I hit a wall

Hi

 

When buddies approach for the first time the taper process, frequently they thought it would simply consist of reducing a small amount of medication every period of time until the last dose then jump. They are not wrong as the drug reduction is the essence of the taper. Then it comes to put it in practice. Like most of us, they have in their hands tablets in a bottle they have been using so far. Next step would be to split a tablet to small and equal parts.

 

Let's take the example of someone who like me uses a 0.5 mg Clonazepam tablet for his current dose of 0.5 mg/day. Using a tablet splitter/knife/razor, he separates the tablet to quarters, each containing 0.125 mg of drug. With some dexterity he will get 4 quarters of nearly the same size. I did not have the same ability and although I used a tablet splitter, the parts crumbled most of the time during the separation. Sometimes they resulted in more than 4 parts! This operation was sometimes source of frustration as I stared down at the tiny crumbs. I frequently wondered who is that gifted person who is able to further split a tiny tablet to 1/8 and obtain 8 equal parts each containing 0.0625 mg of benzo. I guess only a few can do it. So in our example we will stick to the quarters of a tablet.

 

First day, buddie tosses a quarter over 4. His intention is to hold the dose for a period of time more or less long, say one or two months. But look! What we are just witnessing is a 25% cut! As the general recommendations are to reduce between 5-10% every 10-14 days, this is definitely a huge reduction. Although buddie will be holding for one month or more, the sudden reduction at the moment will create a shock to his CNS. If I can interprete the vocal reaction of the organism in human words, it would be: "Hey chump! Enough joke! Slow down will you?". Depending on a number of different parameters, buddie might feel or not symptoms during this phase or those symptoms remain manageable for him.

 

One month elapsed then buddie tosses a new quarter over 3. It is now a 33% cut!! :( He starts to feel withdrawal symptoms, some are known, others were not present before. They might again be manageable or they might well be very unsettling. This is a way for the organism to protest against the damages buddie was self inflicting ("Good Heaven! You did it again didn't you? I can't stand it any more!").

 

Then following his schedule the heroic buddie grits his teeth and holds another month or more hoping that the body will adapt by miracles to this important change. Insomnia, foggy minds, blurred vision, dizziness, you name it, follow. Guess what! buddie cuts again! Again a new quarter off but this time over 2 and it results in a 50% cut!!!. :(

 

The wall mentioned by several "dry-cutters" appears when symptoms start from a no-symptoms or little-symptoms state, increase in intensity and stay persistent whatever dose you try to turn to or however long you hold. No way to stabilize and advance in the taper. One feels stuck. The damages inflicted to the CNS by abruptly decreasing benzo quantity appear permanent and there is no sign they will ever improve.

 

But is the fast reduction the only cause of the symptoms? Probably not! It has likely something to do with the tablet being used when split or reduced to fine powder instead of being swallowed entirely. Besides the main ingredient of benzo, the tablet has a number of built-in excipients like coating, disintegrator... that amongst other things allow the tablet to transit "harmlessly" through the stomach's acid environment and finish to the small intestine where it is targeted to operate to maximize its efficacy. Here it is broken down by the embedded disintegrator to deliver benzo that will be absorbed by the small intestine. By splitting the tablet to small parts, the coating can no longer offer the required protection and the internal part of the tablet are exposed to the mechanical and chemical agression in the stomach environment, loosing a part of its potency in the process. Together with the above mentioned steep taper cuts, this phenomenon further reduces the quantity of drug absorbed by the organism and contributes to exacerbate the symptoms due to withdrawal.

 

Things become suddenly clear when we read about how many similar situations got a happy end. It was when buddies, in a desperate attempt to get out of the mess, switched to Liquid Taper. With this method, there is no more constraint to reduce a quarter of a tablet at a time. The reduction becomes now a micro-reduction and buddie can easily and accurately taper with doses even lower than 1/16 of a tablet. Passing through this switch to liquid will definitely minimize suffering through smaller, more precise and stable reductions compared to dry cutting which becomes less precise as doses reduce. Needless to say that this controllable pace is essential to the success of the taper process.

 

Last, the solution when prepared with proper solvent like alcohol can preserve most of the drug efficacy. From a digestion process viewpoint, the solution will be considered as liquid at the introduction to the gastrointestinal tract as opposed to a solid meal. At that state it rapidly transits through the stomach to land in the small intestine with irrelevant loss before it get absorbed and end up in the plasma.

Hello.  Can you direct me as to how I can get a titration schedule for Clomazepam?

Hi Johnwantsoffbenzo

 

Go here: http://benzo.alwaysdata.net . Read the Help section first thing.

 

Have a good start!

Thanks! Really interesting.

I would love to be able to use liquid but after trying home made water formula and a pharmacy Ethanol based one, I could not stand the overnight nightmares. I have a 9 day, 3.500 kilometre trip in 3 weeks and am cutting a scrape from half of a 5 mg valium tablet. In day 5 of a window atm. Last month, I also had a 5 day window. The next cut, in about 5 days or so, will be another scrape from the other pointy end of the half tab. When I return from my trip, I will be trying a non alcohol based pharmacy liquid. I also ordered the Gemini 20 scales, should I be unable to tolerate the liquid. So frustrating..I get the feeling I could be out maybe by Christmas if I could just get the measurements right

Hi Chenka44

 

During liquid taper, when buddie prepares his/her own solution, a few common errors can occur:

1. Inappropriate type of solvent

2. Solution concentration (mg of benzo in 1 ml solution) and planned dose not synchronized, thus wrong quantity used.

3. Wrong interpretation of syringe indications thus wrong volume swallowed

4. Others...

 

When I first see you have used water to dissolve your Valium tablets I thought I may know the reason of your symptoms. But when I see that you used later on pharmacy Ethanol solvent I must drop this conclusion. Coming down in previous list, I wonder how you prepared your solution. How many tablets did you use each time? How much Ethanol based solvent? How much water added? I'm just curious to know how it looks like that solution that you hate so much.

 

In addition could you please share the way you calculated your reduction (percent/days) and the way you took the dose? Did you follow the Youtube fashion to draw and dispose or you draw and drink what you need? Was it a Cut and Hold taper or was it a daily micro taper?

 

Finally what kind of syringes did you use to deal with tiny amounts of solution?

 

I'm sorry to have so many questions. I just wanted to find the answer to this: what can we do to turn the failures of that type to success thus saving unnecessary suffering to taperers?

 

Many thanks.

I am sorry but those days are a haze. I should have , in hindsight, kept a journal. All I can say is, I think I was tapering 10% per fortnight and daily...I think. I updosed the pharmacy one by 5% to offset change over, as I read on here. First night I always get hideous nightmares, which linger all day. I gave to pharmacy one a second try a few weeks later and the nightmares went away after a few horrid day, but returned about a week after that and I could not handle it.

The syringes I used were average to tiny and indeed, I could not read the marks properly. I have since come to the conclusion it's incorrect dose discrepancies that keep me going round in circles. I have just about given up on daily microcuts of any description. Just need a way to correctly measure 5% atm from guesstimate of 2.4 ish of valium, when I come back. I am going to have to weigh the 5 mg pill, then scrape bits off, then weigh again to get myself a baseline to start from after my trip.UGH

.....the tablet has a number of built-in excipients like coating, disintegrator... that amongst other things allow the tablet to transit "harmlessly" through the stomach's acid environment and finish to the small intestine where it is targeted to operate to maximize its efficacy. Here it is broken down by the embedded disintegrator to deliver benzo that will be absorbed by the small intestine. By splitting the tablet to small parts, the coating can no longer offer the required protection and the internal part of the tablet are exposed to the mechanical and chemical agression in the stomach environment, loosing a part of its potency in the process.

 

Just to clarify; are you saying that once the whole tablets are correctly converted to proper liquid form, that the drug by-passes the stomach and goes directly to the small intestine, then is absorbed into the blood stream with little loss of efficacy?

 

Sorry, not saying your'e wrong, I just don't quite understand how the molecular gastronomy process was deduced?

 

 

Last, the solution when prepared with proper solvent like alcohol can preserve most of the drug efficacy. From a digestion process viewpoint, the solution will be considered as liquid at the introduction to the gastrointestinal tract as opposed to a solid meal. At that state it rapidly transits through the stomach to land in the small intestine with irrelevant loss before it get absorbed and end up in the plasma.

But wouldn't it mix with whatever solid food is in the stomach?

 

PS Very interesting post  Harmonee

Hi Harmonee

 

that the drug by-passes the stomach and goes directly to the small intestine,

While I wish it does so at least for benzo solution, it is not the way it happens. Everything pass first to the stomach before arriving to the small intestine. The point is when the drug is mixed with fatty milk, il will be treated as fatty food and remains longer in the stomach environment where it is chemically and mechanically treated before the processed food passes to the small intestine. Drug partially looses potency in this "harsh" process.

 

But wouldn't it mix with whatever solid food is in the stomach?

In the optimal cases, where your alcohol-based solution is taken with empty stomach, the time it transits thru the stomach is shortened as no special treatment is required. The loss will be minimal and absorption maximized. You can see the same phenomenon when you drink a glass of wine. With empty stomach it is easier that you feel intoxicated compared to when drunk in the middle of a solid meal. Same wine quantity but treated differently therefore felt differently.

 

Hope I answered your questions.

 

 

 

Hi Harmonee

 

that the drug by-passes the stomach and goes directly to the small intestine,

While I wish it does so at least for benzo solution, it is not the way it happens. Everything pass first to the stomach before arriving to the small intestine. The point is when the drug is mixed with fatty milk, il will be treated as fatty food and remains longer in the stomach environment where it is chemically and mechanically treated before the processed food passes to the small intestine. Drug partially looses potency in this "harsh" process.

 

But wouldn't it mix with whatever solid food is in the stomach?

In the optimal cases, where your alcohol-based solution is taken with empty stomach, the time it transits thru the stomach is shortened as no special treatment is required. The loss will be minimal and absorption maximized. You can see the same phenomenon when you drink a glass of wine. With empty stomach it is easier that you feel intoxicated compared to when drunk in the middle of a solid meal. Same wine quantity but treated differently therefore felt differently.

 

Hope I answered your questions.

 

Hi Jim and thanks for explaining, I was a little confused  Are you a Gastroenterologist by profession? Just curious  Harmonee

Hi Harmonee

 

Are you a Gastroenterologist by profession?

I'm not.

 

When I have a question spinning in my head, and I have too many, I make a research and do not stop until I have found an answer that convinces and quietens me. Some questions took much more time than others and not all questions found an answer. But I'm not in a hurry and this is a big advantage as I keep searching for the reasons. Sometimes the answer sprang up from nowhere.

 

Wish you all the best.

Hi Harmonee

 

Are you a Gastroenterologist by profession?

I'm not.

 

When I have a question spinning in my head, and I have too many, I make a research and do not stop until I have found an answer that convinces and quietens me. Some questions took much more time than others and not all questions found an answer. But I'm not in a hurry and this is a big advantage as I keep searching for the reasons. Sometimes the answer sprang up from nowhere.

 

Wish you all the best.

Good on you  I'm sure it will really help many people too  Harmonee

Hi Harmonee

 

that the drug by-passes the stomach and goes directly to the small intestine,

While I wish it does so at least for benzo solution, it is not the way it happens. Everything pass first to the stomach before arriving to the small intestine. The point is when the drug is mixed with fatty milk, il will be treated as fatty food and remains longer in the stomach environment where it is chemically and mechanically treated before the processed food passes to the small intestine. Drug partially looses potency in this "harsh" process.

 

But wouldn't it mix with whatever solid food is in the stomach?

So does it follow then that a snack before bedtime would lessen the effect of the liquid dose?

 

In the optimal cases, where your alcohol-based solution is taken with empty stomach, the time it transits thru the stomach is shortened as no special treatment is required. The loss will be minimal and absorption maximized. You can see the same phenomenon when you drink a glass of wine. With empty stomach it is easier that you feel intoxicated compared to when drunk in the middle of a solid meal. Same wine quantity but treated differently therefore felt differently.

 

Hope I answered your questions.

 

Hi Harmonee

 

that the drug by-passes the stomach and goes directly to the small intestine,

While I wish it does so at least for benzo solution, it is not the way it happens. Everything pass first to the stomach before arriving to the small intestine. The point is when the drug is mixed with fatty milk, il will be treated as fatty food and remains longer in the stomach environment where it is chemically and mechanically treated before the processed food passes to the small intestine. Drug partially looses potency in this "harsh" process.

 

But wouldn't it mix with whatever solid food is in the stomach?

In the optimal cases, where your alcohol-based solution is taken with empty stomach, the time it

transits thru the stomach is shortened as no special treatment is required. The loss will be minimal and absorption maximized. You can see the same phenomenon when you drink a glass of wine. With empty stomach it is easier that you feel intoxicated compared to when drunk in the middle of a solid meal. Same wine quantity but treated differently therefore felt differently.

 

Hope I answered your questions.

 

[/quote

Jim Hawk,

So does it follow then that a snack at bedtime would lessen the effect of the liquid dose?

Hi circlestar

 

So does it follow then that a snack at bedtime would lessen the effect of the liquid dose?

If taken 5, 10 minutes before the snack, the dose will have enough time to transit past the stomach and will not be processed together with the food.

Im not sure how half life and blood concentration affects all this..

 

But I pill split V and notice no difference between full or empty stomach, with or without food, whole or split tablet, or swallowed and disolved sublingual... The mystery remains for me...

 

I do notice the 0.25V cuts and high% reductions...

I minimise the impact of a cut by holding thoroughly through the waves, and prepare for the next cut with some extra hold time... The trick is to read ones own SX profile following a cut to determine future cuts... The continual goal being to match ones medicine intake to where ones healing is at...

-Often a work in progress... But it can be done for the most part...

 

I say for the most part because going by my SX profile, 0.5v to 0.25v -50% reduction has been significant, with many new but common SX arriving for the first time ever... This is where its all happening for me... To jump from 0.25v, 100% cut (1/8 tablet), would be a big risk (for me)...

There is the thought that at such a low dose there will be no real therapeutic effect happening, and the body wont notice it... But from what I have seen from a multitude of slow taperers and sensitive Buddies, is that it may well matter very much indeed...??

 

I do think DLMT is ideal for most, but some of us cant... For whatever reasons...

 

Wishing everyone the best taper possible...

 

 

 

Hi Cantfly

 

There is the thought that at such a low dose there will be no real therapeutic effect happening, and the body wont notice it

Probably it is so . But besides what the body can really feel and react, there is the psychological aspect of the thing where a small number of taperers would feel in safety only when going lower and lower until zero or near zero quantity is reached. It will take few more weeks/months to add to the taper duration but who can blame them? And do those additional few weeks/months really mean anything. especially when taperers have been under benzo for 15, 20 years? After all a human being remains an inseparable combination of body and mind (and soul) that need to be in harmony between them to grant a happy life.

 

Heal well and soon!

Hi Cantfly

 

There is the thought that at such a low dose there will be no real therapeutic effect happening, and the body wont notice it

Probably it is so . But besides what the body can really feel and react, there is the psychological aspect of the thing where a small number of taperers would feel in safety only when going lower and lower until zero or near zero quantity is reached. It will take few more weeks/months to add to the taper duration but who can blame them? And do those additional few weeks/months really mean anything. especially when taperers have been under benzo for 15, 20 years? After all a human being remains an inseparable combination of body and mind (and soul) that need to be in harmony between them to grant a happy life.

 

Heal well and soon!

Hi Jim..

I would say it would be a very wise and prudent "psychological aspect" for quite a number of buddies...!!

And if the goal is to heal rather than jump, Then I dont think tapering right down would add any time, possibly even save time... -but thats guess work in reality, for some it will for some it wont, kinda a moot point like you suggest..

-if I jump at 0.25v and its the same as previous cuts (even though its double the % ), I could expect it to take 2-3months to heal/stablise..  I guess most would DMLT that in a similar time...  Though of course some taper far slower with great success when stepping off...

But bear with me, just thinking out loud... -were I to jump (as I unwittingly did once) from 0.5v, I could have assumed it would have taken me 6 or more months to heal/stabalise, with SX that were beyond what I was prepared handle and esculating fast... Hmmm, -sounds very much like "Accute stage"...!!

So when someone says that in hindsight they probably could have jumped at 3v, I do have to wonder if they were playing a very different game to the majority of us... Yet this is continually supported by claimed high "therapeutic levels"... I am so glad most of us see well beyond this...

 

For me, I wont be healed when I step off.. -its about continued minimisation of SX as a whole, through my step off and  into further tapering.. but thats beyond the scope of topic...

 

Its been great to catch up,

This sure is a great community with so many people pulling together on a multitude of aspects  of this incidious medication..

 

My best to you...

 

 

 

Hi Cantfly

 

The day we jump, after months or years of tapering, that day could be considered as a milestone. From a psychological viewpoint it cannot be otherwise after all these suffering, all these long months/years of taper discipline, all the involved effort and not only from the direct taperer. Many never look back, a minority of others continue with protracted symptoms even years later. For those, jump or not does not make any difference as they keep on experiencing same symptoms as when they were under benzo.

 

Shall we expect an immediate cessation of symptoms after the last dose? Will we not be caught off guard if symptoms persist weeks/months after the last dose? We all know that we must quit benzo as a full recovery cannot begin until the last dust of benzo is eliminated from our body.  But we also know long years of benzo use have this poison profoundly impregnated in our body, our fat, our cells. It tends to stick around long after the last trace of a benzo leaves the body. After the drug is taken away, the body and brain begin to re-acclimate themselves to the new biochemical conditions but depending on a variety of factors including  the types of changes caused in the body and brain, the amplitude of them, this transition or healing process can in some cases take a lot of time.

 

Well I'm surely out of subject . To cut it short, the jump long time longed for, must be taken for what it actually is: no more benzo enters our body from now on. No more, no less. Time will do the rest.

 

Heal soon Cantfly!

 

 

Hi Cantfly

 

The day we jump, after months or years of tapering, that day could be considered as a milestone. From a psychological viewpoint it cannot be otherwise after all these suffering, all these long months/years of taper discipline, all the involved effort and not only from the direct taperer. Many never look back, a minority of others continue with protracted symptoms even years later. For those, jump or not does not make any difference as they keep on experiencing same symptoms as when they were under benzo.

 

Shall we expect an immediate cessation of symptoms after the last dose? Will we not be caught off guard if symptoms persist weeks/months after the last dose? We all know that we must quit benzo as a full recovery cannot begin until the last dust of benzo is eliminated from our body.  But we also know long years of benzo use have this poison profoundly impregnated in our body, our fat, our cells. It tends to stick around long after the last trace of a benzo leaves the body. After the drug is taken away, the body and brain begin to re-acclimate themselves to the new biochemical conditions but depending on a variety of factors including  the types of changes caused in the body and brain, the amplitude of them, this transition or healing process can in some cases take a lot of time.

 

Well I'm surely out of subject . To cut it short, the jump long time longed for, must be taken for what it actually is: no more benzo enters our body from now on. No more, no less. Time will do the rest.

 

Heal soon Cantfly!

Yes, the whole point of slow SX guided tapering... -To remove the medication and heal as we reduce.. I guess if one wishes to push on and heal med free post jump, thats a choice too... But it seems it can be a tad more unpleasant..

like you said, whats a bit of extra time spent at the end realy matter...

 

 

 

Jim.. I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this but interested in your take on this.... saw my pdoc today .. told her I was too drugged and needed to start the taper sooner than the 2 more weeks she wanted..  She agreed.. but wants me to cut half my mid day dose .. 5mg V and continue my 5mg a.m and p.m.  That sounds like too big a cut doesn't it.  or does it make sense to try and get rid of the mid dose quickly and then more slowly on the other two.  I'm taking 5 mg V 3x a day.  In the past... I'm ok with a cut for a day or two and then BP spikes and possible Afib and all that jazz.  What'ca think ?  and would I liquid taper big doses like the 15 mg for the day or just try to eliminate one 5mg dose at a time .  does any of this rambling make sense. 

Hi mary anna

 

but wants me to cut half my mid day dose .. 5mg V

2.5 mg over 15 mg is 17% cut. Then with the next cut that eliminates the midday dose, it becomes 20%. The general recommendations are to reduce between 5-10% every 10-14 days to minimize withdrawal symptoms. It is not excluded that you will experience symptoms.

 

does it make sense to try and get rid of the mid dose quickly and then more slowly on the other two

No, in my opinion. One taper pace for all 3 doses.

 

would I liquid taper big doses like the 15 mg for the day or just try to eliminate one 5mg dose at a time

1. Daily Micro Taper is not limited to small doses. Anyway you can liquid taper a portion of your dose while taking the rest of the dose in tablet (Eg: 5 mg AM tablet + (2.5 mg liquid + 2.5 mg tablet for midday) + 5 mg PM tablet). See point 1 in pic.

 

2. You can taper all 3 doses together or one dose at a time. See point 2 in pic.

 

Have a look here: http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/

 

 

Please come back if unclear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jim:

ok... unclear on this part:  (2.5 mg liquid + 2.5 mg tablet for midday)  doesn't 2.5 mg liquid + 2.5 mg tab = a 5 mg dose ? 

Hi mary anna

 

It was just an example to show that you can combine liquid and tablet during your taper. You cut from the liquid part while completing the dose with tablet. When the liquid part extinguishes, the tablet part will need to be transformed to liquid and tapered as liquid.

 

 

Ah .. ok  Thank you  !   

 

I'm on my way to being off this devil ... well long way since i'm at 15 mg V /day  .. but still on the way !  Yea !