Bypassing a lousy national healthcare system, get something done elsewhere ?

I´m just thinking I´d have to live in a different country. Serious iatrogenic damage, not just ´the benzo´. Of the type ´it would be less of a problem if I had never taken clonazepam. Medical treatment without informed consent, not just the benzo/drugs. I´m really messed up.

My thinking is that I´d have to live ´there´ to get help elsewhere. Germany ? Likely too ´by the book´. Belgium ? Possibly, but it´s just a small country which would make it very hard.

USA, better chances, shop till you drop, I´d need a few 100,000 USD for living and treatment without insurance ... I´m not sure I could get anything done anywhere.

It´s quite bizarre. The local primary care system is obsessed with ´living normally´, preventing medicalization (what´s that clonazepam ?), continuity of care (makes it hard to get treatment for medical errors) and in general a medical system that is more suited for the 1950s. Specialists are very much ´by the book´.

Ideas ? tapering = living normally, gradually lowering dose. I´d hate to do a CT and fry my brain cellls.

As a local wrote about doctors and benzodiazepines ´they know for what purposes they can be used, but if there are problems they don´t know what to do or do the wrong thing´.

Just another post, run through google translate to describe what one can encounter when medical errors have been made. Of course, that's the version of the doc. Then my interpretation.

The source is 'medisch contact', a magazine for MDs in The Netherlands.

The patient in question is Sophie Hankes, victim of an experimental neurosurgery procedure which was performed in Germany, without her consent. Dr Kuks is a neurologist. She also runs the website sin-nl.org

The text 'In MC recently (MC 15/2009: 654) there was an article with a photo of the founder and spokesperson for the victims of Iatrogenic Nalatigheid Nederland (SIN). I had not immediately recognized the ethicist and jurist in that peaceful environment.

There is also a photo of me. That is on the blacklist website of SIN. A few years ago I saw a person with various medical aids who requested (demanded?) imaging research (note : like MRI, CT). I was not allowed to see the patient's medical history.

The taxi driver came along as a witness - someone with experience. The clinical picture was (as far as was left to my judgement) not compatible with any neurological disease. On the contrary. No MRI and end of consultation because further consultation/discussion (note: translation issue, related to the concept 'continuity of care')  proved impossible.

With that, I read - in my magazine - I did not do enough for a victim. After the consultation, I received some 'juristoid' letters from the patient who - as it turned out - was a prominent SIN member. No complaint at the hospital, no appeal for a disciplinary committee, but a photo on a website.

It is impossible for a doctor to reply to this. As long as there is no organ where intruders in physician's offices can be held accountable, it is advisable not to pay any attention to this kind of tribunals and their people.

I would like to share my experiences with SIN for a committee. Then I would violate professional secrecy, but that is allowed in contagious matters that harm humanity.

Certainly, there is a lot that can go wrong in the medical circuit. I also want to put my hand in my own bosom (expression), but not in this case and not for this foundation. In my experience, SIN is malicious nonsense of wacky people who do not get their way.

Prof. J.B.M. Kuks, neurologist'

Paterswolde, April 2009' END QUOTE Note: Ms. Hankes story claims she brought her assistent, not a taxi driver.

One part is the issue of covering collegues. The other part of the problem, perhaps not sufficiently acknowledged by Ms. Hankes is that Dutch doctors want to work the way they learned their job. There is a phrase for the medical profession that could be translated as medical class or more accurately 'medical estate' (like nobility, clergy). Doctors stand far above the rest of society. Patients don't know anything about medical issues, right ? Only doctors can make these decisions. In specialist care, work that is not evidence based or more than deemed necessary is seen as an abomination. A lot depends on a referral letter, the patients prior history (written by other doctors, the concept 'continuity of care'), the story of the patient and what can be seen visually, without diagnostics like an MRI or CT.

The horror of wasting money on unnecessary MRIs, CTs and unnecessary tests ! The doctor knows best, and wants to work the way he learned his job. He is proud of that.

If they have seriously messed you up by committing medical errors ... ms. Hankes recommend going abroad, without discussing medical errors. The nature of my issues make that more difficult.

As someone put it, I´m pretty much FUBAR.

Revisiting the ´medical records´, there was no chance to actually recover. The health problems (not treated, too late, incorrectly treated), prescription drugs: almost as if the doc wanted things to go wrong. I read one interpretation of the objective of medical records: for the defense of the doctor !

No chance a Librium taper would work because ´you´re fine, it´s just the benzo´ is so untrue, and clonazepam is so different. Aside from theoretical receptor affinities, an example is clonazepam´s strong affinity for the brain stem while Librium´s affinity there is almost insignificant. Spinal cord ? Probably the same.

I´ve come to realize that I´m a hormonal mess. Some actual values seem to be fine, some would suggest dehydration (hyperabumenia) and hormonal imbalance. Lots of causes.

I´ve got some ideas about what could be done, but no access.

Practically, it seems as the clonazepam and the health issues are destroying muscle tissue whether I exercise or not. A bit like an autoimmune disease. So much for a 'natural' recovery.

Liberty,

I am very sorry this has happened to you. I've read your posts for a long time, and I never realized that the Netherlands had a healthcare system like you describe.

As far as living somewhere else, would Sweden or France work? Or what about Finland or Iceland?

Here in the US, people need to be very rich to afford healthcare if they don't have insurance of some kind. $100,000 in US dollars wouldn't be enough to live and get good medical care. And even access to healthcare here is constantly "in danger" because it's not considered a basic human need.

You know European countries way better than I do so I surely hope you can find one that works. Canada is a very welcoming country, but to immigrate, you have to be able to show you can support yourself with either having enough income to live on or be able to work there.

I hear they have a good healthcare system and all Canadians can have it, but I'm not sure how it works with immigrants. It might be worth looking into though. If you could become a naturalized citizen of Canada, I think you could get healthcare then. But you'd have to research this a bit.

My sincere best hopes and wishes for you.

Very different cultures and I don't speak the languages. It's not like the states in the USA.

Those countries have their own healthcare systems, for the most part likely state funded/organized. Which means rationing care.

Having things treated in time makes all the difference. They messed me up, and it would be difficult anywhere .The USA might offer me some opportunities, but the money ... Service oriented attitude (at times), population size, commercial healthcare and a few other things as well.

Finland, Iceland ? No idea. Looks more complicated, since it's completely independent. And small (population).

Hi Liberty, I wonder what you might hope to find in the way of help in the USA.

I have yet to hear of a successful program for benzo withdrawal, apart from informally working with one’s own doc to taper down on plans usually cooked up right here on BB.

There doesn’t seem to be anything that helps, apart from tapering down very slowly.

Of course, anyone can do that anywhere – there’s no magic here in America.

Leslie,

Not benzo withdrawal. I´m pretty much FUBAR.

I could really use a ´supermarket´ model in healthcare, but you won´t find that anywhere.

I´m considering having those medical records destroyed (a mess, ´what´s the function of medical records ? For the defense of the doctor ?´) and to leave the practice of that GP, which would mean the discontinuation of the clonazepam prescriptions. Here, you just leave a message on their answering machine for repeat prescriptions ... No ´controlled substances´, there is the Opium Law but GPs don´t give a damn. And obviously I wouldn´t change to a different GP, pointless. I´d have to get any further clonazepam through ´alternate´ ways, but that guy just makes me sick.

A further disadvantage would be travelling abroad without a valid prescription or if I tried to get medical help abroad.

liberty, all I can suggest is to do your best and do some research about other countries to try.

I doubt that any system is perfect. I have heard good things about Sweden and France. You could learn these languages if that is holding you back. I speak French fluently and I learned it in high school and college.

You sound so defeated. Since you obviously have a computer, just give researching a try.

I don't doubt that you feel you are FUBAR, but don't give up yet.

Someone who is an expert on medical errors claims that it's impossible to get any recognition or treatment for the consequences in this country. She advises to go abroad, without mentioning that the problems were caused by medical errors.

This may be relatively simple if it's a 'simple' surgery in a hospital that went wrong. The errors in primary care in this country are horrendous. And basically, for me the relevant issues wouldn't be THAT much of an issue if this drug were not an issue ! Still not harmless, but I would be able to recover. So, (very) difficult anywhere. Pretty much forget about getting anything done in a country with a closed and restrictive medical environment. I don't know about those other European countries. I just can't think of one, and I don't have the connections. In a way, Belgium might be an option but it's just a small country. They wouldn't have treated me this way in Germany, but I think being strict can prevent resolutions of certain medical errors. And moving (housing!) to a different country involves costs, and it's not like moving to a different state in the USA. The USA has a more favorable medical environment, and a population of over 300 million people.

Someone suggested Australia. Getting biomedical testing still isn't the same as getting something done !

Doctors can be bad everywhere. But Dutch doctors can be so arrogant and cruel. Not all of them, of course. Still, they are all 'colleagues'.