Neurogenesis/BDNF not always good. Better after taper than during?

I wish I had the article to share.  Supposedly neurogenesis isn't an absolutely always good thing, depending on what environmental stressors are in your life. For example, if your brain starts to change and grow new pathways, it locks onto where you are currently. So if tapering and destabilized and then starting to exercise, theoretically we could be causing our brain to think the destabilized state is the new norm. I'm wondering if it's best to wait until the drug is completely out of the system before doing things that cause more neurogenesis.

 

I'm not against exercise at all, just throwing this out there to see what others think? I've always heard that if you can handle it, exercise is nothing but beneficial to someone getting off benzos.

 

Here's a great thread about exercising while in withdrawal started by bart: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=77609.0

I think the catecholamines have a lot to do with whether or not a person can handle exercise after benzos. If a person tends to have adrenaline rushes or excess anxiety, it's best to go very slowly. Maybe start off walking a bit. Some people have a problem with their heart accelerating too quickly while exercising. I've noticed some people on Klonopin fare worse than those on Valium. I remember wanting badly to exercise and doing yoga, working with weights, and then walking. While walking, I suddenly felt one side of my face going numb. I stopped in my tracks because I was scared I was having a stroke. It didn't last long, but the message I got was that I was doing too much for my body to take. Benzos harm so many nerves in the body that we have to be vigilant about exercise, work up in slow increments. Some people can handle a lot more than others.

Question time? if one exercised before BZD's, would the neural pathways still be present? If so, it would take the same pathway -  much less energy to re-open than build a new network wouldn't it? Whereas, learning a new type of exercise such as fencing say, where it hadn't been done before, would become the new network construction? Thus, wouldn't it be advisable to suggest that those who exercise return to familiar forms while tapering and learning new types of exercise post withdrawal? Of course, I wonder does this neurogenisis account for brain plasticity?  

Trust, I agree. It's not just exercise. There are so many factors. I think it's more likely on a high dose of K while tapering, then on a small dose.

Chronic stress etc. can do the same.

 

I think that serious aberrant neurogenesis is rare. Likely, I've got it.

I really hope you are rightLiberty.

 

I feel like my every aberrant perception etc is reinforcing several derranged neural pathways.

I am of a mind it is a combo of aberrant neurogenesis and catecholamines problems for me.  Exercise ruined my gabapentin  taper after my short benzo fiasco.  Adrenaline and cortisol with a substantial seasoning of neuropathic pain. 

 

The benzo diner;  withdrawal served all day, 24/7.  Drop in for our protracted specials. 

 

On a serious note, I've read a pretty good paper that makes the point about BDNF facilitating LTP in pain.  In short, it facilitates painful stimuli becoming chronic pain.  So, yes, NGF and BDNF can have negative consequences , too.

 

-RST

Interesting responses everyone. So is there a consensus about this? I had no idea negative neuro-adapting was called "aberrant"? Should we avoid anything new when tapering?

 

 

Interesting responses everyone. So is there a consensus about this? I had no idea negative neuro-adapting was called "aberrant"? Should we avoid anything new when tapering?

 

 

Well, this a new topic for me and I'm not sure I understand it well enough to agree or to disagree. I know I can get so caught up in waiting for yet another shoe to drop that I make my problems worse than they needed to be. I'm not urging anyone to do or not to do what they feel may be harmful. But, doing what I can, when I can makes me feel better than not (just in case) not trying. It's like driving once you commit to a turn stopping is the best way to ensure being struck. Kind of simplistic I know but...

I was unable to exercise for months.  When able to return to it, it has only helped me (including strenuous exercise).  I'm not interested in debating, just sharing my truth.

Neurogenesis in the adult brain exists on an acute time scale and any new neurons created will die off due to sensitivity to excitability and the only way to keep these new neurons alive is by enriching your environment and creating the conditions for their survival. My method is stacking compounds and exercise/ cannabis. So any transient changes should be of no concern. To create the scaffolding of neurogenesis takes hard work and a positive attitude and the right supplements for people like us. On the other hand if you’re sick and if you cant exercise there may be something else wrong with you. That really makes me sad.

I want to add that neurogenisis is still beneficial despite if it is temporary. Just because these new neurons die off the new connection will remain and you can keep trying. Don’t give up and make excuses based on fear and conjecture. You are fighting a battle against yourself and your mind and it knowsall your weaknesses.

Neurogenesis in the adult brain exists on an acute time scale and any new neurons created will die off due to sensitivity to excitability and the only way to keep these new neurons alive is by enriching your environment and creating the conditions for their survival. My method is stacking compounds and exercise/ cannabis. So any transient changes should be of no concern. To create the scaffolding of neurogenesis takes hard work and a positive attitude and the right supplements for people like us. On the other hand if you’re sick and if you cant exercise there may be something else wrong with you. That really makes me sad.

 

Mamoot,

 

What sups do you take?  What do you mean "something else wrong with you"? Can you give an example? I think many people (not all) on here say that exercise revs them up.

When I exercised while tapering benzos and other stuff, I just walked. I didn't do anything else. I took brisk walks at around 5 miles a day. I wasn't really focused on neurogenesis while tapering benzos and the other stuff, but walking helped me cope. I used alot of stuff. Here is a list of things I took along the way: baicalin, magnolia bark extract, afobazole, picamilon, aniracetam, coffee, cannabis, memantine, BPC-157, Semax, P21, DSIP, GHK-Cu, NAC, NA-R-ALA, ALCAR, Lion's Mane, psilocybin, DMT, ketamine, PQQ, fish oil, polygala tenuifolia, tianeptine, CBD, CBG..lemon balm, Longvida. Keep in mind that this isn't a stack, it's just a list of stuff that I can remember right now.

 

Try baicalin and magnolia bark extract with some CBD while tapering. They modulate benzo and GABA receptors safely and have neuro protective effects and lots of health benefits. Don't listen to other members who say to take nothing and wait it out. If I did that I wouldn't be alive right now. I was also on gabapentin and phenibut (or baclofen), and also Suboxone while tapering Librium. I was actually tapering everything at the same time at one point. I was so miserable. I may be mentally tough when it comes to getting some light exercise, like long walks. I never ran or jogged. I just did what I could.

Thanks for replying. I did weights and cardio two days ago and am in a wave--but could also be me not stabilizing yet from the last cut about a month ago. I think walking would have been a better choice.

 

I'll have to look into CBD- I hear positive and negative things about it. I know there's no THC in it, but I'm the guy who gets paranoid when he smokes, so I wonder if I have something off with my canabanoid receptors. did you notice any benefit from BPC-157, NAC,  or memantine? I notice some of the other sups you mention affect GABA-A

 

 

 

 

Out of everything, I think memantine was the most helpful. I still use it and went up to as high as 5mg recently. Currently, I'm cycling off it, which is something I do now when I hold on tapering. Cycling off memantine helps it work better. I notice benefit from everything I take usually but it can go the other way too, and I'll have some type of negative reaction from taking something.

 

Baicalin, is a flavonoid which modulates GABAA receptors through a similar mechanism as benzos but it has neuroprotective and anti-inflammatory effect. I'm thinking it helps and I don't get negative reactions to taking it. Magnolia bark extract contains honokiol, a compound that looks similar to propofol which also acts on GABAA safely. These extracts have alot of exciting health benefits and anti-cancer properties. They are very helpful while coming off benzos and to mitigate PAWS. Most people are too afraid to use them but I assure you it won't set you back and very likely may even help your brain heal from benzos. Also, rather than reinstating a benzo it just makes more sense to use things like this. I'm not suggesting using this stuff indefinitely or anything.

 

I think edible cannabis is the way to go here, and eat small amounts so you don't get too paranoid. The negative side effects from cannabis are far outweighed by the benefits if you use the right amounts. Cannabinoid receptors modulate glutamate receptors and help with withdrawal. As far as taking plant based stuff that affects GABAA, just see how you react to it and give it a chance. I've taken all sorts of stuff that affects GABA and nothing bad happened to me. I wonder sometimes if it would be different if I wasn't on gabapentin and baclofen still. I doubt it though. Gabapentin doesn't really solve benzo withdrawal from my experience.

 

As far as exercise, walking is your best bet or if you have access to a swimming pool, I would use that but pace yourself....swimming can cause alot of fatigue...for me. It really helps though. Going in the sauna and swimming helps.

Just thought about this...what about sleeping well during a taper (7-8 hours)? I know many will see this as a silly question. We need sleep. I'm not knocking it. The general consensus is that sleep helps us heal after cuts but could sleep also potentiate neurogenesis at the wrong time (tapering) and actually impede our recovery via abberant neurogenesis? Perhaps for some people they should hold off on really good sleep if they are able to, and wait until after jumping/steeping off and acute...or vice versa, not sleeping well will do more harm than good and impede positive neurogenesis.

 

Is anyone familiar with Dynamic Neural Retraining System? It’s for people with lymbic dysfunction and supposed to initiate neurogenesis. However, the people who use it have CFS, MS, fibromyalgia, food and chemical sensitivities etc. If someone is dx’ed with one of these, it would make sense that they too should avoid it, but it seems to work for them. The rewiring is (supposedly) working during their illness. Perhaps because it's for someone with a chronic illness it works, considering a chronic illness is mostly static, unlike benzo withdrawal and recovery where changes are being made, albiet at varying paces-- fast or slower (acute, protracted, LTP etc)

 

Exercise seems to only help me