Detox, please read

Hi folks,

 

In a bit of a pickle to put it lightly, and would love feedback.

 

I'm sick on valium, like bed bound sick at 32 years old.

You see, when I taper, my withdrawals are physical. Mostly, cyclical vomiting, burning skin, major fatigue, bone-crushing depression, blurry vision, no anxiety or panic. I had to stop doing any intense workouts due to getting symptoms the next couple of days. I sleep about 12-13 hours a day, I feel like I'm constantly over-sedated. I'm not stupid, but being "smart"hasn't really helped me, it's actually hindered me. Over analyzing, knowing the physiology, meds etc. My PDr., a great guy, is running out of options with me. We've been very aggressive, trying thyroid meds as I went slightly hypo, testosterone as it tanked, some anti depressants, and now I have a private consult with the guy who wrote Stahl's Essential Psychopharmacology. My PDr. and him are buds, actually my PDr. trained under him. I'm just having the hardest time trying to get off valium, I've tried cut and holds, DLMT, combinations of both, now I'm long holding at 7.4 mgs. It feels like poison to me, I feel super sick everyday. It's like my body is rejecting it and hates it.

 

To the point.

I have money, cashed out some stock that did well. Got about $100k. All expenses are fine, very supportive wife and family.

They want me off. I've looked everywhere, night and day, read so many forums about detox. I found two detox rehabs in Thailand that do inpatient and taper with the Ashton method. The one clinical lead is great, despises how fast most North America places rip you off, both meds and money wise. I'd have my own nice room, all meals, any meds I need, reiki, massage, acupuncture, huge pool, excursions, constant therapy both group and personal,nursing staff 24/7, psych Dr. that does symptomatic/Ashton style. He actually trained under her in the UK. I would be there about a year which would cost me approx. $70k. He wants to taper me off in  6-7 months and try to get through acute there.

 

Would any of you do this? What are your thoughts?

I would look at it like this...

If you can afford to spend 70K+ that you dont really need to on a nice tapering environment, then by all means go for it..

The problem being that if you have to taper at the speed some of us have to, that may end up at around 200K...

But you could also do a symptom based taper at home... If you are prepared to take it slow, listen to your body, and hold if needed, there is a good chance you can lead a relitivly normal life...

The idea being to slowly taper as your body heals and adjusts to the reducing medication...

 

All the best with your decision...

 

Was almost the dream scenario for me while going through CT and the subsequent w/d. I was pretty aggravated by Stevie Nicks' situation. Although I'm grateful she gave this ordeal a voice, I couldn't help but be pretty jealous that someone could just put life aside (in her case, 45 days), while someone else handled all the other stuff. I just didn't have that luxury.

 

After going through this and nearing the end of the rough stuff, I think I'd much rather opt for the supportive spouse & family over a detox place in a foreign land. I have neither of those things close to me as everyone lives out-of-state but I would have given 1/2 my injured brain to be close to them during all of this.

 

Personally, I'd knock off the other drugs in order to start healing though. I find our CNS is just too delicate to handle anything added in to try to alleviate the sxs.

 

Good luck in your decision, please keep us posted.

I would look at it like this...

If you can afford to spend 70K+ that you dont really need to on a nice tapering environment, then by all means go for it..

The problem being that if you have to taper at the speed some of us have to, that may end up at around 200K...

But you could also do a symptom based taper at home... If you are prepared to take it slow, listen to your body, and hold if needed, there is a good chance you can lead a relitivly normal life...

The idea being to slowly taper as your body heals and adjusts to the reducing medication...

 

All the best with your decision...

 

I subscribe to what Cantfly said. However, it could be that a healthy and stress free environment could really help your taper. But I would do it only if (1) I maintained control of the process and (2) it didn't involve any other psychoactive substances.

I read your posts. . .I just sounds like something very toxic is grabbing you. I am just asking. . . Do you drink diet anything. This would be anything with a sugar substitute. Aspertame especially. Sugar subs will make you feel like you are going to die. Stevia is the only safe replacement for real sugar. Google it !

 

They need to take the fake sugars off the market. It literally is killing people.

 

Edit: In the event you are ingesting sugar subs. It will take about 3 days to notice a difference when you stop. In two weeks you will absolutely be feeling much better. I only drink water.

 

Please read: https://draxe.com/artificial-sweeteners/

if the meds have turned paradoxical - i don't really see the benefit in tapering - i had to cold turkey off due to paradoxical reaction - can't imagine enduring taking another dose as it was setting off panic and making things worse.  i CT'd off much higher doses than you and i was healed in about 5 months by doing everything right related to diet and avoiding all other medications, etc.,  it was sheer hell but i made it out the other side and am doing amazing.

 

it sounds like you are hoping either of these environments are going to provide a more "gentle" experience but i honestly don't believe such a thing exists.  the body and endocrine system go through a nightmare coming off these meds and there is no way to soften the blow.  i personally would not spend that kind of money for something that isnt going to alleviate the tough months ahead - i'd save that money to go enjoy an amazing trip once you are through withdrawal

Thanks for the feedback thus far friends.

 

My diet is pretty on point when not throwing up. Organic and grass fed mostly, very low dairy and gluten, gotta have my fats though. Kind of like an improvised paleo. I do have ginger ale daily to help with the stomach.

 

I’ve felt for a long time I was having paradoxical reaction to the meds. After my panic subdued , I just got continuously sick, tired, and depressed. Never been depressed or this sick in my life. It’s a tough call. Money isn’t a problem, which I know I’m lucky for. I was literally sat down and collectively told, pick anywhere in the world and go get off. Now this may seem great, but as you know, it’s not. It’s terrifying. My friends and family want to come over and fix up our condo while I’m gone so when I return everything will be so much better and in place.

 

I’m at a real loss. I told myself and others in the beginning, I just wanted to disappear and get off the meds and return when I was better. Now that I’m faced with it, I’m a deer in headlights. I’ve never faced such evil before.

Tinyfish5,

 

Quoting your signature 'Unwanted steroids in ER almost killed me in January 2017. Several days in and out of hospital, giving me 2.5mgs of ativan a day to "Calm" the adverse reaction. Switched to 25 mgs valium in February and started the taper. Lost so much, gained panic and depression. No previous mental illness. Athlete/medic and honor student robbed overnight.

 

Currently 2018-

7.4mgs Valium

7.5 mgs Remeron

1/4 grain NDT

Testosterone

600mgs CBD isolate oil'

 

There is a thread about the HPA axis in the chewing the fat section. What did those steroids actually do ? I know that long term steroid use can shut down the HPA axis (interaction between brain and hormones), and it can take a long time to recover. The other question is what did the Ativan do ? I think that Ativan can also have a very strong effect on the HPA axis.

 

I'm not so sure that agressive hormone therapy is actually helping, due to the interaction between hormones and neurotransmitters.

 

CBD oil ? Perhaps a bit too much ? Remeron on top fo the diazepam ? ' private consult with the guy who wrote Stahl's Essential Psychopharmacology' I'm not sure if psychiatry is helpful ...

 

You were on Ativan for about a month. Then a long taper.

 

One of the most telling clues is the strong sedation/lots of sleep. Perhaps the HPA dysfunction would take a long time to recover, even 1-2 years after being off the drug.

So you've been on the benzos for about a year ? 7.4 mg diazepam isn't that much. Maybe it's best to quickly taper off ? Cold turkey may be a bit much, perhaps not.

 

You're male, 32 years old, no prior benzo use ? That's in your favor.

 

I just don't think they can do anything better or more for you, than you can get at home.  I hate being sick, yeah, but being away from my family would make me feel worse.  They are my main form of support.  For a few weeks, I can see, but for months...nope, I wouldn't do it.  Have you thought of maybe just going on cheap, long, extended vacation?  Like a motel near nature would be nice.  That's the kind of thing I imagine I would want.

 

I also would not want someone else in charge of my taper.  It feels like a circle of hell, so my only control is how and when I taper.  I feel like I need that for my sanity. 

Thanks again for the responses, as this is heavily weighing on my mind.

 

The steroids or prednisone caused me to into a-fib, akathisia, and panic for 7 days straight and almost v-tac.

I was in the hospital 4 days out of the 7 coming and going saying I feel like I'm dying. They would give me an ativan injection each time and tell me

it wasn't common for this to happen and to go home, and that I must have had pre-existing conditions and take vistaril. After thorough research, I was experiencing panic/psychosis from

prednisone. It's actually quite common in the dose they gave me. I brought in literature, my paramedic badge, and their tone changed immediately (sad).

The damage was done though, I was now dependent on benzos. I went to an outpatient clinic and discussed my symptoms with a decent psych., gave me script for ativan and told me

to taper off of it in a week and be done with it. I experienced inter-dose withdrawals immediately, which then I researched and found the ashton method. Asked to be switched over to valium

again bringing in literature, psych. agreed but was unaware of her. Valium stopped the inter-dose but depression happened like two weeks later.

I gave injections of these meds in the field but never took them before in my life. Never abused drugs, and drank maybe a few times a month, a pint or two tops after my baseball games.

I was actually headed for medical school prior to this, just took the MCATS and everything. It amazes me how much more I know now about the field and pharmacology, and truthfully,

I'm disgusted with the field. I've met so many uncaring/arrogant practitioners, therapists that have no idea how medication works, and it just sends a shiver down my spine.

There are some good ones, but it just seems so far and few in between.

And psych wards are awful places, I could not believe what took place once inside. I voluntarily went in to try to get off of valium.

 

All of this is crazy to me, and I hate it. I loathe taking these damn pills every night.

The remeron was added to help me sleep and stop vomiting so much. It worked great initially, and I stopped puking blood (had to be overnight endo) to see why so much blood loss.

Put me on protonix which helped then hindered.

I gained about 40lbs. from remeron, super dry mouth and eyes, and am now stuck at 7.5mg, nothing changed in my diet.

 

The CBD oil was an effort to get off of remeron for the anti nausea effects, it's been a big hit and miss though.

So, I live off of pieces of phenergan to stop it, but I just sleep. Zofran gave me suicidal migraines which is common.

 

Sometimes I feel like a mad scientist trying different things to help but come up short every time.

I've trusted the process of tapering, but damn it just feels so toxic to me.

My PDr. just told me that he believes that the meds just don't agree with me.

I have to admit, I do agree.

But I'm stuck.

 

 

 

 

Thanks again for the responses, as this is heavily weighing on my mind.

 

The steroids or prednisone caused me to into a-fib, akathisia, and panic for 7 days straight and almost v-tac.

I was in the hospital 4 days out of the 7 coming and going saying I feel like I'm dying. They would give me an ativan injection each time and tell me

it wasn't common for this to happen and to go home, and that I must have had pre-existing conditions and take vistaril. After thorough research, I was experiencing panic/psychosis from

prednisone. It's actually quite common in the dose they gave me. I brought in literature, my paramedic badge, and their tone changed immediately (sad).

The damage was done though, I was now dependent on benzos. I went to an outpatient clinic and discussed my symptoms with a decent psych., gave me script for ativan and told me

to taper off of it in a week and be done with it. I experienced inter-dose withdrawals immediately, which then I researched and found the ashton method. Asked to be switched over to valium

again bringing in literature, psych. agreed but was unaware of her. Valium stopped the inter-dose but depression happened like two weeks later.

I gave injections of these meds in the field but never took them before in my life. Never abused drugs, and drank maybe a few times a month, a pint or two tops after my baseball games.

I was actually headed for medical school prior to this, just took the MCATS and everything. It amazes me how much more I know now about the field and pharmacology, and truthfully,

I'm disgusted with the field. I've met so many uncaring/arrogant practitioners, therapists that have no idea how medication works, and it just sends a shiver down my spine.

There are some good ones, but it just seems so far and few in between.

And psych wards are awful places, I could not believe what took place once inside. I voluntarily went in to try to get off of valium.

 

All of this is crazy to me, and I hate it. I loathe taking these damn pills every night.

The remeron was added to help me sleep and stop vomiting so much. It worked great initially, and I stopped puking blood (had to be overnight endo) to see why so much blood loss.

Put me on protonix which helped then hindered.

I gained about 40lbs. from remeron, super dry mouth and eyes, and am now stuck at 7.5mg, nothing changed in my diet.

 

The CBD oil was an effort to get off of remeron for the anti nausea effects, it's been a big hit and miss though.

So, I live off of pieces of phenergan to stop it, but I just sleep. Zofran gave me suicidal migraines which is common.

 

Sometimes I feel like a mad scientist trying different things to help but come up short every time.

I've trusted the process of tapering, but damn it just feels so toxic to me.

My PDr. just told me that he believes that the meds just don't agree with me.

I have to admit, I do agree.

But I'm stuck.

I do have to Appologise Fishy,

I didnt grasp the the complexity of your situation when I read your initial post...

 

I have read of this before, but have no idea if a solition was found...

I think the general idea was to get off med quick (yet safe) rather than an SX based taper...

But I dont know if this was possible or even right...??

 

Perhaps with the difficulties involved it might be best remaining in your own environment, with your own control...

But this would weigh against your confidence in this Dr and the facility...

 

I hope you find answers, and would love to know your progress and outcome...

 

My Best...

 

Thanks, Cantfly.

 

Love your avatar. Leonardo was my favorite turtle. I grew up in the 90s as a kid and those times were golden! The turtles cereal is little known but was my favorite.

 

Yeah, I'm torn. I've been in my own environment and although is comfortable, I don't know how healing it is.

I seem to stay stuck on doses and sleep a lot.

 

Going would be super hard on several levels. But it would give my wife time to breathe and refresh,

it's hard on her seeing her husband this way, and it's hard on me to want to give her her husband back. My folks and her folks would fix up our entire condo.

I might be better off going, at least the director over there is adamant about a slow taper with other meds only when need i.e. clonidine, atenolol, benadryl etc.

The only catch is it's for addicts. Non 12 step, but still addicts. Not an addict, but I've yet to find a detox/rehab place for chemically dependent individuals.

 

Fishy-  I think after all this is over, maybe you would be a more amazing doctor than most.  Just throwing that out there.

 

I DO understand the urge to go away and spare your family the pain.  One thing I have found super helpful for my husband and I, is ME going to stay with my parents. I could be going to stay with my sister or Aunt or anyone really, but I have gone to stay with my parents and found it very helpful. 

 

It does sound like you might still being effected by the prednisone.  Funny side note,  I took prednisone for a few weeks and felt pretty great during that time.  Weird, eh? 

 

There are few people on BB who have tried to get support from NA and/or AA and it seems like it's not really that great for us, cause the whole addict thing is really just plain different.  I would be really wary to give $70K to anyone.  I feel like you are desperate and they would be taking advantage of you.  There's also plenty of stories about detoxes and rehabs on the boards here. 

Fishy-  I think after all this is over, maybe you would be a more amazing doctor than most.  Just throwing that out there.

 

I DO understand the urge to go away and spare your family the pain.  One thing I have found super helpful for my husband and I, is ME going to stay with my parents. I could be going to stay with my sister or Aunt or anyone really, but I have gone to stay with my parents and found it very helpful. 

 

It does sound like you might still being effected by the prednisone.  Funny side note,  I took prednisone for a few weeks and felt pretty great during that time.  Weird, eh? 

 

There are few people on BB who have tried to get support from NA and/or AA and it seems like it's not really that great for us, cause the whole addict thing is really just plain different.  I would be really wary to give $70K to anyone.  I feel like you are desperate and they would be taking advantage of you.  There's also plenty of stories about detoxes and rehabs on the boards here.

Good Post Greencup..!!

 

Hi Fish...

I missed most of the Ninja Turtle stuff due to living too remote. Its perfect though, in so many ways.. -A very personal thing, not private though...

I was riding a Green Kawasaki ZX10 (ninja) when I got hit...  (B3 Pelvic and some..)

Funny I met the same paramedic that saved me recently... Bringing my son through with 2x off end distal radius fractures... We had an interesting convo..!!

 

Also I am a Turtle with tapering, Slow and steady...

 

Just for the record, anyone reading this in the future... -I would Not be paying Up Front... And THAT would complicate things no end..!!

 

Best wishes..

 

How are you doing Fishy?

Can't you just go slowly down yourself? If the place is for addicts, that doesn't bode well for anyone in benzo withdrawal. Going slowly at this rate, I feel, would be the best thing for a damaged CNS system. I've made many mistakes, and I realize that a slow, steady rate is best. You might talk with dm123 in chewing the fat. He has a lot of knowledge and is on Valium also, going down at a very reasonable rate.

 

 

From my experience, the less professional healthcare people involved in this THE BETTER! Your not going to feel any better than you would if you just eat clean and find some good distractions: walking when you can, playing with a dog, art etc.

 

This is a horrible experience on its own without adding more expence and manipulation into the mix.

 

A supportive family is absolutely the best gift you can have during this.

 

Good luck.

Still here.

 

So sick of it all. Hate taking these f-ing pills.

 

Sleep, throw up, sweat, cry, mouth and eyes dry, asthma way worse, repeat.

On many supplements, bipap, biotene, gingerale, etc.

 

This isn't living, it's barely existing.

Trying to be strong but I'm just so sick of psych meds and diagnoses and poly-drugging blah, blah, blah.

 

If I knew it wouldn't kill me, and I could handle it, I'd let a fast detox take place.

It's like putting in nails in your own coffin taking these pills every night.

 

Family is on board, both mine and wife's, has read everything I've given them including Ashton, watched all the benzo youtube videos. We all feel "stuck", and I'm in the middle of it all. The say go to rehab/detox, I research for hundreds of hours trying to find the right one, this goes in repeat too.

 

You know what's really messed up?!

Money isn't a problem, and the best I can find is in Thailand. And I'm what my family calls the "King of research".

 

Very lost, confused, hopeless, and wishing it was heroin or opiates or anything else.

I was never ever addicted to anything but sports, fishing, and life.

Soooo lame.

If you are feeling this bad, you might consider holding for a bit.  I'm sorry you are suffering so much right now.

Thanks Green Cup.

 

I've been holding for months now.

 

There hasn't been one time on the meds where I felt ok or stable.

 

Just ill. All the time.

Still here.

 

So sick of it all. Hate taking these f-ing pills.

 

Sleep, throw up, sweat, cry, mouth and eyes dry, asthma way worse, repeat.

On many supplements, bipap, biotene, gingerale, etc.

 

This isn't living, it's barely existing.

Trying to be strong but I'm just so sick of psych meds and diagnoses and poly-drugging blah, blah, blah.

 

If I knew it wouldn't kill me, and I could handle it, I'd let a fast detox take place.

It's like putting in nails in your own coffin taking these pills every night.

 

Family is on board, both mine and wife's, has read everything I've given them including Ashton, watched all the benzo youtube videos. We all feel "stuck", and I'm in the middle of it all. The say go to rehab/detox, I research for hundreds of hours trying to find the right one, this goes in repeat too.

 

You know what's really messed up?!

Money isn't a problem, and the best I can find is in Thailand. And I'm what my family calls the "King of research".

 

Very lost, confused, hopeless, and wishing it was heroin or opiates or anything else.

I was never ever addicted to anything but sports, fishing, and life.

Soooo lame.

Hi Fish,

So sorry to hear you are still stuck, and im guessing no improvment...?

I do hope you find the right place, and way out of this horrid situation...

I know I would be keen to get off med fairly quick too...

Hang in there, keep looking...

 

Thanks Green Cup.

 

I've been holding for months now.

 

There hasn't been one time on the meds where I felt ok or stable.

 

Just ill. All the time.

 

 

There is no such thing as “holding til you stabalize” because of tolerance withdrawl. If we “stabalized” we wouldnt need to get off the damn things to begin with. You will be in tolerance withdrawal your entire taper. Is it difficult being around family and friends while you are in this condition? Sometimes the reaponsibilities of being in a family/social unit can make the wd more difficult. If that is your case i recommend you go to the luxury spa/detox facility even though it wont seem very luxurious while you are kicking. Good luck!

Thanks all. I need support right now.

 

Honestly, yes, it is very difficult being around my family and wife.

Not because they are unsupportive, they are very supportive, but because they have a life.

I'm enveloped in the sounds around me, of people living their lives, enjoying their summer, and I'm comatose.

I just constantly picture how things were, listening to Beach Boys in the summer in my truck pulling up to surf for hours.

This has got to be tolerance or the meds are just poison to my body now.

I've lost like 30 painful lbs. in 3 months, I eat once a day at night.

This coming from a guy who played linebacker in arena football and ate like an elephant.

 

I play baseball on Sundays and am bed bound the rest of the days.

I managed to take my wife out to sushi and see Incredibles 2 last night.

No anxiety, just sick. Had some heart palps at 1am, decided to take a 6mg piece of atenolol, got up today and fainted.

It was one of those faints that just takes over and the next thing you know you're waking up on the ground in pain

dazed and confused. From 6mg. Ugh. First time trying the blocker, slept great, palps gone, but BP average 100/60, usually 135/75.

 

I just keep thinking, what if I'm one of those cases where Ashton says to get of the meds as quick as you can.

My spouse's family are Dr's and nurses, they're horrified. They tell me going off the meds has got to be better

than what I'm going through now. They say how can it get worse? I always say the same, it can always get worse.

It doesn't help that our family friend who is a great Occupational Therapist got addicted to xanax.

Up to 8mg xanax a day, off in detox at The Willows in one month, fine in 2 months.

They keep comparing it. I try to tell them the inverse relationship to those who are addicted, vs. those that are dependent,

and the usual healing times. I say look, we're all people of science, and getting off these meds follows no such linear paths.

It's hard to fathom. 

 

Truly, disgusting.

 

 

 

Thanks Green Cup.

 

I've been holding for months now.

 

There hasn't been one time on the meds where I felt ok or stable.

 

Just ill. All the time.

 

 

There is no such thing as “holding til you stabalize” because of tolerance withdrawl. If we “stabalized” we wouldnt need to get off the damn things to begin with. You will be in tolerance withdrawal your entire taper. Is it difficult being around family and friends while you are in this condition? Sometimes the reaponsibilities of being in a family/social unit can make the wd more difficult. If that is your case i recommend you go to the luxury spa/detox facility even though it wont seem very luxurious while you are kicking. Good luck!

I dont agree with this... I think it is subjective...

In this case perhaps so, that was my humble opinion, and based on Fishes posting history.. But I am not in his shoes and living it...

It also depends on ones definition of "Stable"...

I know many that are doing or have done a slow SX based taper would consider playing sport and movies with dinner to be somewhat stable, but again thats only a piece of the story... (Fish, I know its more complicated than that for you)

When I aim for stability after a cut, I hold until I feel ok about it all, -where I can do the things I need to, and most of the things I want... Tolerance has never been an issue for ME, and I tend to cut after about a month of feeling good...

If I defined stable as being able to train for climbing a mountain, then no, I dont think that would be obtainable for ME while tapering...

 

Many have done very Long Holds of many months (some, years), felt good, and continued to taper very slowly with great success... Tolerance doesnt seem to be an issue up to this point.. perhaps if they continued to hold well beyond stable... But isnt that reinstatment...?

 

We are all different, as are our situations and history...

 

I am sure there are people that just cant get stable, and I Know there are people that can...

 

 

 

Yeah, stability is certainly subjective. You’re all trying to help though.

 

There’s certainly more to my story, as there is with everyone.

I guess compared to my life previous, this is being disabled.

Gym out, martial arts out, coffe out, school online and minimal, volunteer at hospital and soup kitchen out, hiking out, search and rescue out etc.

 

I try for my sake to make it to baseball and a date with my wife, but damn it’s getting hard.

The thing is, I have nothing to compare this to.

I have zero previous knowledge of tolerance or an illness like this.

Normally, if I felt like this, I’d quit, like a job or relationship or drug. But I can’t.

In fact, I would tell a friend or family member to quit, like yesterday.

I know too much now, and feel really trapped. That’s when I get hopeless and or hostile.

Right now I’m both. Chained to a drug that I never wanted and pissed.

Slamming myself against glass prison walls that just throw me to the floor.

 

I want to slow taper but damn I just feel so ill.

The Thailand detox wants to do a liquid daily taper for 7-8 months.

Just. So. Lost