Bye folks And Good Luck

I'm leaving BB due to the intolerance and editting of a response to an introduction thread by an admin. Here's my account closure request:-

 

Please close my account with immediate effect. I do not wish to belong to BB's any longer as the heavy handed approach of a certain admin to a post I responded to. My comments were not offensive, threatening or disrespectful in any way to any individual. My comments were taken down and dismissed by the admin. I simply asked that 'kindling' not be presented as fact to a new member in an introduction. There's only anecdotal evidence to support this and many have a problem despite others having no problems with muliple withdrawals. I fully accept some have it tougher the 2nd or third time around btw. I think using kindling as fact to a new members introduction by an admin could be potetially damaging to the new BB. Obviously the admin concerned didn't seem to think so and provided no evdidence to support her comment in a response that now appears to have been deleted. It would appear any onservation that contradicts an admins statement is not tolerated so I'm out.

Regards,

Staz

I'm leaving BB due to the intolerance and editting of a response to an introduction thread by an admin. Here's my account closure request:-

 

Please close my account with immediate effect. I do not wish to belong to BB's any longer as the heavy handed approach of a certain admin to a post I responded to. My comments were not offensive, threatening or disrespectful in any way to any individual. My comments were taken down and dismissed by the admin. I simply asked that 'kindling' not be presented as fact to a new member in an introduction. There's only anecdotal evidence to support this and many have a problem despite others having no problems with muliple withdrawals. I fully accept some have it tougher the 2nd or third time around btw. I think using kindling as fact to a new members introduction by an admin could be potetially damaging to the new BB. Obviously the admin concerned didn't seem to think so and provided no evdidence to support her comment in a response that now appears to have been deleted. It would appear any onservation that contradicts an admins statement is not tolerated so I'm out.

Regards,

Staz

 

My response has not be deleted. Maybe you better get the facts straight before you post false accusations. Please take this up at the help desk Staz

 

 

I'm leaving BB due to the intolerance and editting of a response to an introduction thread by an admin. Here's my account closure request:-

 

Please close my account with immediate effect. I do not wish to belong to BB's any longer as the heavy handed approach of a certain admin to a post I responded to. My comments were not offensive, threatening or disrespectful in any way to any individual. My comments were taken down and dismissed by the admin. I simply asked that 'kindling' not be presented as fact to a new member in an introduction. There's only anecdotal evidence to support this and many have a problem despite others having no problems with muliple withdrawals. I fully accept some have it tougher the 2nd or third time around btw. I think using kindling as fact to a new members introduction by an admin could be potetially damaging to the new BB. Obviously the admin concerned didn't seem to think so and provided no evdidence to support her comment in a response that now appears to have been deleted. It would appear any onservation that contradicts an admins statement is not tolerated so I'm out.

Regards,

Staz

 

My response has not be deleted. Maybe you better get the facts straight before you post false accusations. Please take this up at the help desk Staz

My apologies Bella. The post hasn't been deleted. The rest of my comments stand as does my request to have my account deleted. I wish all BB's well.

Regards

Staz

wee bit dramatic

You seem pretty wound up over nothing, Staz. We here definitely don't need the dramatics. Good luck with your journey.

I'm leaving BB due to the intolerance and editting of a response to an introduction thread by an admin. Here's my account closure request:-

 

Please close my account with immediate effect. I do not wish to belong to BB's any longer as the heavy handed approach of a certain admin to a post I responded to. My comments were not offensive, threatening or disrespectful in any way to any individual. My comments were taken down and dismissed by the admin. I simply asked that 'kindling' not be presented as fact to a new member in an introduction. There's only anecdotal evidence to support this and many have a problem despite others having no problems with muliple withdrawals. I fully accept some have it tougher the 2nd or third time around btw. I think using kindling as fact to a new members introduction by an admin could be potetially damaging to the new BB. Obviously the admin concerned didn't seem to think so and provided no evdidence to support her comment in a response that now appears to have been deleted. It would appear any onservation that contradicts an admins statement is not tolerated so I'm out.

Regards,

Staz

 

My response has not be deleted. Maybe you better get the facts straight before you post false accusations. Please take this up at the help desk Staz

My apologies Bella. The post hasn't been deleted. The rest of my comments stand as does my request to have my account deleted. I wish all BB's well.

Regards

Staz

 

Hi all.

 

I don't mean to single-out Staz's post - just taking advantage of the (linked) mention and general disagreements/speculation surrounding the subject of 'kindling'.

 

BB does not have an 'official position' on kindling. I'd encourage members to read the scientific literature (or the more reliable secondary sources). In the main, I find Wikipedia a pretty good starting point for most subjects (but read below).

 

When I first read about kindling occurring from benzodiazepine withdrawal, it was quite apparent that the evidence was very weak. It was not that there was evidence against it - just no good evidence (either way). I am not sure if that position has changed very much. There is anecdotal evidence, but that is very difficult to evaluate. At best it indicates that research is required, but is totally unreliable in of itself. Because benzodiazepines and alcohol act somewhat similarly upon GABA receptors, I think there is reason to suspect that benzodiazepines might cause kindling effects in some individuals. I think, though, if there is an effect, it probably affects a small number of people. But this is no more than speculation. I think it warrants research, but as far as I can tell, no one can reliably claim that this effect from use of benzodiazepines is real or not. Certainly, we should avoid the expectation of such an effect. Assuming that the effect is real, I think it would be firmly established by now if the effect was commonplace.

 

Here are some older posts of mine on the subject. My view has not really changed over that time because there has been very little additional research (though, I don't really follow such things, so please correct me with links to reliable sources if I am out of date).

 

I'd also like to take this opportunity to make clear that the moderation and admin team exists to keep order. BB is structured as a peer-support discussion board - the team are not your doctors, counsellors or advisors. I try not to dictate what kind of discussion might take place at BB: there is no official line; no dogma. However, we do not allow for speculation to be reported as fact.

 

Here are a few old posts of mine on the subject:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=24792.msg373377#msg373377

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=69869.msg945971#msg945971

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=142186.msg1916309#msg1916309

 

Please note: the quality of the kindling article at Wikipedia has varied a lot over the years.

 

As for the Ashton Manual: it is not, as it is sometimes characterised, 'out of date'. It only would be out of date if there was better, newer research - I don't think that is the case. Yes, there are weaknesses within Ashton's research (there was no double-blind trial - the gold standard), but since no-one was/is willing to fund the research, this is hardly Ashton's fault. Ashton was a GP (who ran a benzodiazepine withdrawal clinic), a pharmacologist, and a pharmacology researcher. This makes her hugely more qualified than nearly anyone else who has published on the subject.

Sorry to disagree about Wikipedia being a good source on health issues, maybe on so,e few select issues is a possibility Gary Null , and a good sized group of researchers, have recently done and a large investigation on Wikipedia that appears on Null's podcasts in the last few months I have some notes for which exact shows those are if anyone is interested

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When I first read about kindling occurring from benzodiazepine withdrawal, it was quite apparent that the evidence was very weak. It was not that there was evidence against it - just no good evidence (either way). I am not sure if that position has changed very much. There is anecdotal evidence, but that is very difficult to evaluate. At best it indicates that research is required, but is totally unreliable in of itself. Because benzodiazepines and alcohol act somewhat similarly upon GABA receptors, I think there is treason to suspect that benzodiazepines might cause kindling effects in some individuals. I think, though, if there is an effect, it probably affects a small number of people. But this is no more than speculation. I think it warrants research, but as far as I can tell, no one can reliably claim that this effect from use of benzodiazepines is real or not. Certainly, we should avoid the expectation of such an effect. Assuming that the effect is real, I think it would be firmly established by now if the effect was commonplace.

 

 

 

Key phrases:

 

...no one can reliably claim that this effect from use of benzodiazepines is real

 

...we should avoid the expectation of such an effect

 

...which was really the point of my reply on Staz's "resigning my membership" post.

Sorry to disagree about Wikipedia being a good source on health issues, maybe on so,e few select issues is a possibility Gary Null , and a good sized group of researchers, have recently done and a large investigation on Wikipedia that appears on Null's podcasts in the last few months I have some notes for which exact shows those are if anyone is interested

 

Well, that's why I italicised "starting point". Wikipedia standards dictate that the article be neutral and attempt consensus. It also requires of editors that they reference all materials (no original content). Of course, the articles are only as good as those writing/editing them, but going to the source material (referenced from Wikipedia) is what I'd recommend, and then look further afield. The good thing about Wikipedia is that there is material on nearly any subject you care to lookup.

When I first read about kindling occurring from benzodiazepine withdrawal, it was quite apparent that the evidence was very weak. It was not that there was evidence against it - just no good evidence (either way). I am not sure if that position has changed very much. There is anecdotal evidence, but that is very difficult to evaluate. At best it indicates that research is required, but is totally unreliable in of itself. Because benzodiazepines and alcohol act somewhat similarly upon GABA receptors, I think there is treason to suspect that benzodiazepines might cause kindling effects in some individuals. I think, though, if there is an effect, it probably affects a small number of people. But this is no more than speculation. I think it warrants research, but as far as I can tell, no one can reliably claim that this effect from use of benzodiazepines is real or not. Certainly, we should avoid the expectation of such an effect. Assuming that the effect is real, I think it would be firmly established by now if the effect was commonplace.

 

Key phrases:

 

...no one can reliably claim that this effect from use of benzodiazepines is real

 

...we should avoid the expectation of such an effect

 

...which was really the point of my reply on Staz's "resigning my membership" post.

 

So, what is your point?

 

The first line of my post:

 

I don't mean to single-out Staz's post - just taking advantage of the (linked) mention and general disagreements/speculation surrounding the subject of 'kindling'.

 

Or, did you think that I thought Staz's views on kindling are far removed from my own? If so, that is not what I intended. I was just taking advantage of this thread to clarify where I (and, possibly, by extension) BB stands on this issue. My view is somewhat skeptical of benzodiazepine kindling (though, I remain open), and that the matter warrants research. There is no BB policy on the subject of kindling. There are, though, some general guidelines which affect some of the discussions which have been taking place at BB on this matter. I'll reference them again:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=25837.0

 

 

So, what is your point?

 

 

My point is...

 

"...no one can reliably claim that this effect from use of benzodiazepines is real"

 

and

 

"......we should avoid the expectation of such an effect"

 

Sadly, IMO, much of the good about BB is offset by adding to peoples uncertainty and anxiety by "warning" them of unsubstantiated and improbable conditions that they then believe will make withdrawal even more difficult than it already is.

 

( I genuinely applaud your realistic, objective appraisal of "kindling effect" and the current state of the research.  So I used it to confirm what I have frequently posted in the past.)

 

 

Where did the concept come from? And why is it so commonly spoke about?

Where did the concept come from? And why is it so commonly spoke about?

 

It is a thinly researched idea, almost entirely related to alcohol withdrawal and alcoholism.  It gets talked about so much here like several other improbable concepts, unsubstantiated ideas.

Where did the concept come from? And why is it so commonly spoke about?

 

It is a thinly researched idea, almost entirely related to alcohol withdrawal and alcoholism.  It gets talked about so much here like several other improbable concepts, unsubstantiated ideas.

 

But why is it so commonly spoke about by such a wide range of people? Pretty much everything to do with withdrawal is improbable and unsubstantiated so of course it will get talked about.

Where did the concept come from? And why is it so commonly spoke about?

 

It is a thinly researched idea, almost entirely related to alcohol withdrawal and alcoholism.  It gets talked about so much here like several other improbable concepts, unsubstantiated ideas.

 

But why is it so commonly spoke about by such a wide range of people? Pretty much everything to do with withdrawal is improbable and unsubstantiated so of course it will get talked about.

 

I've replied a bit about this in the other thread - it is not a concept promoted by BB - but some of our members do do this. The idea of benzodiazepine kindling is speculative. I don't think that such speculation is totally unwarranted, but it really should be made clear that it is speculation. I think it plausible enough to warrant research. If the effect is real, it would seem probable to me that it is outlier territory. Of course, I am guessing (speculating).

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=212445.msg2737559#msg2737559

 

I think I (or one of the team) should probably lock one of these threads - this is causing confusion. I'll leave it for now.

Course, I was just wandering if something was so implausible then why have so many people claimed to experience it? I'm just interested. I have no experience in it, I was on benzos then I was off, so there was no repeat or anything like that.

Sorry to disagree about Wikipedia being a good source on health issues, maybe on so,e few select issues is a possibility Gary Null , and a good sized group of researchers, have recently done and a large investigation on Wikipedia that appears on Null's podcasts in the last few months I have some notes for which exact shows those are if anyone is interested

 

Well, that's why I italicised "starting point". Wikipedia standards dictate that the article be neutral and attempt consensus. It also requires of editors that they reference all materials (no original content). Of course, the articles are only as good as those writing/editing them, but going to the source material (referenced from Wikipedia) is what I'd recommend, and then look further afield. The good thing about Wikipedia is that there is material on nearly any subject you care to lookup.

 

Actually the debate is whether the ideas of neutrality and consensus are being adhered to, rather than those being involved doing the best they can. In other words not democratic and consensual

Sorry to disagree about Wikipedia being a good source on health issues, maybe on so,e few select issues is a possibility Gary Null , and a good sized group of researchers, have recently done and a large investigation on Wikipedia that appears on Null's podcasts in the last few months I have some notes for which exact shows those are if anyone is interested

I'm interested but maybe we should do that in a PM.  Don't want to hijack this thread.

SS

Sorry to disagree about Wikipedia being a good source on health issues, maybe on so,e few select issues is a possibility Gary Null , and a good sized group of researchers, have recently done and a large investigation on Wikipedia that appears on Null's podcasts in the last few months I have some notes for which exact shows those are if anyone is interested

 

Well, that's why I italicised "starting point". Wikipedia standards dictate that the article be neutral and attempt consensus. It also requires of editors that they reference all materials (no original content). Of course, the articles are only as good as those writing/editing them, but going to the source material (referenced from Wikipedia) is what I'd recommend, and then look further afield. The good thing about Wikipedia is that there is material on nearly any subject you care to lookup.

 

Actually the debate is whether the ideas of neutrality and consensus are being adhered to, rather than those being involved doing the best they can. In other words not democratic and consensual

 

Yes, that's to what I was alluding (a failure in adherence to standards) when I wrote of Wikipedia editors, "Of course, the articles are only as good as those writing/editing them", and recommending that our members go to the (referenced) source material and reading further afield too.

 

I accept the criticism of Wikipedia, but I think it remains a worthwhile project, irrespective of shortcomings in individual articles and of particular editors. If you expect Wikipedia to be authoritative, you surely will be disappointed. If, however, you think of it as useful starting point for most subjects, your experience likely will be more satisfying.

 

 

So, what is your point?

 

 

My point is...

 

"...no one can reliably claim that this effect from use of benzodiazepines is real"

 

and

 

"......we should avoid the expectation of such an effect"

 

Sadly, IMO, much of the good about BB is offset by adding to peoples uncertainty and anxiety by "warning" them of unsubstantiated and improbable conditions that they then believe will make withdrawal even more difficult than it already is.

 

( I genuinely applaud your realistic, objective appraisal of "kindling effect" and the current state of the research.  So I used it to confirm what I have frequently posted in the past.)

 

Sorry for the late response. I see. Thank you for the clarification.