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Initial 5 or 10% Valium taper?


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I’m currently on 12.5 mg of Valium and will start my taper in a week or so.  I was originally on .5 mg of klonipin for 2.5 weeks and stopped cold turkey which was a bad idea.  I had a panic attack and Paresthesia and my doctor switched me to Ativan. I spent three weeks dropping from 1.5 to 1.25 and then another two weeks to 1 mg where I held for a month, but couldn’t handle the interdose withdrawals so now I’ve done a direct  cross over to Valium and starting to feel better after six days. I’m planning on stabilizing for a bit and then beginning my taper. I want this to be successful and wondering how I should initially drop down?  I’m two months into this process.  Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi Buddy8 :smitten:

 

I wish my doc had just weaned me off klonipin, but instead moved me to Ativan and then Valium. I stabilized on Valium, but having a rough go at it. I’m currently drying cutting since July 28th and down from 12.5 to 9.5. I’m now with a new doc and discussing a liquid micro taper.

I'm so sorry for what you went thru. I must have read stories that are similar to yours hundreds of times in here. Sometimes you wish doctors stopped to harm people with the limited knowledge they have on this poison. May one day most of them start to become conscious that what they lightheartedly prescribed can turn a person's life upside down amid suffering sometimes unbearable.

 

I'm however relieved to learn that you have found a new open minded doctor who accepted to discuss about liquid taper. Actually many of them just swipe the idea away when they discover that you are going to taper much slower than they think and second that you are going to prepare yourself your solution.

 

Would it be terrible at this point to switch back to klonipin or is that too much switching around and how would a liquid taper work?

Now that you are on Valium, you certainly don't need to go back to Klonopin to taper. Although these two address different needs, Valium (Diazepam) with its sedation, anxiolysis properties is mainly used to treat anxiety, insomnia, panic attacks...while Klonopin (Clonazepam) is mainly used for the treatment of anxiety, seizure and muscle spasm, they both present a long elimination half-life. By staying in your organism for long time, it will limit the fluctuations of the drug in the bloodstream between 2 consecutive doses and kind of make symptoms predictable. Buddies in here use to directly taper from either Diazepam or Clonazepam.

 

I’m very scared of protracted withdrawal and trying to do this process right after all the doc mistakes.

Protracted withdrawal symptoms happen under certain known conditions:

- Poly-drugged user (Different benzos/AD/Beta-Blocker/SSRI/cocaine/Sleep meds/...)

- Over fast or abrupt interruption of benzo/AD

- Repeated stop/start of above drugs

 

You can reduce the risk of protracted symptoms by tapering in a slow and gentle manner. What does that really mean? Slow means between 5-10% reduction every 10-14 days. In your case with the symptoms you are having I would go for 5% reduction every 14 days. Gentle means that you will take a hold when you start to feel symptoms. This is to give your organism enough time to catch up with your cut. The CNS needs time to adapt to the cut you make. When the cut is small, the time it needs to be stable again is little too. When the cut is large, long will be the time needed for the CNS to catch up. Symptoms are a way for your organism to tell you to give it a break.

 

7/28/18 - 12 (cut .5 after holding at 12.5 for 17 days)

8/2/18 - 11.5

8/16/18 - 11

8/26/18 - 10.5

8/31/18 - 10

9/8/18 - 9.5

An analysis of your last cuts shows:

S2XArLG.png

1. You are not following any specific period for your cut. In the Days area, the number of days is seldom the same between 2 consecutive cuts. For information, the general recommendations are to reduce between 5-10% every 10-14 days.

2. You are cutting a fixed amount of 0.5 mg per period. By doing so the cut percent gradually increases (see arrow direction). It is OK now but will become critical when the doses get lower.

This lack of rigor and regularity in the current taper might have played a role in your unsettling symptoms.

 

You made the right decision to go Liquid Taper. With this method you transform your tablets to liquid via a solvent (Vodka, fatty milk...) to be then diluted with water. You will draw up the needed dose by using an appropriate syringe and following a precise schedule. If your doctor can prescribe Valium liquid 1mg/ml then it will definitely facilitate your Liquid Taper. But I also learnt that sometimes doctors prescribe Valium Liquid limited to pediatric use only. Most importantly, take your time! The taper exercise requires patience and time as it can span over a period of several months.

 

If you want to see how your taper schedule might look like, here is the online planner: http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/ . Have a look to the Help section first. There is also a video on how to use this planner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJXVi7GUGNY

 

Please come back if questions.

 

Have a good start and a smooth journey towards freedom.

 

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Thank you very much for your help.  Do you think I’m at risk for protracted withdrawal. I’m on 125 mg of Zoloft and was also moved from klonipin to Ativan and crossed to Valium?  How would I go about the liquid taper?  I only went two days without taking the klonipin once I realized my body had formed a dependency. I’ve been on Zoloft for years.
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I'm so appreciative to you, builder.  I'm just so nervous by all of this and it does feel like a huge chemistry experiment to me.  I'm trying to navigate this and do the best I can.  I appreciate all of your time and efforts.  I just wanted to ask additional questions because this has been such a tough road so far.   
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For both Jim Hawk and the builder (who has been so helpful to me).  My doc is open to liquid but doesn't want me to create my own solution.  He said we would go through a compounding pharmacy.  How can I advise him on what is needed?  I think I'm going to have to tell him exactly what to do.  I'm currently at 9.5 mg.  I can try talking to him again about mixing my own solution, but he's very anti.     
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For both Jim Hawk and the builder (who has been so helpful to me).  My doc is open to liquid but doesn't want me to create my own solution.  He said we would go through a compounding pharmacy.  How can I advise him on what is needed?  I think I'm going to have to tell him exactly what to do.  I'm currently at 9.5 mg.  I can try talking to him again about mixing my own solution, but he's very anti.   

 

Per my last PM, tell him your solution must have a ratio of .1mg per ml.

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Right, but you were saying something about the concentration and solvent.

 

If you are not going to be able to alter the liquid, it must already be formulated .1mg per ml.

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Thanks very much. I guess and then you have to trust the compounding pharmacy knows what they’re doing.  So you would just use the syringes you mentioned and go directly from the rx and ingest it.
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The pharmacy will no how to create a proper liquid.  The only parameter you need to be sure of is the .1mg per ml.

 

Then you use your syringe(s) and follow the  dose schedule you have already prepared.

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Hi Buddy8 :smitten:

 

builder wrote:

LOL!! Read the 30 or so PMs I've sent you in the past month. ::)

Well, it happened more times to me to ask for a second opinion especially when my health is concerned. For my sleep problems I just trusted the only neurologist my doctor recommended and ended up with 3.5 years of benzo. Since then every time I have a doubt about what a doctor told me, I make my own research and sometimes finished to ask the opinion from a second professional. I think it is what Buddy8 is doing and I have nothing against it.

 

To answer Buddy8 questions on the solution to use, there are 2 options:

1.  Get a prescription for Diazepam Oral Solution 1 mg/ml . Then use flat water in the proportion of 9:1 (9 water + 1 Rx liquid) to dilute it to 0.1 mg/ml. Doctor can accept this solution as there seems to be the indication "Dilute before use" on the box.

 

2. Talk to a pharmacist and get a compound solution where benzo is suspended and not diluted. The concentration of benzo in this solution to be again 0.1 mg/ml. This will be more expensive and likely you will find a reduction of effects.

 

In both cases, stay with liquid for one or two weeks before starting to reduce. This will help your body to get used to the switch from tablets to liquid.

 

Have a good start.

 

 

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Thank you, builder and Jim Hawk for your help.  I really do appreciate it. 

 

"2. Talk to a pharmacist and get a compound solution where benzo is suspended and not diluted. The concentration of benzo in this solution to be again 0.1 mg/ml. This will be more expensive and likely you will find a reduction of effects.

 

In both cases, stay with liquid for one or two weeks before starting to reduce. This will help your body to get used to the switch from tablets to liquid."

 

What does it mean "reduction of effects?"  Also, can I get a solvent that's not PG?  In the case of the compounding pharmacy making the solution, I wouldn't have to mix anything and would just measure the contents with syringes and then either drink it from the syringe or from a glass?  Could I add water to it before I drink it? 

 

Like you said about getting used to the liquid.  I've heard some people are very sensitive to it and feel sxs or full cold turkey.  Should I start with reducing the morning dose with liquid and keep my 5 mg tablets or just try all liquid?

 

Also, I used your application.  Is this correct?  That's if I go back and forth in terms of cutting morning and night.  What do you suggest?  Thanks very much. 

 

 

 

Benzodiazepine Liquid Taper Plan

Daily Plan

Summary

Medication: Name: Diazepam - Tablet size: 5 mg - Planned quit dose: 0.500 mg/day - Suggested quit dose: 0.500 mg/day

Liquid solution: Number of tablets: 1 - Volume of liquid: 50 ml - Concentration: 0.10 mg/ml

Daily doses: Dose 1: 4.5 mg - Dose 2: 5 mg - Dose 3: 0 mg - Dose 4: 0 mg - Dose 5: 0 mg - Dose 6: 0 mg

Planned reduction: Start date: 20.09.2018 - Reduction percent: (N/A) % - Reduction quantity: 0.475 mg - Period: 14 days - Reduction order: Across doses - Combine with tablets: No - Attenuated ending: No

 

 

 

 

Day

Date Dose 1 Dose 2 Total dose

#       /      /    mg = ml mg = ml mg/day

1       /      /    4.4839 44.84 4.9821 49.82 9.4661

2       /      /    4.4679 44.68 4.9643 49.64 9.4321

3       /      /    4.4518 44.52 4.9464 49.46 9.3982

4       /      /    4.4357 44.36 4.9286 49.29 9.3643

5       /      /    4.4196 44.20 4.9107 49.11 9.3304

6       /      /    4.4036 44.04 4.8929 48.93 9.2964

7       /      /    4.3875 43.88 4.8750 48.75 9.2625

8       /      /    4.3714 43.71 4.8571 48.57 9.2286

9       /      /    4.3554 43.55 4.8393 48.39 9.1946

10       /      /    4.3393 43.39 4.8214 48.21 9.1607

11       /      /    4.3232 43.23 4.8036 48.04 9.1268

12       /      /    4.3071 43.07 4.7857 47.86 9.0929

13       /      /    4.2911 42.91 4.7679 47.68 9.0589

14       /      /    4.2750 42.75 4.7500 47.50 9.0250

15       /      /    4.2589 42.59 4.7321 47.32 8.9911

16       /      /    4.2429 42.43 4.7143 47.14 8.9571

17       /      /    4.2268 42.27 4.6964 46.96 8.9232

18       /      /    4.2107 42.11 4.6786 46.79 8.8893

19       /      /    4.1946 41.95 4.6607 46.61 8.8554

20       /      /    4.1786 41.79 4.6429 46.43 8.8214

21       /      /    4.1625 41.63 4.6250 46.25 8.7875

22       /      /    4.1464 41.46 4.6071 46.07 8.7536

23       /      /    4.1304 41.30 4.5893 45.89 8.7196

24       /      /    4.1143 41.14 4.5714 45.71 8.6857

25       /      /    4.0982 40.98 4.5536 45.54 8.6518

26       /      /    4.0821 40.82 4.5357 45.36 8.6179

27       /      /    4.0661 40.66 4.5179 45.18 8.5839

28       /      /    4.0500 40.50 4.5000 45.00 8.5500

29       /      /    4.0339 40.34 4.4821 44.82 8.5161

30       /      /    4.0179 40.18 4.4643 44.64 8.4821

31       /      /    4.0018 40.02 4.4464 44.46 8.4482

32       /      /    3.9857 39.86 4.4286 44.29 8.4143

33       /      /    3.9696 39.70 4.4107 44.11 8.3804

34       /      /    3.9536 39.54 4.3929 43.93 8.3464

35       /      /    3.9375 39.38 4.3750 43.75 8.3125

36       /      /    3.9214 39.21 4.3571 43.57 8.2786

37       /      /    3.9054 39.05 4.3393 43.39 8.2446

38       /      /    3.8893 38.89 4.3214 43.21 8.2107

39       /      /    3.8732 38.73 4.3036 43.04 8.1768

40       /      /    3.8571 38.57 4.2857 42.86 8.1429

41       /      /    3.8411 38.41 4.2679 42.68 8.1089

42       /      /    3.8250 38.25 4.2500 42.50 8.0750

43       /      /    3.8089 38.09 4.2321 42.32 8.0411

44       /      /    3.7929 37.93 4.2143 42.14 8.0071

45       /      /    3.7768 37.77 4.1964 41.96 7.9732

46       /      /    3.7607 37.61 4.1786 41.79 7.9393

47       /      /    3.7446 37.45 4.1607 41.61 7.9054

48       /      /    3.7286 37.29 4.1429 41.43 7.8714

49       /      /    3.7125 37.13 4.1250 41.25 7.8375

50       /      /    3.6964 36.96 4.1071 41.07 7.8036

51       /      /    3.6804 36.80 4.0893 40.89 7.7696

52       /      /    3.6643 36.64 4.0714 40.71 7.7357

53       /      /    3.6482 36.48 4.0536 40.54 7.7018

54       /      /    3.6321 36.32 4.0357 40.36 7.6679

55       /      /    3.6161 36.16 4.0179 40.18 7.6339

56       /      /    3.6000 36.00 4.0000 40.00 7.6000

57       /      /    3.5839 35.84 3.9821 39.82 7.5661

58       /      /    3.5679 35.68 3.9643 39.64 7.5321

59       /      /    3.5518 35.52 3.9464 39.46 7.4982

60       /      /    3.5357 35.36 3.9286 39.29 7.4643

61       /      /    3.5196 35.20 3.9107 39.11 7.4304

62       /      /    3.5036 35.04 3.8929 38.93 7.3964

63       /      /    3.4875 34.88 3.8750 38.75 7.3625

64       /      /    3.4714 34.71 3.8571 38.57 7.3286

65       /      /    3.4554 34.55 3.8393 38.39 7.2946

66       /      /    3.4393 34.39 3.8214 38.21 7.2607

67       /      /    3.4232 34.23 3.8036 38.04 7.2268

68       /      /    3.4071 34.07 3.7857 37.86 7.1929

69       /      /    3.3911 33.91 3.7679 37.68 7.1589

70       /      /    3.3750 33.75 3.7500 37.50 7.1250

71       /      /    3.3589 33.59 3.7321 37.32 7.0911

72       /      /    3.3429 33.43 3.7143 37.14 7.0571

73       /      /    3.3268 33.27 3.6964 36.96 7.0232

74       /      /    3.3107 33.11 3.6786 36.79 6.9893

75       /      /    3.2946 32.95 3.6607 36.61 6.9554

76       /      /    3.2786 32.79 3.6429 36.43 6.9214

77       /      /    3.2625 32.63 3.6250 36.25 6.8875

78       /      /    3.2464 32.46 3.6071 36.07 6.8536

79       /      /    3.2304 32.30 3.5893 35.89 6.8196

80       /      /    3.2143 32.14 3.5714 35.71 6.7857

81       /      /    3.1982 31.98 3.5536 35.54 6.7518

82       /      /    3.1821 31.82 3.5357 35.36 6.7179

83       /      /    3.1661 31.66 3.5179 35.18 6.6839

84       /      /    3.1500 31.50 3.5000 35.00 6.6500

85       /      /    3.1339 31.34 3.4821 34.82 6.6161

86       /      /    3.1179 31.18 3.4643 34.64 6.5821

87       /      /    3.1018 31.02 3.4464 34.46 6.5482

88       /      /    3.0857 30.86 3.4286 34.29 6.5143

89       /      /    3.0696 30.70 3.4107 34.11 6.4804

90       /      /    3.0536 30.54 3.3929 33.93 6.4464

91       /      /    3.0375 30.38 3.3750 33.75 6.4125

92       /      /    3.0214 30.21 3.3571 33.57 6.3786

93       /      /    3.0054 30.05 3.3393 33.39 6.3446

94       /      /    2.9893 29.89 3.3214 33.21 6.3107

95       /      /    2.9732 29.73 3.3036 33.04 6.2768

96       /      /    2.9571 29.57 3.2857 32.86 6.2429

97       /      /    2.9411 29.41 3.2679 32.68 6.2089

98       /      /    2.9250 29.25 3.2500 32.50 6.1750

99       /      /    2.9089 29.09 3.2321 32.32 6.1411

100       /      /    2.8929 28.93 3.2143 32.14 6.1071

101       /      /    2.8768 28.77 3.1964 31.96 6.0732

102       /      /    2.8607 28.61 3.1786 31.79 6.0393

103       /      /    2.8446 28.45 3.1607 31.61 6.0054

104       /      /    2.8286 28.29 3.1429 31.43 5.9714

105       /      /    2.8125 28.13 3.1250 31.25 5.9375

106       /      /    2.7964 27.96 3.1071 31.07 5.9036

107       /      /    2.7804 27.80 3.0893 30.89 5.8696

108       /      /    2.7643 27.64 3.0714 30.71 5.8357

109       /      /    2.7482 27.48 3.0536 30.54 5.8018

110       /      /    2.7321 27.32 3.0357 30.36 5.7679

111       /      /    2.7161 27.16 3.0179 30.18 5.7339

112       /      /    2.7000 27.00 3.0000 30.00 5.7000

113       /      /    2.6839 26.84 2.9821 29.82 5.6661

114       /      /    2.6679 26.68 2.9643 29.64 5.6321

115       /      /    2.6518 26.52 2.9464 29.46 5.5982

116       /      /    2.6357 26.36 2.9286 29.29 5.5643

117       /      /    2.6196 26.20 2.9107 29.11 5.5304

118       /      /    2.6036 26.04 2.8929 28.93 5.4964

119       /      /    2.5875 25.88 2.8750 28.75 5.4625

120       /      /    2.5714 25.71 2.8571 28.57 5.4286

121       /      /    2.5554 25.55 2.8393 28.39 5.3946

122       /      /    2.5393 25.39 2.8214 28.21 5.3607

123       /      /    2.5232 25.23 2.8036 28.04 5.3268

124       /      /    2.5071 25.07 2.7857 27.86 5.2929

125       /      /    2.4911 24.91 2.7679 27.68 5.2589

126       /      /    2.4750 24.75 2.7500 27.50 5.2250

127       /      /    2.4589 24.59 2.7321 27.32 5.1911

128       /      /    2.4429 24.43 2.7143 27.14 5.1571

129       /      /    2.4268 24.27 2.6964 26.96 5.1232

130       /      /    2.4107 24.11 2.6786 26.79 5.0893

131       /      /    2.3946 23.95 2.6607 26.61 5.0554

132       /      /    2.3786 23.79 2.6429 26.43 5.0214

133       /      /    2.3625 23.63 2.6250 26.25 4.9875

134       /      /    2.3464 23.46 2.6071 26.07 4.9536

135       /      /    2.3304 23.30 2.5893 25.89 4.9196

136       /      /    2.3143 23.14 2.5714 25.71 4.8857

137       /      /    2.2982 22.98 2.5536 25.54 4.8518

138       /      /    2.2821 22.82 2.5357 25.36 4.8179

139       /      /    2.2661 22.66 2.5179 25.18 4.7839

140       /      /    2.2500 22.50 2.5000 25.00 4.7500

141       /      /    2.2339 22.34 2.4821 24.82 4.7161

142       /      /    2.2179 22.18 2.4643 24.64 4.6821

143       /      /    2.2018 22.02 2.4464 24.46 4.6482

144       /      /    2.1857 21.86 2.4286 24.29 4.6143

145       /      /    2.1696 21.70 2.4107 24.11 4.5804

146       /      /    2.1536 21.54 2.3929 23.93 4.5464

147       /      /    2.1375 21.38 2.3750 23.75 4.5125

148       /      /    2.1214 21.21 2.3571 23.57 4.4786

149       /      /    2.1054 21.05 2.3393 23.39 4.4446

150       /      /    2.0893 20.89 2.3214 23.21 4.4107

151       /      /    2.0732 20.73 2.3036 23.04 4.3768

152       /      /    2.0571 20.57 2.2857 22.86 4.3429

153       /      /    2.0411 20.41 2.2679 22.68 4.3089

154       /      /    2.0250 20.25 2.2500 22.50 4.2750

155       /      /    2.0089 20.09 2.2321 22.32 4.2411

156       /      /    1.9929 19.93 2.2143 22.14 4.2071

157       /      /    1.9768 19.77 2.1964 21.96 4.1732

158       /      /    1.9607 19.61 2.1786 21.79 4.1393

159       /      /    1.9446 19.45 2.1607 21.61 4.1054

160       /      /    1.9286 19.29 2.1429 21.43 4.0714

161       /      /    1.9125 19.13 2.1250 21.25 4.0375

162       /      /    1.8964 18.96 2.1071 21.07 4.0036

163       /      /    1.8804 18.80 2.0893 20.89 3.9696

164       /      /    1.8643 18.64 2.0714 20.71 3.9357

165       /      /    1.8482 18.48 2.0536 20.54 3.9018

166       /      /    1.8321 18.32 2.0357 20.36 3.8679

167       /      /    1.8161 18.16 2.0179 20.18 3.8339

168       /      /    1.8000 18.00 2.0000 20.00 3.8000

169       /      /    1.7839 17.84 1.9821 19.82 3.7661

170       /      /    1.7679 17.68 1.9643 19.64 3.7321

171       /      /    1.7518 17.52 1.9464 19.46 3.6982

172       /      /    1.7357 17.36 1.9286 19.29 3.6643

173       /      /    1.7196 17.20 1.9107 19.11 3.6304

174       /      /    1.7036 17.04 1.8929 18.93 3.5964

175       /      /    1.6875 16.88 1.8750 18.75 3.5625

176       /      /    1.6714 16.71 1.8571 18.57 3.5286

177       /      /    1.6554 16.55 1.8393 18.39 3.4946

178       /      /    1.6393 16.39 1.8214 18.21 3.4607

179       /      /    1.6232 16.23 1.8036 18.04 3.4268

180       /      /    1.6071 16.07 1.7857 17.86 3.3929

181       /      /    1.5911 15.91 1.7679 17.68 3.3589

182       /      /    1.5750 15.75 1.7500 17.50 3.3250

183       /      /    1.5589 15.59 1.7321 17.32 3.2911

184       /      /    1.5429 15.43 1.7143 17.14 3.2571

185       /      /    1.5268 15.27 1.6964 16.96 3.2232

186       /      /    1.5107 15.11 1.6786 16.79 3.1893

187       /      /    1.4946 14.95 1.6607 16.61 3.1554

188       /      /    1.4786 14.79 1.6429 16.43 3.1214

189       /      /    1.4625 14.63 1.6250 16.25 3.0875

190       /      /    1.4464 14.46 1.6071 16.07 3.0536

191       /      /    1.4304 14.30 1.5893 15.89 3.0196

192       /      /    1.4143 14.14 1.5714 15.71 2.9857

193       /      /    1.3982 13.98 1.5536 15.54 2.9518

194       /      /    1.3821 13.82 1.5357 15.36 2.9179

195       /      /    1.3661 13.66 1.5179 15.18 2.8839

196       /      /    1.3500 13.50 1.5000 15.00 2.8500

197       /      /    1.3339 13.34 1.4821 14.82 2.8161

198       /      /    1.3179 13.18 1.4643 14.64 2.7821

199       /      /    1.3018 13.02 1.4464 14.46 2.7482

200       /      /    1.2857 12.86 1.4286 14.29 2.7143

201       /      /    1.2696 12.70 1.4107 14.11 2.6804

202       /      /    1.2536 12.54 1.3929 13.93 2.6464

203       /      /    1.2375 12.38 1.3750 13.75 2.6125

204       /      /    1.2214 12.21 1.3571 13.57 2.5786

205       /      /    1.2054 12.05 1.3393 13.39 2.5446

206       /      /    1.1893 11.89 1.3214 13.21 2.5107

207       /      /    1.1732 11.73 1.3036 13.04 2.4768

208       /      /    1.1571 11.57 1.2857 12.86 2.4429

209       /      /    1.1411 11.41 1.2679 12.68 2.4089

210       /      /    1.1250 11.25 1.2500 12.50 2.3750

211       /      /    1.1089 11.09 1.2321 12.32 2.3411

212       /      /    1.0929 10.93 1.2143 12.14 2.3071

213       /      /    1.0768 10.77 1.1964 11.96 2.2732

214       /      /    1.0607 10.61 1.1786 11.79 2.2393

215       /      /    1.0446 10.45 1.1607 11.61 2.2054

216       /      /    1.0286 10.29 1.1429 11.43 2.1714

217       /      /    1.0125 10.13 1.1250 11.25 2.1375

218       /      /    0.9964 9.96 1.1071 11.07 2.1036

219       /      /    0.9804 9.80 1.0893 10.89 2.0696

220       /      /    0.9643 9.64 1.0714 10.71 2.0357

221       /      /    0.9482 9.48 1.0536 10.54 2.0018

222       /      /    0.9321 9.32 1.0357 10.36 1.9679

223       /      /    0.9161 9.16 1.0179 10.18 1.9339

224       /      /    0.9000 9.00 1.0000 10.00 1.9000

225       /      /    0.8839 8.84 0.9821 9.82 1.8661

226       /      /    0.8679 8.68 0.9643 9.64 1.8321

227       /      /    0.8518 8.52 0.9464 9.46 1.7982

228       /      /    0.8357 8.36 0.9286 9.29 1.7643

229       /      /    0.8196 8.20 0.9107 9.11 1.7304

230       /      /    0.8036 8.04 0.8929 8.93 1.6964

231       /      /    0.7875 7.88 0.8750 8.75 1.6625

232       /      /    0.7714 7.71 0.8571 8.57 1.6286

233       /      /    0.7554 7.55 0.8393 8.39 1.5946

234       /      /    0.7393 7.39 0.8214 8.21 1.5607

235       /      /    0.7232 7.23 0.8036 8.04 1.5268

236       /      /    0.7071 7.07 0.7857 7.86 1.4929

237       /      /    0.6911 6.91 0.7679 7.68 1.4589

238       /      /    0.6750 6.75 0.7500 7.50 1.4250

239       /      /    0.6589 6.59 0.7321 7.32 1.3911

240       /      /    0.6429 6.43 0.7143 7.14 1.3571

241       /      /    0.6268 6.27 0.6964 6.96 1.3232

242       /      /    0.6107 6.11 0.6786 6.79 1.2893

243       /      /    0.5946 5.95 0.6607 6.61 1.2554

244       /      /    0.5786 5.79 0.6429 6.43 1.2214

245       /      /    0.5625 5.63 0.6250 6.25 1.1875

246       /      /    0.5464 5.46 0.6071 6.07 1.1536

247       /      /    0.5304 5.30 0.5893 5.89 1.1196

248       /      /    0.5143 5.14 0.5714 5.71 1.0857

249       /      /    0.4982 4.98 0.5536 5.54 1.0518

250       /      /    0.4821 4.82 0.5357 5.36 1.0179

251       /      /    0.4661 4.66 0.5179 5.18 0.9839

252       /      /    0.4500 4.50 0.5000 5.00 0.9500

253       /      /    0.4339 4.34 0.4821 4.82 0.9161

254       /      /    0.4179 4.18 0.4643 4.64 0.8821

255       /      /    0.4018 4.02 0.4464 4.46 0.8482

256       /      /    0.3857 3.86 0.4286 4.29 0.8143

257       /      /    0.3696 3.70 0.4107 4.11 0.7804

258       /      /    0.3536 3.54 0.3929 3.93 0.7464

259       /      /    0.3375 3.38 0.3750 3.75 0.7125

260       /      /    0.3214 3.21 0.3571 3.57 0.6786

261       /      /    0.3054 3.05 0.3393 3.39 0.6446

262       /      /    0.2893 2.89 0.3214 3.21 0.6107

263       /      /    0.2732 2.73 0.3036 3.04 0.5768

264       /      /    0.2571 2.57 0.2857 2.86 0.5429

265       /      /    0.2411 2.41 0.2679 2.68 0.5089

266       /      /    0.2250 2.25 0.2500 2.50 0.4750

     

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I’m concerned about PG. https://draxe.com/propylene-glycol/

 

PG is used in thousands of food and personal care products. You probably use several every day already.  PG and alcohol are the 2 most widely used pharma solvents in the world.  And per out previous discussions, you really have no idea what products the pharmacy will use to make your liquid anyway.

 

It will never cease to amaze me how many folks who are dependent  known debilitating drug can find so many reasons why they can't follow the easiest  procedure that would allow them to stop using them . ::) ::)

 

 

 

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Hi Buddy8,

 

What does it mean "reduction of effects?"

When switching from tablets to liquid a number of buddies reported a diminution of effects like when somebody makes a cut although the dose hasn't changed. This change of effects seems to affect differently individuals. Some found it irrelevant while others likened it to an abrupt interruption. You will need to test it on yourself and get your own experience. For the same reason, it is suggested for buddies going Liquid Taper to take the same liquid dose as when with tablets for about two weeks before starting to cut liquid. It will allow the body to get familiar with variation in dose if any, following the switch from tablets.

 

can I get a solvent that's not PG?

There are 2 Diazepam liquid Rx (Roxane Laboratories) I know of:

x76BP16.png

 

- Oral Solution is a PG based liquid, 5mg/5ml (or 1mg/ml).

- Intensol Solution (Concentrate) is an alcohol based solution 5mg/ml.

In both cases you will need to add just water to dilute the Rx liquid. No alcohol nor PG will need to be bought. If you have concerns about PG then Intensol Solution is the Rx to obtain. In this case 1 ml Rx + 49 ml water = 50 ml solution of 0.1 mg/ml.

 

In the case of the compounding pharmacy making the solution, I wouldn't have to mix anything and would just measure the contents with syringes and then either drink it from the syringe or from a glass?

If the pharma compounding solution is delivered at 0.1 mg/ml then you won't have to mix anything and you would just measure the contents with syringes and then inject it directly in the mouth. After you can rinse the syringe and your mouth with water to not loose benzo.

 

Should I start with reducing the morning dose with liquid and keep my 5 mg tablets or just try all liquid?

You can try to liquid taper the morning dose while keeping the night 5mg in tablets. It won't harm you and several buddies are doing that. If you wish to see how to combine liquid and tablets in the application then use the option "Combine with tablets".

 

Also, I used your application.  Is this correct?

You are free to use it or not. It has been conceived to help buddies with no desire to do math to prepare by themselves their own taper plan. It comes handy but there is nothing fancy in it.

 

You are NOT the only one who long hesitates before deciding to plunge :D . I have witnessed many but many buddies have passed through the same doubts, hesitations, retreats, trials, holding back...They have questions over questions and they don't ever seem to end. I don't mind because I think everything needs its time to fit into the right picture. An apple needs sun light, warmth, air and a multitude of other things before it matures and comes red. Some apples need more time than others but one day your apple will be ripe, you will plunge and it will be the beginning of your freedom.

 

Hope I answered your questions.

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Thanks for all the information.  I'm not trying to send a barrage of questions and I really do appreciate the responses.  I became dependent on Klonopin after 2.5 weeks so I'm clearly pretty sensitive to this class of drug.  That's why there are concerns and hesitation.  I definitely need a refined schedule and I 1000000000000% want to get off this drug.  I hate it.  I'm into month 4 of this and want to do it right.   

 

Jim Hawk ----For the same reason, it is suggested for buddies going Liquid Taper to take the same liquid dose as when with tablets for about two weeks before starting to cut liquid. It will allow the body to get familiar with variation in dose if any, following the switch from tablets. -  Are you saying in this to take the liquid with tablets or just to take the liquid for two weeks and get your body accustomed to it? 

 

Also, what is the preferred Oral solution?  I'm not completely opposed to PG.  I'm assuming the preferred way to do things is to mix the water with the Valium yourself instead of a compounding pharmacy?  If my doctor allows me to mix the ingredients, do you shake or stir anything?  Also, does there appear to be more reduction effects when a compound pharmacy is handling all the mixing? 

 

Does this seem accurate based on the 5% cut every 14 days?  Just want to make sure I'm inputting it correctly.  Thank you so much.     

 

Benzodiazepine Liquid Taper Plan

Daily Plan

Summary

Medication: Name: Diazepam - Tablet size: 5 mg - Planned quit dose: 0.500 mg/day - Suggested quit dose: 0.500 mg/day

Liquid solution: Number of tablets: 1 - Volume of liquid: 50 ml - Concentration: 0.10 mg/ml

Daily doses: Dose 1: 4.5 mg - Dose 2: 5 mg - Dose 3: 0 mg - Dose 4: 0 mg - Dose 5: 0 mg - Dose 6: 0 mg

Planned reduction: Start date: 14.09.2018 - Reduction percent: (N/A) % - Reduction quantity: 0.475 mg - Period: 14 days - Reduction order: First doses first - Combine with tablets: No - Attenuated ending: No

 

 

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Hi Buddy8  :smitten:

 

Are you saying in this to take the liquid with tablets or just to take the liquid for two weeks and get your body accustomed to it? 

If you decide to go for a combination of liquid+tablets then since the impact of the liquid part is limited, you can start to taper right away. Should you switch from your 9.5 mg tablets to all liquid then it would be useful to stay on 9.5 mg liquid for a couple of weeks for the body to get used to this change before starting to taper. In your case I would be cautious and go for the combined solution+tablets.

 

I'm assuming the preferred way to do things is to mix the water with the Valium yourself instead of a compounding pharmacy?

This is my preferred approach.

 

If my doctor allows me to mix the ingredients, do you shake or stir anything?

As the Rx is already in liquid, just slightly stir to have Rx homogeneously distributed in the solution.

 

does there appear to be more reduction effects when a compound pharmacy is handling all the mixing?

This is what I have read in many posts.

 

Just want to make sure I'm inputting it correctly

This is how I would have the first go:

lgDXt7P.png

 

LStJZ5d.png

 

The blue column is the volume of solution you'll need to draw up with a 10ml and a 1ml syringe for the decimal part. The "3/4 T (3 quarters of a tablet)" is the dry tablet part you'll need to swallow TOGETHER with the liquid dose to complete the daily dose.

 

Hope I answered your questions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I think I am slightly confused.  I thought the ml was 10x the mg dosage you would be pulling in the syringe and ingesting?  And if I want to get rid of the morning dose first, would I just take liquid in the morning and then 5 mg at night or does that ruin having part of the pill in the morning with the liquid?  Thanks so much. 

 

 

 

 

Benzodiazepine Liquid Taper Plan

Daily Plan

Summary

Medication: Name: Diazepam - Tablet size: 5 mg - Planned quit dose: 0.500 mg/day - Suggested quit dose: 0.500 mg/day

Liquid solution: Number of tablets: 1 - Volume of liquid: 50 ml - Concentration: 0.10 mg/ml

Daily doses: Dose 1: 4.5 mg - Dose 2: 5 mg - Dose 3: 0 mg - Dose 4: 0 mg - Dose 5: 0 mg - Dose 6: 0 mg

Planned reduction: Start date: 20.09.2018 - Reduction percent: (N/A) % - Reduction quantity: 0.475 mg - Period: 14 days - Reduction order: Across doses - Combine with tablets: No - Attenuated ending: No

 

 

 

 

Day

Date  Dose 1  Dose 2  Total dose

#        /      /        mg  = ml  mg  = ml  mg/day

1          /      /        4.4839  44.84  4.9821  49.82  9.4661

2          /      /        4.4679  44.68  4.9643  49.64  9.4321

3          /      /        4.4518  44.52  4.9464  49.46  9.3982

4          /      /        4.4357  44.36  4.9286  49.29  9.3643

5          /      /        4.4196  44.20  4.9107  49.11  9.3304

6          /      /        4.4036  44.04  4.8929  48.93  9.2964

7          /      /        4.3875  43.88  4.8750  48.75  9.2625

8          /      /        4.3714  43.71  4.8571  48.57  9.2286

9          /      /        4.3554  43.55  4.8393  48.39  9.1946

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Hi Buddie8 :smitten:

 

I thought the ml was 10x the mg dosage you would be pulling in the syringe and ingesting?

0.1 mg/ml means in 1 ml there is just 0.1 mg of benzo. That also means that if you need 1 mg benzo you will need to drink 10 times that quantity in ml of solution. So if you need in your example 4.4839 mg of benzo then the volume to drink is 44.84 ml (4.4839 x 10)

 

And if I want to get rid of the morning dose first, would I just take liquid in the morning and then 5 mg at night or does that ruin having part of the pill in the morning with the liquid?

You can choose the option "First dose first" to taper the morning dose first. By combining tablet with solution for the morning dose you will impact only the morning dose. The night dose of 5 mg you can continue to take it in tablet (instead of solution as indicated in the chart) until the morning dose extinguishes. Then you start to taper the night dose.

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Right.  I guess I'm confused by your chart with the blue dose ml's?  How are those numbers achieved and I don't know if I can cut 3/4 of a tablet, which would be the only part of the tablet you would be adding?  Thanks and apologies.     

 

 

 

 

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Hi Buddy8 :smitten:

 

I'm confused by your chart with the blue dose ml's?  How are those numbers achieved

Calculated by taking the dose, subtract the portion of dry tablet, then convert the rest to solution based on the concentration of benzo (Ex: 0.1mg/ml)

 

I don't know if I can cut 3/4 of a tablet

As most tablets, if not all, can be split to 4 equal parts, the app considers when possible to use 1/4 (one quarter), 1/2 (one half or two quarters) or 3/4 (three quarters). When you have to take 3/4, you take 3 times one quarter. You can use a knife or a razor or a tablet splitter sold in Ebay for few dollars to split your tablets to 4 parts. Don't worry too much when they crumble. Actually the quantity of benzo as main ingredient in the tablet is so small that there won't be virtually any difference in dose in each quarter even if they are not of the same size.

 

:hug:

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For the builder and Jim Hawk - So I spoke to my doc who is very involved in this process about the liquid taper.  This is his proposal, which doesn't seem good. 

 

 

He wants me to do a .1 reduction every two days for 14 days?  He also says I can just use the Valium and I don't have to dilute it and we will use an insulin syringe.  So it would be 1mg = 1 ml. 

 

I'm at a loss right now.  He said to try this first and then we can attempt something else. 

 

I've had to start Bactrim because of my GI issues which to my knowledge doesn't have an interaction with Valium (hopefully) and I'm still taking oral Nystatin for thrush.  I'm also holding at 9.5. 

 

 

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Hi Buddy8 :smitten:

 

I would be happier if your doctor asked you, instead of reducing 0.1 mg each 2 days, to reduce 0.05 mg which is half quantity each single day. It would help minimizing the inter-dose withdrawal although Valium is known to have a very long elimination half-life. A small number of buddies in here actually take Valium twice a day to address this inter-dose issue. Your doctor could not do that because that would come to ask you to dilute the liquid Rx as you can't physically draw up 0.05 ml from the undiluted Rx even by using a 1 ml insulin syringe. But in a certain way it could work for you provided your inter-dose withdrawal symptoms, if any, remain manageable.

 

From a reduction quantity viewpoint it is 0.7 mg (0.1 x 7) reduction over 9.5 mg every 14 days. It's a 7.4% reduction every 14 days and it could work too.

 

Hope I answered your question.

 

:hug:

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Yeah, I take Valium in the morning 4.5 and night 5 mg.  I have a little-increased anxiety in the morning and then it seems to fade away.  I feel like I'm stuck at 9.5 right now.  I have oral thrush which I'm treating with Nystatin and Bactrim (1st dose today) for my GI bacterial infection.  I keep losing weight because I'm trying to get rid of the oral thrush and avoiding carbs and sugar and just feel depleted.  The doc mentioned Diflucan for the oral thrush, but that could raise the levels of Valium.  Dealing with Candida and benzo withdrawal is not fun.  I just want to figure out a taper that works for me and do it.  The doc also mentioned gabapentin, but I'm anti right now.  I'm on Valium and Zoloft and don't want to add another one.  What do you think about all this? 

 

What would be the percentage if I did .05 mg reduction every day for 14 days?       

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