Are we telling people the wrong thing ?

Not to mention the Vioxx recall, as well:

When half a million Americans died and nobody noticed

Was the US drug Vioxx responsible for far more deaths than has been acknowledged so far?

https://www.theweek.co.uk/us/46535/when-half-million-americans-died-and-nobody-noticed

"Patterns of cause and effect cannot easily be proven," Unz continues. "But if we hypothesise a direct connection between the recall of a class of very popular drugs proven to cause fatal heart attacks and other deadly illnesses with an immediate drop in the national rate of fatal heart attacks and other deadly illnesses, then the statistical implications are quite serious."

In the end, we're all gonna die.

 

Why can't the doctors save us? Centuries of investment in medical research by mankind and there isn't yet a pill that can save us from death? When man can fly to the moon and back, why can he not cure death? Sometimes I feel that all the medical industry is interested in is selling drugs. Even if they find a cure for death, they would hide it from us - immortality is bad for business.

 

I'm quite sure there's a cure for cancer as well but more money can be made by big pharma when people are sick. Come to think of it Cannabis has been known to cure cancer in some people.

 

There are so many things wrong with your theory, it is difficult to know where to start. Firstly, 'cancer' is a collective name for very many different diseases, with very different causes and ways they might be treated or cured. Secondly, the financial benefits stemming form a 'cure' for just one of the larger cancers would be astronomical - well worth selling. Thirdly, there are already cures for many cancers. Fourthly, pharmacology is really hard. Fifthly, give me an effin break.

LOL What theory?? Big pharma is a billion dollar industry that makes money off of people being sick. PERIOD!!  Watch the series The Sacred Plant. You will learn all about the evils of the pharmaceutical companies and patients’ stories about how cannabis cured them of various cancers. Stop trying to start an argument where none needs to be started.

Fifthly, give me an effin break.

 

Bluewaters, what is this...?  You feel that the medical industry is interested only in selling drugs? Do my eyes deceive me? 

 

Big picture---------> own experience-------> step beyond said experience.

Those words mean anything to you? 

Sorry PSVT, I was being facetious. I don't believe the medical industry "can" profiteer. I'm sure they "want" to.

Without commenting on the truth of our present situation,it seems perfectly reasonable to posit that continued care of chronic disease is more profitable than curing said conditions

It is not possible to generalize like this without figures. Insurance companies sell annuities wherein a premium paid upfront is repaid as fixed annual sums to the insurer. Evidently the insurance companies profit from annuities but they show how a one time payment (premium) can be more profitable than a recurring or chronic and lifelong payment (annuity). From yet another perspective, things are so fast changing in the medical world, that drug companies would like to recover their R&D quickly (as in entice patients to high prices by promise of cure) than in installments spread over decades (therapy) because long paybacks can get disrupted by newer drugs (greater risk in ROI).

Without commenting on the truth of our present situation,it seems perfectly reasonable to posit that continued care of chronic disease is more profitable than curing said conditions

Thank you. Someone else who is enlightened and not fooled by Big Pharma 

Without commenting on the truth of our present situation,it seems perfectly reasonable to posit that continued care of chronic disease is more profitable than curing said conditions

Thank you. Someone else who is enlightened and not fooled by Big Pharma 

Who is gunna pick the apples..??

Without commenting on the truth of our present situation,it seems perfectly reasonable to posit that continued care of chronic disease is more profitable than curing said conditions

Thank you. Someone else who is enlightened and not fooled by Big Pharma 

So a nation of sick people is good for business, -a countries economy?? Well here at least our government predomantly foots the bill.. (Aust.)

 

Who is gunna pick the apples..??

 

 

No government takes care of anyone. They pay for healthcare by raising taxes so essentially it’s the people who are paying.

Without commenting on the truth of our present situation,it seems perfectly reasonable to posit that continued care of chronic disease is more profitable than curing said conditions

Thank you. Someone else who is enlightened and not fooled by Big Pharma 

So a nation of sick people is good for business, -a countries economy?? Well here at least our government predomantly foots the bill.. (Aust.)

 

Who is gunna pick the apples..??

 

 

No government takes care of anyone. They pay for healthcare by raising taxes so essentially it’s the people who are paying.

It’s called budget allocation. The amount of tax revenue is irrelevant.

I'm quite sure there's a cure for cancer as well but more money can be made by big pharma when people are sick. Come to think of it Cannabis has been known to cure cancer in some people.

 

There are so many things wrong with your theory, it is difficult to know where to start. Firstly, 'cancer' is a collective name for very many different diseases, with very different causes and ways they might be treated or cured. Secondly, the financial benefits stemming form a 'cure' for just one of the larger cancers would be astronomical - well worth selling. Thirdly, there are already cures for many cancers. Fourthly, pharmacology is really hard. Fifthly, give me an effin break.

 

LOL What theory?? Big pharma is a billion dollar industry that makes money off of people being sick. PERIOD!!  Watch the series The Sacred Plant. You will learn all about the evils of the pharmaceutical companies and patients’ stories about how cannabis cured them of various cancers. Stop trying to start an argument where none needs to be started.

There ya go. Glad to be of assistance.

No government takes care of anyone. They pay for healthcare by raising taxes so essentially it’s the people who are paying.

It’s called budget allocation. The amount of tax revenue is irrelevant.

It's not the amount, but the original source of funding that determines who is paying for what.  SylviaS is correct, her statement is predicated on "the rule of inception."

Blue Waters said

It is not possible to generalize like this without figures.

Sorry to disagree The logic I am suggesting is inferential. Sure it is nice to have empirical data to support it But the lack of such numbers is not in and of itself a refutation of the logic. Nor is it likely to be possible to gather such numbers in a comprehensive or meaningful way.

Lets also be clear the D, development, in R and D is a bit of a euphemism We should just call it advertising It is my understanding no other western democracy allows commercial advertising on television and other forums that are allowed here. Plenty of evidence that the pharmaceutical industries receive plenty of subsidies from their interconnections with university and other government funded research And for all of this we are tied with Cuba for life expectancy, one of the worst among the western democracies One of the highest rates of iatrogenic deaths as well

Blue Waters said

 

It is not possible to generalize like this without figures.

 

 

Sorry to disagree The logic I am suggesting is inferential. Sure it is nice to have empirical data to support it But the lack of such numbers is not in and of itself a refutation of the logic. Nor is it likely to be possible to gather such numbers in a comprehensive or meaningful way.

If there are no numbers, how does the logic stand? The only prerequisite required for pharma to profit from a transaction with you is the exchange of money. How this money changes hands -- by installments or as one shot -- is unimportant because pharma will ensure they profit regardless of how they are paid and which agent of yours (govt/insurance) pays for it.

Lets also be clear the D, development, in R and D is a bit of a euphemism We should just call it advertising It is my understanding no other western democracy allows commercial advertising on television and other forums that are allowed here. Plenty of evidence that the pharmaceutical industries receive plenty of subsidies from their interconnections with university and other government funded research And for all of this we are tied with Cuba for life expectancy, one of the worst among the western democracies One of the highest rates of iatrogenic deaths as well

If doctors receive commissions and pharma gives subsidies, it is also true that you know about it. Your being aware of these transactions gives it sanctity and makes it legitimate.

If a drug company charges you $X for a drug, then if you look at it a certain way, that is also a crime. After all, why should anyone charge you money to save your life? It is blackmail. Thus identifying any particular component of the transaction as the illegitimate one does not make sense unless all the figures are on the table.

I am not saying regulators are perfect and do not need to clean up their acts any further. There is probably a reason why US fares only as good as Cuba and it needs to be corrected. But, isolated examples like colleges subsidizing pharma doesn't prove anything. Tak another example to understand how nuanced this all really is: Japan has the highest consumption of benzodiazepines. It also has the highest life expectancy & best & affordable medical care. How did this happen? (Ashton has been translated into Japanese and there are Japanese BBs to support those withdrawing.)

Blue Waters said

 

It is not possible to generalize like this without figures.

 

 

Sorry to disagree The logic I am suggesting is inferential. Sure it is nice to have empirical data to support it But the lack of such numbers is not in and of itself a refutation of the logic. Nor is it likely to be possible to gather such numbers in a comprehensive or meaningful way.

 

Lets also be clear the D, development, in R and D is a bit of a euphemism We should just call it advertising It is my understanding no other western democracy allows commercial advertising on television and other forums that are allowed here. Plenty of evidence that the pharmaceutical industries receive plenty of subsidies from their interconnections with university and other government funded research And for all of this we are tied with Cuba for life expectancy, one of the worst among the western democracies One of the highest rates of iatrogenic deaths as well

Bluewaters

I think this one is right up your alley?

Can you translate for me, you know me and those big words and what not?

Blue Waters said

 

It is not possible to generalize like this without figures.

 

 

Sorry to disagree The logic I am suggesting is inferential. Sure it is nice to have empirical data to support it But the lack of such numbers is not in and of itself a refutation of the logic. Nor is it likely to be possible to gather such numbers in a comprehensive or meaningful way.

 

Lets also be clear the D, development, in R and D is a bit of a euphemism We should just call it advertising It is my understanding no other western democracy allows commercial advertising on television and other forums that are allowed here. Plenty of evidence that the pharmaceutical industries receive plenty of subsidies from their interconnections with university and other government funded research And for all of this we are tied with Cuba for life expectancy, one of the worst among the western democracies One of the highest rates of iatrogenic deaths as well

 

Bluewaters

 

I think this one is right up your alley?

 

Can you translate for me, you know me and those big words and what not?

 

Ha ha ha.  In order to translate, it is necessary that I understand what is being spoken. i don't think I do in entirety.

Advertising of drugs, in my personal opinion, is wrong. It should be stopped.

Pharma receiving subsidies is OK in my personal opinion.

Pharma giving commissions and gratis to doctors is not OK in my personal opinion.

I do not believe in free market for drugs. I believe in aggressive regulation.

My personal opinion does not make for good regulatory policy.

Thanks Bluewaters

I concur *patting myself on the back* with your post / translation. (No, I did not google the meaning of that one)

Chill y'all, it's so unbecoming, ENOUGH!!

Hey ginger

Please don't stress over bluewaters and I ( if you were that is?) we have a "thing" going on, it's just friendly banter, we're cool.

Just sayin' if anyone else thinks we are at each other, we aren't! ( I don't.....think so ?)

We're just teasing each other and ourselves.....or me anyway!

You know what, if anyone had a reason to be completely anti doctors it would be me.

I have been treated appallingly in the 22 .5 years since I first got ill.

I have an ME diagnosis (from a GP & neurologist) which doctors disbelieve, ridicule and minimise and allowed them to treat me like shit. If a doctor had listened originally and Drs did not dismiss ME I would not have kept trying to go to work and ended up bedridden in a dark room for 2 years. I would not, then have injured my spine or have been put on diazepam.

It took 20 years for them to refer me to a rheumatologist who diagnosed hypermobility.

I took an overdose in 2001 because my sciatica and spinal pain were so unbearable and nobody would listen. When I had to get an ambulance to AE E after waking up with loss of muscle tone in my legs they wanted to send me home. I had to threaten to kill myself for them to keep me in and do a scan which revealed a piece of disc was in my spinal canal and do surgery.

After the surgery something else in my spine went wrong. Nobody would listen and I was put on diazepam for 20 years.

Now they have no idea about WD and I am in hell.

I have spent 22.5 years extremely unwell and doctors have said things like ‘It’s not like you are lolling around in the chair is it?’. ‘You just need to move forward’ etc. Not one of them has ever really tried to understand how unwell I am and since WD they have slapped an FND & MUPS label on me.

Given I have been saying since 1996 that my head is too heavy, I feel concussed, The colours go dim and when something shifts in my neck the colours get brighter and numerous other things that I now think might be due to craniocervical instability caused by hypermobility and worsened by diazepam.

Often I do hate doctors, they can be arrogant beyond believe and dismissive, they are often dehumanised during medical training. There is a book by two Drs explaining that process - can’t remember what it is called atm.

If I do have Craniocervical Instability I won’t be able to get it treated in the U.K. people are having to raise £90,000 to go to Spain for surgery and atm I scared of my own living space anyway due to WD which my GP has no knowledge of.

But, if I survive WD and need some treatment for other things it will be medical science I turn to for it.

Atm nothing helps me pain when it is agonising apart from drugs prescribed by my GP.

You can read a story of how arrogant and destructive Drs can be here: https://www.mechanicalbasis.org/

But it is also medical science that has saved this person’s life and is helping restore them to health.

You know what, if anyone had a reason to be completely anti doctors it would be me.

 

I have been treated appallingly in the 22 .5 years since I first got ill.

 

I have an ME diagnosis which has given doctors a listen ear to treat me like shit. If a doctor had listened originally and Drs did not dismiss ME I would not have kept trying to go to work and ended up bedridden in a dark room for 2 years. I would not, then have injured my spine or have been put on diazepam.

 

It took 20 years for them to refer me to a rheumatologist who diagnosed hypermobility.

 

I took an overdose in 2001 because my sciatica and spinal pain were so unbearable and nobody would listen. When I had to get an ambulance to AE E after waking up with loss of muscle tone in my legs they wanted to send me home. I had to threaten to kill myself for them to keep me in and do a scan which revealed a piece of disc was in my spinal canal and do surgery.

 

After the surgery something else in my spine went wrong. Nobody would listen and I was put on diazepam for 20 years.

 

Now they have no idea about WD and I am in hell.

 

I have spent 22.5 years extremely unwell and doctors have said things like ‘It’s not like you are lolling around in the chair is it?’. ‘You just need to move forward’ etc. Not one of them has ever really tried to understand how unwell I am and since WD they have slapped an FND & MUPS label on me.

 

Given I have been saying since 1996 that my head is too heavy, I feel concussed, The colours go dim and when something shifts in my neck the colours get brighter and numerous other things that I now think might be due to craniocervical instability caused by hypermobility and worsened by diazepam.

 

Often I do hate doctors, they can be arrogant beyond believe and dismissive, they are often dehumanised during medical training. There is a book by two Drs explaining that process - can’t remember what it is called atm.

 

If I do have Craniocervical Instability I won’t be able to get it treated in the U.K. people are having to raise £90,000 to go to Spain for surgery and atm I scared of my own living space anyway due to WD which my GP has no knowledge of.

 

 

But, if I survive WD and need some treatment for other things it will be medical science I turn to for it.

 

Atm nothing helps me pain when it is agonising apart from drugs prescribed by my GP.

 

 

You can read a story of how arrogant and destructive Drs can be here: https://www.mechanicalbasis.org/

 

But it is also medical science that has saved this person’s life and is helping restore them to health.

I am so desperately sorry, in your shoes I would hate doctors with a vengeance I think and I can understand the depth of feelings in the ME community.  I can only think of one other person who has had her spine damaged because a neurologist decided to operate on her when she was suffering from the adverse effects of benzos.  I am heartbroken for you and for her.

Thing is it was doctors/surgeons who did the surgery that a I needed.

It is medical research and science that is finding the bio-medical basis of ME & hypermobility and if/when that becomes mainstream it will be Drs that will provide the treatments.

Smoking dope or taking CBD is not going to fix me.

If a I get through WD I can eat healthily, try to exercise in ways right for me, try to gain as much strength as I can but it will be medicine I turn too for further help because there is no other option.

So, while I do have many of them, I am also grateful for modern analgesics and surgery etc. I am grateful that my GP runs blood tests and has tried to check everything since WD including some very rare tests requested by a neurologist - of course I did have to pay for that... been waiting a year for NHS appointment.

Thing is it was doctors/surgeons who did the surgery that a I needed.

It is medical research and science that is finding the bio-medical basis of ME & hypermobility and if/when that becomes mainstream it will be Drs that will provide the treatments.

 

Smoking dope or taking CBD is not going to fix me.

 

If a I get through WD I can eat healthily, try to exercise in ways right for me, try to gain as much strength as I can but it will be medicine I turn too for further help because there is no other option.

 

So, while I do have many of them, I am also grateful for modern analgesics and surgery etc. I am grateful that my GP runs blood tests and has tried to check everything since WD including some very rare tests requested by a neurologist - of course I did have to pay for that... been waiting a year for NHS appointment.

Yes, we have to have a balanced view of these things .. I have been grateful for help many a time too ... and I always remember that.  And I may well be grateful again in the future. I do hope you can get to a point where you can start to get stronger .. I have been surprised at the progress I have made, it just hasn't been enough to become functional, I am older and have different issues, my brain feels all wrong inside my head, a physical thing ..

Blue Waters said

If there are no numbers, how does the logic stand?

So I want to be respectful, but inferential and propositional logic are pretty well established foundational tenants of rationality Even empiricism and science itself is limited by logic in that the results of science can only be seen as a working hypothesis that has showed a consistency up until now, but cannot make logical claims about the future without a certain leap of faith. If you are not familiar with propositional logic please look up Frege, as much as a kind of hate some of his conclusions

I guess I would add empiricism really tends to work for measurement on natural phenomenon and very much less effective in measuring human activity Maybe you could outline how you would go about measuring an inclination towards a given activity?

  Part of what I am suggesting is that quantities can be compared in the abstract For instance a one time pill that cures everything should, given certain understandings, cost less than a pill you take everyday for a lifetime There can be confounding factors to this of course but there is a undeniable logic at work on some level in my opinion I understand this is not the exact argument I have made and that is intentional to try to demonstrate the logic in the form of an example

Thing is it was doctors/surgeons who did the surgery that a I needed.

It is medical research and science that is finding the bio-medical basis of ME & hypermobility and if/when that becomes mainstream it will be Drs that will provide the treatments.

 

Smoking dope or taking CBD is not going to fix me.

 

If a I get through WD I can eat healthily, try to exercise in ways right for me, try to gain as much strength as I can but it will be medicine I turn too for further help because there is no other option.

 

So, while I do have many of them, I am also grateful for modern analgesics and surgery etc. I am grateful that my GP runs blood tests and has tried to check everything since WD including some very rare tests requested by a neurologist - of course I did have to pay for that... been waiting a year for NHS appointment.

 

Yes, we have to have a balanced view of these things .. I have been grateful for help many a time too ... and I always remember that.  And I may well be grateful again in the future. I do hope you can get to a point where you can start to get stronger .. I have been surprised at the progress I have made, it just hasn't been enough to become functional, I am older and have different issues, my brain feels all wrong inside my head, a physical thing ..

Do you think some of that is from the epilepsy etc. or is it all from the drugs and WD?