. Ashton.  And I think/hope SOME healing is going on with every taper.  I think it gets down to not shocking the brain.  Before I figured out that the Klon was the cause, I cut the 1mg to .5 instinctively - a whopping 50% (angels watch out for fools, they say) now down to .25 for 3wks - again, another perhaps foolish 50% reduction.  But as hard as it's been and is now, I feel much better than I did when I took the 1mg for months and months, oblivious the drug was the cause of the nightmare symptoms.

 

Much love and compassion to all

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Hi.    I tend to agree with the people that holds that are too long may just prolong the suffering and healing.  And then there's the tolerance w/dr thing.  I think I went into big time tolerance w/dr right away on 1mg Klonopin (original script) and suffered for a year on that dose not understanding what was going on.  As I'm coming off, three weeks seems to be my best hold time.  I'm a newbie - and sorry I don't have the signature thing yet - but I believe to tread water for too long can be counter productive for me.  But again, it's an individual thing.  I'm trusting my body and the basics of Dr. Ashton.  And I think/hope SOME healing is going on with every taper.  I think it gets down to not shocking the brain.  Before I figured out that the Klon was the cause, I cut the 1mg to .5 instinctively - a whopping 50% (angels watch out for fools, they say) now down to .25 for 3wks - again, another perhaps foolish 50% reduction.  But as hard as it's been and is now, I feel much better than I did when I took the 1mg for months and months, oblivious the drug was the cause of the nightmare symptoms.

 

Much love and compassion to all

 

Welchie, we support whatever works best for the individual and are just excited when they find it, Mary ☮️🙏💜🎄🎄

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