Degree of Benzo Problem a Factor

Kicking any bad habit is a cause for celebration.  However, is it not fair to consider the amount of a benzo that one is hooked on before tapering downward? The effort is not always equal by any means I believe.

Jackson,

 

I am not sure if you are responding to something someone said...or just making a general comment....?

 

I think Benzos are tough to kick...no matter what amount of benzo you are on....for someone on .5mg to kick .5mg could be quite the same as someone on 2mg trying to kick 2mg of the same dose....both people are trying to reduce 100 percent of the dose to zero......

 

I don't think we should celebrate any more or less based on what amount of benzo someone is one...nor should we point at someone on higher amounts and say, "Wow, how did you get that high?"....

 

TC

I would not totally disagree but if a person who is addicted to 1 mg of Ativan per day or less for example (same as 10 mgs of valium or less) is offering advice or success stories to someone coming off say 2 mgs of Klonopin such as yourself (40 mgs of valium equiv.) just is not that valid.  One must look at circumstances when making judgements and suggestions if we are trying to help and understand folks with benzo issues.

OK, I'll bite.  One thing I know from experience and reading is that benzos affect folks in different ways and that people have different sensitivities.  So, I would agree that, in general, it might be harder for someone to taper from a relatively large dose than a smaller one, or also harder for someone who has been on benzos for years versus weeks.  However, some people are very sensitive to these drugs and can have just as hard a time even though they were short-time users or on relatively small dosages.  Thus, I don't think we can make a valid generalization that people who have taken larger doses or have longer useage times are necessarily going to have a harder time than those who have used lesser amounts or for shorter periods.  Therefore, I think we can all offer valid advice and that any of our experiences can be helpful for anyone trying to get off benzos.  Benzos are odd beasts in many regards and I don't think we can really make such distinctions as you suggest.  I think we are all in the same boat to one degree or another so rather than try and find ways to split us up into classes of users I think it more productive to just try and be one helpful familly of sufferers who share some common elements.  You, of course, are entitled to disagree but that's how I see it.  You seemed to want opinions so I hope I haven't been out of line or seemed to have attacked you in any way.  Its just the way I view it.

 

Be well,

 

John

My taper was effortless. I was making big cuts and holding for only 5 days. Didn't have an issue until 3 days later and 3.5 months later just now beginning to feel normal. I only took it for 4 months AS NEEDED and still got hooked. Some weeks I'd only take 1/2 mg. I've seen people on lower dosages than mine for shorter periods suffer tremendously and feel fine as they got lower in their taper, and jump off and do great.

 

I know of someone that only took a low amount of Ativan for only 3 weeks and had to fight tooth and nail to quit. I also know someone that took it for a year and CT and never had any issues.

 

It affects everyone differently and yes, I will say it seems those on larger doses for longer periods seem to have more problems kicking it, and with post withdrawal symptoms as well.

 

Anyone with any experience withdrawing from a benzo can offer valid advice, IMO.

Many factors involved here in terms of what makes wd harder. From what I've have gathered here is my opinion on the matter:

 

-Taper or CT (Frequent smaller cuts easier than large cuts or CT)

-Duration of use (Longer use probably means more significant neuro-adaptation aka harder to get off)

-Dosage (Does not seem to matter as much as duration but makes sense to be harder for higher dosage)

-High potency benzo=harder (Klonopin, Ativan, or Xanax) or Low potency=easier (Librium, Valium)

-How much support available  in the form of understanding friends, family, support groups, doctors, etc (The more the better)

-Reason for taking benzo (I read that people with anxiety/panic disorder may have harder time?)

-Caffeine and alcohol use? (Most agree these only make the journey harder)

-Diet (High protein diets can possibly help in benzo wd because protein is key ingredient for neurotransmitters? Protein may also have calming effect on anxiety)

-Exercise (Strongly associated with improvements on stress, anxiety,depression, and mood)

-Lifestyle (Working or not? How much stress in relationships, money, job, health, etc?)

-Coping skills (What has person been through in life that may have helped prepare them for such a long and uncomfortable journey that is benzo withdrawal?)

-Age (Younger people may have easier time in wd)

 

All of these factors differ in each of us...so it's almost impossible to know how hard or easy one has it in wd compared to another. Just like most things in life this saying applies... "who knows what it's like to walk around in another person shoes"

 

 

I was on 2mg Valium for many years (more than I want to mention) and I kicked that to the curb pretty easy...

Now I have been on .5-1mg Ativan 4-5 years and doing the taper and it's a battle...

 

 

I would not totally disagree but if a person who is addicted to 1 mg of Ativan per day or less for example (same as 10 mgs of valium or less) is offering advice or success stories to someone coming off say 2 mgs of Klonopin such as yourself (40 mgs of valium equiv.) just is not that valid.  One must look at circumstances when making judgements and suggestions if we are trying to help and understand folks with benzo issues.

 

Jackson,

 

That is a good point..there are numerous factors....to consider for sure....including why one was put on a benzo to begin with...for instance, I was put on K for sleep issues....not anxiety issues..and I think this may explain why I have not experienced any anxiety during withdrawal......I have btw experienced some sleep issues... ...so I think you have a point there.....I think we can also state with pretty much certainty that taper vs. c/t, taper rate, whether or not there are other drugs involved,  and many other factors should be considered too....

 

I think what we should avoid doing is disregarding someone's advice just because they were on a "small dose"..I am not saying you are doing that....not at all....I am just saying....it is tough no matter what..but certainly tougher for some than others depending on other circumstances...

 

TC

 

Jamie,

 

You make alot of great points with your post.  I really think there are alot of factors that play into how someone's withdrawal may go...and you listed several of them that I had overlooked....and I bet...we could come up with a huge list of things that factor into how someone is able to handle a taper and then the recovery period....

 

I do want to say that anyone that is able to kick this stuff..regardless of dosage...is a warrior in my book....this probably the toughest thing many of us have had to do.....regardless of how smooth or hard the withdrawal is...it is just such a long, drawn out process...it becomes very tiresome...

 

TC

Interesting listening to all of these thoughts even though some amounts that people are taking at the max really are minute by any standard.  Certainly I am no expert and have not been that successful to date with benzos (relatively fine with cigs, booze, food, excess work, gambling issues in the past) but I just am a wimp about insomnia and do have anxiety concerns, but good luck to every one trying to succeed - large or small doses. 

Jackson,

 

As someone who was put on Klonopin for insomnia....I completely understand your concerns about sleep...my sleep really started to get messed up when I hit the .28mg mark...I had a really rough few weeks...things are better now...but not great..and it is something I still am trying to work through.....

 

Funny how these little green monsters were prescribed for sleep..yet when withdrawing...it is tougher to sleep...had I only known then what I know now....live and learn I guess

 

I wish you continued success with your taper...

 

TC

My two cents here:

 

My mother, who is overweight, sick, never exercises, and is chronically depressed, came off of 2 mg xanax after a few years by doing a 1 week taper.  She had relatively minor symptoms which were completely gone after about 6 weeks. 

 

My close friend and business partner, who chain smokes, does not exercise, drinks too much, and eats like hell, took 10 - 20 mg of valium every day for a year, stopped cold turkey and had NO withdrawal symptoms at all.  He has been surprised that I am having difficulties.

 

I exercise vigorously every day, meditate, do yoga, eat an immaculate diet, etc, took 10 mg of valium per day and this process is kicking the crap out of me.  Granted, I took these meds for 3 years and had a less-than-ideal taper, but all the other stuff I am doing seem to be having little to no effect on my healing.

 

I have exactly the same troublesome question ,I know people that take Xanax , act ,feel and go on with their lives totally Ok. Know somebody that c/t Ativan after 2 years of use with absolutely no problems. But here I am going trough this mess now for almost 2 years and trying so hard , but w/d's like crazy . I think  we are different and it must be a reason why some people just have problems and others don't. More reason to make this drugs carefully prescribed and make the physicians more aware of the profound damage they could cause. I am always puzzled by how this happens to some people and some other people seem to be immune to it.

You all are soooo nice I can't believe it.  This is why I like this forum, because of all the nice people.  

 

Jackson,

 

I don't look to see who wins the award for biggest addict (which you seem to be in contension for if that's what you like), when I am looking for some support, but what I will say is I kind of understand where you are coming from Jackson.  However, you were not nice.  Your comments were hurtful to some very nice people on this forum and I was actually kind of surprised that nobody reacted a little stronger to your post.  If you only want responses from individuals who meet your "highly addictive" standand, then only read their posts, ignore the rest, but don't slam people that are just trying to be supportive.  

I just let it go if I see someone is being insensitive or cold about something. I just think "they don't feel good and I can certainly relate to that" and just let it be water under the bridge...unless someone downright slammed someone then I might say something but thankfully I haven't seen that, yet.

You all are soooo nice I can't believe it.  This is why I like this forum, because of all the nice people.  

 

Yes, this is a very polite and considerate forum.  I don't visit many of these types of sites but two others I sometimes visit are far less considerate and populated by some truly not-nice folk.  This site is a blessing in many ways and we are all lucky to have it and to be members of its family of buddies.

 

I don't look to see who wins the award for biggest addict (which you seem to be in contension for if that's what you like), when I am looking for some support, but what I will say is I kind of understand where you are coming from Jackson.  However, you were not nice.  Your comments were hurtful to some very nice people on this forum and I was actually kind of surprised that nobody reacted a little stronger to your post.  

 

I didn't think Jackson was exactly hurtful (at least I didn't feel hurt) but just a bit off the mark.  My comments and those of others pointed out that while dosage and length of use are certainly factors in taper difficulty many people who were short-time users or who took relatively small dosages have a very hard time.  We should all try and support each other and anyone who is in need regardless of the circumstances and work to not be judgemental.  Benzo w/d is hard enough without beating each other up.

 

I wish Jackson and everybody else the best.

 

John

I didn't see anything hurtful in Jacksons post either. It's sad that a discussion like this had to be moved to ''chewing the fat''. I don't understand the competing remarks. What's to win? I'm here for answers and support because I trust this place more than my Dr. So I think every question, every statement should at least be given a chance before being thrown into ''the fat''. I don't think you guys gave Jack a fair shot.

Hi Hannah,

 

I moved the thread to this board because it seemed more of a discussion, rather than a request for support.  If Jackson feels it should be moved back to General Withdrawal Support, I'd be happy to do that. 

 

I think discussion of this type is healthy, I didn't see anything wrong with any of the comments I've seen.  Moving it wasn't a censure of any kind, I was just me looking to keep the forum organized.

 

Pam

Thanks Pam, I just felt like it got off course before any discussion really got started. I'd like to read others thoughts on it.  What differences are there in being on benzos days , months compared to years? That's all I read in Jacks posts.    This is what I wanted to say. Being on benzos 11+ years is a big chunk out of a lifetime. No it doesn't make me addict of the year, but it does leave me wondering, what am I supposed to do now. I've forgotten life any other way.  So that's worth discussion as far as I'm concerned. As far as W/D goes ,if you've been thru just one hour of severe that's enough. The fear of it coming back, alone ,will keep us on our knees. There's no difference in W/d. I'm stumbling thru this just like anyone else. I want to know everything.

LIghten up Washington.  The value of this forum, for one thing, is not because folks are nice.  It is that it gives tips and support on dealing with a serious issue - Benzos.  Being nice helps but not the main plus in my estimation.

 

As for my comments, I acknowledged that there are two sides to my blog.  Consider this, although not exactly the same thing (food/benzos), although weight control is an extremely tough deal for many.  Have you ever heard someone who could stand to lose 10 lbs. telling a group of folks that include individuals 30 to 50 lbs overweight how they themselves need to lay off desert for a couple of weeks as their clothes are getting a tad tight?  

 

I certainly am no expert on kicking benzos, I sure would not be going through all this expense and suffering if I had the answers.  By the way, listing my addictions were not to impress all of you.  These are hardly badges of honor.

 

Jackson

As I said, I wasn't hurt or angered by your posts Jackson, nor do I think you were trying to impress anyone with your listing of other addictions.  Many add these to their signature lines as just a way to describe who they are and what they have been/are going through.

 

I see your point and understand your weight example, but I still think benzo w/d is in a bit different category.  If one person has been on benzos for five years, starts tapering, and is suffering  and another person has been on benzos for only a month or so, starts tapering, and is suffering I don't really see a difference.  Many relative short-time users (or low-dosage users) often suffer just as hard a taper as those who used for a long time or in larger doses.  Its just the nature of these drugs and I think its an important thing to keep in mind.  I don't think it is to our collective advantage to make distinctions based on length of use or dosage and create classes of sufferers.

 

With regard to being nice, I do think its equally as important as the good technical support provided here.  Of course we all need tips and technical help and that's one reason we come here.  However, benzo w/d is often a very lonely street and those struggling with it are often not understood by friends, family, or doctors.  So, we come here as much for love and support as we do for answers on how to structure a taper.  This is a very well mannered and administered site and that makes folks feel safe in pouring out their emotions and the personal details of their lives.  When suffering something like benzo w/d having such a resource is of major importance and I think just as important as the tips and factual info.

 

I think you brought up a good point of discussion and am glad to have had the opportunity to express my opinions.  Reading between the lines of your post, I get the impression that you may feel a bit under attack.  I certainly didn't mean any of my comments in that way but just honest answers to your questions.  I can also see Pam's point of moving the post.  That's why there are so many sub-forums; so that we can keep things more organized, which helps folks find the right place to look for what they need.  We're all in this together and I, for one, support you even if you don't agree with me.  That's what a true buddy does.  I wish you the best with beating the benzo beast.

 

John

 

I didn't see anything hurtful in Jacksons post either. It's sad that a discussion like this had to be moved to ''chewing the fat''. I don't understand the competing remarks. What's to win? I'm here for answers and support because I trust this place more than my Dr. So I think every question, every statement should at least be given a chance before being thrown into ''the fat''. I don't think you guys gave Jack a fair shot.

 

Hello Hannah,

 

This board is not some kind of punishment area for deliquint threads, or meant to signify unimportant topics. True, it is not a primary board (primary boards cover taper advice and withdrawal support), but non-support orientated benzodiazpine discussions too have their place and are of great interest to many members.

 

We decided that non-support benzodiazepine discussions deserved their own board. They tended to be posted rather haphazardly around the forum, and would quite often end up the on the General Withdrawal Support board. Sometimes these threads can be quite heated, not least because the discussion is often subjective in nature. Often, such discussions are not conducive to "Withdrawal Support".

 

I'm from the UK, and although we know the phrase "chewing the fat", it is not really a British expression (I assume it to be an American phrase). To me, it means tossing around ideas - maybe it means something different and the present title gives the wrong impression? Or maybe it is just not a great title!? We often change board names and descriptions, especially newly created boards as we feel our way around. Forums are very dynamic places, so I do not expect to know how boards will develop: we react and develop the forum as we go along. I certainly would appreciate feedback from you (and others) about the this board's title, description, and posting guidelines (posted in the sticky thread at the top of the board), or about any other part of the forum.

 

Please start a thread on the Feedback board with suggestions and ideas for the forum. Honestly, feedback is greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks.

Your observations are spot on Colin.  "Chewing the fat" is US vernacular and might not be understood by persons not from the US.  Being from the SE US, where I believe this phrase originated, it likely refers to the frequent jaw movement needed to chew fat (which would include gristle) and to talk at length.  I think perhaps a re-name is in order. Maybe a poll would be the best way to choose a new name, but barring that then I would suggest something along the lines of "topics for discussion" or "opinions and debate" or such.  Its your site so its your call in the end.  I will say that I agree that the sub-boards are just as important as the main ones but this wouldn't be the opinion of many, I'd guess. There's also the issue of the placement of the board titles: the sub-boards are way down the page and most folk will only see what is immediately in their view.  That may not have a good solution but it is an issue.  You can clearly see that there are way fewere posts on the sub-forums and the number decreases with the distance from the top of the list.

 

OK, I know you can't please everybody and there's lots of other (perhaps more important) issues to deal with so I'll leave it at this.  I just thought I'd offer what I hope might be a few helpful observations.

 

John

 

Your observations are spot on Colin.  "Chewing the fat" is US vernacular and might not be understood by persons not from the US.  Being from the SE US, where I believe this phrase originated, it likely refers to the frequent jaw movement needed to chew fat (which would include gristle) and to talk at length.

 

Hi John,

 

As I said, I'm from the UK, and I know the phrase (and I think most people from the UK know it too), so I assumed it would be OK for general use.

 

I think perhaps a re-name is in order. Maybe a poll would be the best way to choose a new name, but barring that then I would suggest something along the lines of "topics for discussion" or "opinions and debate" or such.  Its your site so its your call in the end.

 

I won't go with a poll - I generally dislike forum polls, especially for things that influence what might affect consistency (and cause greater confusion). I'll have a think to see if I can come up a snappy (suggestive) title. Purely descriptive titles are fine too (I'll take your suggestions under advisement), but sometimes they sound clumsy. We'll come up with something.

 

I will say that I agree that the sub-boards are just as important as the main ones but this wouldn't be the opinion of many, I'd guess. There's also the issue of the placement of the board titles: the sub-boards are way down the page and most folk will only see what is immediately in their view.  That may not have a good solution but it is an issue.  You can clearly see that there are way fewere posts on the sub-forums and the number decreases with the distance from the top of the list.

 

Well, I understand your reasoning (about lower-down boards not attracting as much attention - and I'm sure it is true), but, generally speaking, we deliberately place less active board further down the forum anyway. There is probably an elemant of self-fulfilling prophesy about this. It is unavoidable.

 

Technically, these are not "sub-boards". They are placed into broad "categories" (such as Planning Your Taper, or The Nexus), but all board titles are plainly visible on the forum main view. "Sub-boards" are boards-within-boards (like the Test Board within the Technical Support board). The forum used to make much use of sub-boards (I like such an arrangement), but we found that many members, especially less compuer-savvy members) would miss the sub-boards. So, the forum is now much longer than it used to be (virtually no use of sub-boards), but it is now better utilised and more easily navigated by more members.

 

OK, I know you can't please everybody and there's lots of other (perhaps more important) issues to deal with so I'll leave it at this.  I just thought I'd offer what I hope might be a few helpful observations.

 

John

 

Your input is always welcome and is greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks.

Funny the direction this thread took.  Ok, Jackson maybe I came off a little harsh and I apologize for that (and to everyone else that felt I was too harsh on you as well if they were offended), but maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say.  So let's clarify.  What I took from you post was that you were trying to say that if I were to post something and ask for advice and I had a serious benzo addition problem (say 3MG or more for 4 years) and somebody who had a lesser benzo addiction problem (say they were only on 1MG for 6 weeks) then they have no business replying or giving advice to my post?  Is this what you were trying to say?