Taper 5-10 % every 7-14 days down to 20% or original dose? Then slower?

I've heard is suggested to taper at 5-10 % every 7-14 days.  Would those percentages be from the original dose or the one you tapered down to?  I also heard that when you are higher on the benzo's that your cuts can be higher without the effect you when you get to the lower doses and so you can make larger cuts when higher up.  I saw it suggested to cut 5-10% every 7-14 days until you reach 20% of your original dose and then start a slower, more micro-tapering plan.  Is this so?

1)  I would start with a microtaper from the very beginning.  (I wish that's what I had done  )

 

2)  Base your cut rate on the dose you're on when you start your taper.

 

3)  I would stay at the same rate as long as its working.  If you do a microtaper, you will get "advance warning" if you need to change your taper.

Hi LynnM

 

I've heard is suggested to taper at 5-10 % every 7-14 days.  Would those percentages be from the original dose or the one you tapered down to?

This is an excellent question few people appear to worry about. The answer is that you can of course do both. In the Benzo Taper Plan application each of the two can be achieved like following:

- If you use the Fixed Quantity reduction (field Quantity filled, field Percent disabled) then the percent displayed in the disabled field has been calculated on the original dose

- If you use the Fixed Percent reduction (field Percent filled, field Quantity disabled) then the percentages will be from the one you tapered down to. Actually in this case the percent remains unchanged throughout the whole taper course.

 

I also heard that when you are higher on the benzo's that your cuts can be higher without the effect you when you get to the lower doses and so you can make larger cuts when higher up.

When you are at a higher dose, say 1 mg of K per day and you cut 0.1 mg this results in a reduction of 10% (0.1 / 1). It is within the recommended range of reduction and you feel no symptoms. But after a few months you come down to 0.5 mg of K. Now the same cut of 0.1 mg will result in a reduction of 20% (0.1 / 0.5) that is largely beyond the recommended limits and it is not a surprise that you start to feel symptoms. So to answer your question in a different way: you can cut 'large' at the beginning but you'll need to lower the cut when lower doses to avoid symptoms.

 

I saw it suggested to cut 5-10% every 7-14 days until you reach 20% of your original dose and then start a slower, more micro-tapering plan.  Is this so?

I'm not sure I have seen this information previously. There is nothing that I know of that prevents a slow and gentle taper from the beginning.

 

Hope it helps.

 

I am assuming, Jim Hawk, that you are referring to a chart somewhere that I can enter my information and it will calculate for me?

 

I didn't know if there was an advantage of one method over another.

 

Since I really dislike the idea of microtapering from such a high dose that I am on.  I would like to get as low as possible before the long and tedious microtapering.  I hear that even while microtapering there is often a lot of pain and suffering.  I have some friends who verify this.  I know each individual is different.  But I had always been on a very low dose from the beginning until recently while following the advice of a psych who insisted that my problem was that I was never at a high enough, therapeutic dose, therefore that is why I have always had such pain and problems being on it and trying to come off of it.  I was desperate since nothing else seemed to work, so I did as he said.  He increased the doses quickly, but the only advantage I felt was a little bit lower anxiety, 6 hours of much-needed sleep, and my appetite was a bit better, though still nauseated since surgery in 2015.  It's gone on long enough and I am chumping at the bit.

 

Hobson who wrote, "The Benzo Book," started his tapers with larger amounts until he had to slow it down and then went wayyyyy down to almost nothing before jumping.  It took him 3 years.

So, I thought, I'd try to taper at 5% every 2 weeks until it felt like I needed to hold and slow down from that point on down.  I have been extremely sensitive to my tapering and resulting failures.  My symptoms were deadly and now I am scared it will happen again and I will fail again.  But I always have a sickening feeling in my head and body and never had a day since surgery without it. 

 

So, I am not going to prolong this any longer than I need to.  I had been taken to 2.75 from .25 very quickly, so I thought I could try the 5% every 2 weeks to start.  I am currently at 2.125 and am feeling very much the same.  I even feel a bit better in my head as far as clearness.  I feel more determined than ever now.  I just didn't know if I should keep this up until I notice WHAT?  If the symptoms start to flare will it be too late?  Would I need to go back up to my last dose and wait it out and then try to lower more microtaperingly--is there such a word? 

 

When I got off the benzo last Sept, I was feeling about what I am feeling now and I felt success even though I was still feeling somewhat ill like now.  But as the weeks progressed, the sleeping decreased and the burning started and increased to the point of actually feeling like I was laying in a vat of acid.  My entire body in and out down to the bones and inside my mouth and everywhere you can image.  It was horrid!  Dr.'s tried everything they could think of and nothing helped the sleeplessness and ACID and nausea.  I went to the ER twice and the Urgent Care once and they all said to go back on the benzo--there was nothing else they could do for me.

 

Now I'm afraid that if I get off this again feeling somewhat fine, but still ill, that the symptoms will only get worse once I'm off.  Is this typical?  My first taper was from valium and the last 12 mg. took 12 weeks.  I as told later that this was too fast.  Found BB too late!  Now I'm sticking with clonazepam and want to do a slow and steady taper, but I don't want it to linger.  This will be 3 years Nov 5 and I am worse off and still ill.  Life has no meaning and I am getting desperate to see some progress that will mean a successful taper.

 

Thus the reason for  my questions.

 

I cannot see myself doing a microtaper from this high up because it would mean more years and I have never felt good on the benzo's.  They never really worked for me.  In fact, I actually felt worse on them as with all and any drugs the doctors tried me on.  The benzo's only helped me to just hold on.

 

I guess I am rambling on and getting nowhere.  But I hope you can see why I can't microtaper from this high and why I want to go as fast as possible without going too fast.  They say my body will know, but still not sure what that means.  I always feel ill. How ill can I allow myself to get before  it is considered too much of a taper?

 

Thanks for listening to a very confused benzo brain.

 

 

Hi Lynn,

If I'm not mistaken it sounds a lot like the 80/20 plan. Taper down by 10% for the first 80% of the original dose and at the last 20% of the dose taper by 5% (at least that's the way I understood it). I'm not advocating it; I'm only saying it has been suggested. 

I know it sounds too slow, or if your sensitivities do require micro-tapering, that sounds even slower.   However, it may have to be the progress you can personally take. A whole lot of little does eventually add up  . 

I think Jim and Builder are giving you good advice.

Peace & Hope,

Eutychus

Thank you, all, for your wonderful answers and support.  I will definitely be needing more as I advance toward that finish line.

 

Bless you all!

A daily micro taper doesnt need to be that slow.. You can still taper at any % you want.. -Your just reducing less more often... If things start to get worse, its usually easier to detect and fix than a cut and hold...

Enter symptom based tapering...

 

I started too fast, wanting to find the spot where I had to start going slow... I certainly dont think it will save me any time to healed...

 

 

Thanks.  When I feel stable enough after this last cut, I will be doing the liquid tapering under the advise of several very bright-minded and experienced helpers here on BB.  I am hoping that will be in the next 2 weeks or so.  Am trying to keep a mindset of being patient.  It is so hard when I know I have sooooooooo far to go and have been at this for so long.

Cantfly, how will I know if my symptoms are from a wave, as we wax and wane so much during tapering and withdrawal, or from tapering too fast?  I won't know the difference.  Do I always stop tapering when I feel these waves?  They can last for hours and/or days.

 

 

I cannot see myself doing a microtaper from this high up because it would mean more years and I have never felt good on the benzo's.  They never really worked for me.  In fact, I actually felt worse on them as with all and any drugs the doctors tried me on.  The benzo's only helped me to just hold on.

 

 

 

A microtaper takes no longer than a C&H taper.  In fact, because a microtaper is more gradual and generally easier to tolerate, many folks find they actually can go faster on a microtaper.

 

If you cut .5mg and hold for 10 days, or if you cut .05mg each day for 10 days, at the end of 10 days, your down .5mg, either way.

Makes good sense.  Thanks builder.

 

I am definitely going to get started when I feel a bit more stable.  Hopefully the two weeks or so will suffice.

 

I will need much help and suggestions.  I am so thankful for all of you on BB and your knowledge.  It is much appreciated!

 

 

Cantfly, how will I know if my symptoms are from a wave, as we wax and wane so much during tapering and withdrawal, or from tapering too fast?  I won't know the difference.  Do I always stop tapering when I feel these waves?  They can last for hours and/or days.

Cantfly, how will I know if my symptoms are from a wave, as we wax and wane so much during tapering and withdrawal, or from tapering too fast?  I won't know the difference.  Do I always stop tapering when I feel these waves?  They can last for hours and/or days.

Cantfly, how will I know if my symptoms are from a wave, as we wax and wane so much during tapering and withdrawal, or from tapering too fast?  I won't know the difference.  Do I always stop tapering when I feel these waves?  They can last for hours and/or days.

Thats the $100 question.. -The quest for a perfect taper...

Time and experience...

Thats why taking it way slow, and working your way up in speed if things are going ok works well..

It seems much harder to go from bad to ok, than to notice ok going bad...

If you over step there are options of slowing, holding, or Dose correction...

"Stable" -for me, -from where I would cut again, is where new things are not cycling through, and things are pretty predictable day to day, for a few weeks... Where my life is manageable, acceptable for the time being.. It is NOT feeling "great" and would vary for everyone...

 

-Note that I cut and hold, pill splitting, which is larger cuts than micro, so I get to see MY cycle of SX unfold with each cut..

With a micro, one tends to see/feel changes as they build, and a small "reaction" should get you back on track...

-Time and patience are key...

 

Perhaps some DLMT people will share how it is for them..?

 

Hope that helps a little...

 

-Sorry, I havnt read the new posts yet...

 

Cantfly,

That is an excellent way of putting it. If I might add to LynnM, If you have others who can give you feedback about your response after a cut (especially unsolicited input) that is a great confirmation. My wife this morning told me out of the blue, "you seem to be acting better, are you feeling better"?

 

I was personally on the fence about making another cut next week July 30th. Even when people are close to us they may not be able to see the crap when we are going through it. However, they notice when we are coming out of the bumpy patch. This is not to say they should guide our taper schedule; that is a very personal decision, only we can take the next step.

 

I started kind of steep and felt like well I'm gonna aim a little lower next time. I'm at a large enough dosage that when my scale arrives I can take a dry cut and a few thous won't matter still. So, I'm going for it.

Peace & hope to all, 

Eutychus