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Does this mean we are doomed?


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http://w-bad.org/reactions-setbacks

 

If you read everything on this site (I just went there to find a list of drugs to avoid) it seems we are doomed for life and we have brain damage and will never heal because our genes are altered and our cns permanently screwed, making it so I will have PAWS forever even to an insignificant stressor like someone yells at me. Is this true? If so, I see no reason to continue.

 

"One mechanism which might be involved in long-term (and possibly permanent) effects of benzodiazepines is an alteration in the activity of benzodiazepine receptors in brain GABA neurones. These receptors down-regulate (become fewer) as tolerance to benzodiazepines develop with chronic use. Such down-regulation is a homeostatic response of the body to the constant presence of the drugs. Since benzodiazepines themselves enhance the actions of GABA, extra benzodiazepine receptors are no longer needed, so many are, in effect, discarded. These down-regulated receptors are absorbed into neurones where, over time, they undergo various changes including alterations in gene expression. When these receptors are slowly reinstated after drug withdrawal, they may return in a slightly altered form. They may not be quite so efficient as before in increasing the actions of GABA, the natural ‘calming’ neurotransmitter. As a result, the brain may be generally less sensitive to GABA and the individual is left with heightened central nervous system excitability and increased sensitivity to stress. Molecular biologists point out that changes in gene expression can be very slow, or even unable, to reverse…"

 

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No. Gaba receptors do heal over time. Too many success stories on YouTube, many articles such Stevie Nix and on here to say any differently. Some people heal faster than others, but I know for sure I'm healing based on what I used to take in February and what I'm taking now to sleep. Plus symptoms are way less.  I would say there are instances of people who may have taken it their entire life or drank and took other medications that could contribute to them not healing.
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Just to give you an idea, I was taking this in February to sleep and slept from 8:30-3:30. Do you see all those Benzos? I was going through severe withdrawl even taking that. Every symptom on the list hit me.

                  5mg melatonin

                10 pm .5 xanex

                8:30 pm restoril 30mg

                  50mg amnitriptiline

 

I took this last night and slept an entire 8 hrs straight with no wake ups.

                    .03 klonipone

                      5mg mirtazapine

 

That shows that time heals.

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I have been on and off of them my whole life. I have been on many, many antidepressants, taken many opiates, cocaine, z-drugs, etc., etc. Had ECT. Does this mean I am doomed? You just said there are instances.
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I have been on and off of them my whole life. I have been on many, many antidepressants, taken many opiates, cocaine, z-drugs, etc., etc. Had ECT. Does this mean I am doomed? You just said there are instances.

 

No because there are also people that have taken them their whole life and they are not doomed. They still healed. Every one is different. My mom has been on restoril for 30 years and she has went two weeks without it and still slept some. Everyone is different. No two people are the same.

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It doesn't even look like you were on them consitantly either. You just started tapering and haven't even got off yet.
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I am going to be honest with you Caterm you are scaring yourself and you are clearly making yourself worse.Stop thinking about paws etc you do not know what the future is none of us do.l can only go by my experience l know l will heal given enough time.The brain is an amazing organ which can and does repair itself and even so called experts do not understand why and how it works.
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We all start out on this journey not knowing where it will end.  We hope for the best outcome possible.  If you do become protracted, it will gradually get easier ... that is the typical pattern.  You are far better to be off these drugs so you are doing the right thing trying to become drug free.  I see you started on medication at a young age and have been on and off medication for many years.  I do hope this time you will be able to break free from it.  Those of us who are protracted learn to cope along the way ... some symptoms can be long-lasting but ways can be found to cope with most of them.  you are neither doomed nor is there some utopia at the end of this .. it will be somewhere in between just like life itself. 

 

Best wishes

 

Fiona  :thumbsup:

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No, you're definitely not doomed.  The body is incredibly resilient, and you will recover with time.  There are a lot of scary stories online, so try to focus on what your body is telling you rather than what the internet tells you your body should tell you.
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http://w-bad.org/reactions-setbacks

 

If you read everything on this site (I just went there to find a list of drugs to avoid) it seems we are doomed for life and we have brain damage and will never heal because our genes are altered and our cns permanently screwed, making it so I will have PAWS forever even to an insignificant stressor like someone yells at me. Is this true? If so, I see no reason to continue.

 

"One mechanism which might be involved in long-term (and possibly permanent) effects of benzodiazepines is an alteration in the activity of benzodiazepine receptors in brain GABA neurones. These receptors down-regulate (become fewer) as tolerance to benzodiazepines develop with chronic use. Such down-regulation is a homeostatic response of the body to the constant presence of the drugs. Since benzodiazepines themselves enhance the actions of GABA, extra benzodiazepine receptors are no longer needed, so many are, in effect, discarded. These down-regulated receptors are absorbed into neurones where, over time, they undergo various changes including alterations in gene expression. When these receptors are slowly reinstated after drug withdrawal, they may return in a slightly altered form. They may not be quite so efficient as before in increasing the actions of GABA, the natural ‘calming’ neurotransmitter. As a result, the brain may be generally less sensitive to GABA and the individual is left with heightened central nervous system excitability and increased sensitivity to stress. Molecular biologists point out that changes in gene expression can be very slow, or even unable, to reverse…"

 

I'd like to see some valid studies with evidence that benzo use results in changes in gene expression in down-regulated receptors.

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Hey guys! Just wanted to pop in and offer some hope! I was on benzos for the better part of 15 years. It was hell coming off. HELL.

 

But I'm doing REALLY well now. GREAT, in fact. Feel basically normal and I never thought I'd say that.

 

You can see in my signature that I suffered horribly. And this was just the last time coming off. Which was the all-time worst.

 

IT GETS BETTER! I promise it does!

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You are not doomed. We all heal. Its just a matter of time. Try to focus on positive stories of people who have healed.
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Nobody knows how our brain truly heals, they are guessing. From my part I don't care what they say, I'm sick of it. They could have said it before I stated taking this #$&/#!* benzo or to the &#*!#/&! doctors that continue prescribing it! So, with or without Gaba, receptors and so on I will go on with my life.
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In my opinion it is more than gaba receptors, it is brain damage. However, for most people brain damage is partially or completely reversible.

 

MOST is the keyword though, a lot of people have permanent symptoms after benzos, like Tinnitus and visual issues, not everyone heals.

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[22...]

http://w-bad.org/reactions-setbacks

 

If you read everything on this site (I just went there to find a list of drugs to avoid) it seems we are doomed for life and we have brain damage and will never heal because our genes are altered and our cns permanently screwed, making it so I will have PAWS forever even to an insignificant stressor like someone yells at me. Is this true? If so, I see no reason to continue.

 

"One mechanism which might be involved in long-term (and possibly permanent) effects of benzodiazepines is an alteration in the activity of benzodiazepine receptors in brain GABA neurones. These receptors down-regulate (become fewer) as tolerance to benzodiazepines develop with chronic use. Such down-regulation is a homeostatic response of the body to the constant presence of the drugs. Since benzodiazepines themselves enhance the actions of GABA, extra benzodiazepine receptors are no longer needed, so many are, in effect, discarded. These down-regulated receptors are absorbed into neurones where, over time, they undergo various changes including alterations in gene expression. When these receptors are slowly reinstated after drug withdrawal, they may return in a slightly altered form. They may not be quite so efficient as before in increasing the actions of GABA, the natural ‘calming’ neurotransmitter. As a result, the brain may be generally less sensitive to GABA and the individual is left with heightened central nervous system excitability and increased sensitivity to stress. Molecular biologists point out that changes in gene expression can be very slow, or even unable, to reverse…"

 

I suspect there are instances where changes in gene expression are not reversible.  That doesn't mean that's the situation with any genes involved in GABAA biosynthesis.  That sentence should not appear in this context without actual evidence.  All it serves to do is to scare people who really don't need more scaring.

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I think there's some truth to it for very sensitive persons.

2.5 years off clonazepam i'm still having myoclonic jerks and my stress tolerance is not quite the same as pre-benzo's.

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It would help to explain the extreme sensitivity that some people still have many years out and the severity of waves experienced.  We keep tying to find reasons for these phenomena. 
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http://w-bad.org/reactions-setbacks

 

If you read everything on this site (I just went there to find a list of drugs to avoid) it seems we are doomed for life and we have brain damage and will never heal because our genes are altered and our cns permanently screwed, making it so I will have PAWS forever even to an insignificant stressor like someone yells at me. Is this true? If so, I see no reason to continue.

 

"One mechanism which might be involved in long-term (and possibly permanent) effects of benzodiazepines is an alteration in the activity of benzodiazepine receptors in brain GABA neurones. These receptors down-regulate (become fewer) as tolerance to benzodiazepines develop with chronic use. Such down-regulation is a homeostatic response of the body to the constant presence of the drugs. Since benzodiazepines themselves enhance the actions of GABA, extra benzodiazepine receptors are no longer needed, so many are, in effect, discarded. These down-regulated receptors are absorbed into neurones where, over time, they undergo various changes including alterations in gene expression. When these receptors are slowly reinstated after drug withdrawal, they may return in a slightly altered form. They may not be quite so efficient as before in increasing the actions of GABA, the natural ‘calming’ neurotransmitter. As a result, the brain may be generally less sensitive to GABA and the individual is left with heightened central nervous system excitability and increased sensitivity to stress. Molecular biologists point out that changes in gene expression can be very slow, or even unable, to reverse…"

 

I suspect there are instances where changes in gene expression are not reversible.  That doesn't mean that's the situation with any genes involved in GABAA biosynthesis.  That sentence should not appear in this context without actual evidence.  All it serves to do is to scare people who really don't need more scaring.

What does alterations in gene expression really mean? I’m confused...sorry.....I agree that they should at least state whether this article on their website is just a theory or has it been scientifically validly proven....

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Just a thing I've noticed as I've got older. You read things like that and see:

 

"Could be"

"May be"

"Might be"

"One small study found..."  etc, etc.

 

Every time you read stuff like that, think "Hmmm, "Could be' isn't a statement of fact. For every "Might be" there is a "Might not be".

 

This is rife in the media in general. Try taking it with a pinch of salt and, like Stut says, stop scaring yourself.

 

Good Luck!

 

 

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[22...]

A discussion of gene expression alteration could take a long time.  Maybe Google epigenetics to get some feel for it.  There's lots of publications on pharmaceutical (and recreational) drug-induced epigenetics.

 

Scientists often use words like could, tend, might, likely, and probably because we often deal with probabilities and correlations.  For example, a tossed nickel will tend to land in a heads or tails configuration, but it's not always the case.  In a small number of outcomes, the coin will actually land on its side.  Biology is a lot more complex than tossing a coin.  Simple statements of fact rarely explain things properly.

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http://w-bad.org/reactions-setbacks

 

If you read everything on this site (I just went there to find a list of drugs to avoid) it seems we are doomed for life and we have brain damage and will never heal because our genes are altered and our cns permanently screwed, making it so I will have PAWS forever even to an insignificant stressor like someone yells at me. Is this true? If so, I see no reason to continue.

 

"One mechanism which might be involved in long-term (and possibly permanent) effects of benzodiazepines is an alteration in the activity of benzodiazepine receptors in brain GABA neurones. These receptors down-regulate (become fewer) as tolerance to benzodiazepines develop with chronic use. Such down-regulation is a homeostatic response of the body to the constant presence of the drugs. Since benzodiazepines themselves enhance the actions of GABA, extra benzodiazepine receptors are no longer needed, so many are, in effect, discarded. These down-regulated receptors are absorbed into neurones where, over time, they undergo various changes including alterations in gene expression. When these receptors are slowly reinstated after drug withdrawal, they may return in a slightly altered form. They may not be quite so efficient as before in increasing the actions of GABA, the natural ‘calming’ neurotransmitter. As a result, the brain may be generally less sensitive to GABA and the individual is left with heightened central nervous system excitability and increased sensitivity to stress. Molecular biologists point out that changes in gene expression can be very slow, or even unable, to reverse…"

 

I suspect there are instances where changes in gene expression are not reversible.  That doesn't mean that's the situation with any genes involved in GABAA biosynthesis.  That sentence should not appear in this context without actual evidence.  All it serves to do is to scare people who really don't need more scaring.

What does alterations in gene expression really mean? I’m confused...sorry.....I agree that they should at least state whether this article on their website is just a theory or has it been scientifically validly proven....

 

It looks like the statement about irreversible changes in receptor gene expression in the quoted article was very general, misleading and out of context.  If the author is going to make that kind of statement in reference to the effects of benzo use, he'd better back it up some solid research.

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http://w-bad.org/reactions-setbacks

 

If you read everything on this site (I just went there to find a list of drugs to avoid) it seems we are doomed for life and we have brain damage and will never heal because our genes are altered and our cns permanently screwed, making it so I will have PAWS forever even to an insignificant stressor like someone yells at me. Is this true? If so, I see no reason to continue.

 

"One mechanism which might be involved in long-term (and possibly permanent) effects of benzodiazepines is an alteration in the activity of benzodiazepine receptors in brain GABA neurones. These receptors down-regulate (become fewer) as tolerance to benzodiazepines develop with chronic use. Such down-regulation is a homeostatic response of the body to the constant presence of the drugs. Since benzodiazepines themselves enhance the actions of GABA, extra benzodiazepine receptors are no longer needed, so many are, in effect, discarded. These down-regulated receptors are absorbed into neurones where, over time, they undergo various changes including alterations in gene expression. When these receptors are slowly reinstated after drug withdrawal, they may return in a slightly altered form. They may not be quite so efficient as before in increasing the actions of GABA, the natural ‘calming’ neurotransmitter. As a result, the brain may be generally less sensitive to GABA and the individual is left with heightened central nervous system excitability and increased sensitivity to stress. Molecular biologists point out that changes in gene expression can be very slow, or even unable, to reverse…"

 

I suspect there are instances where changes in gene expression are not reversible.  That doesn't mean that's the situation with any genes involved in GABAA biosynthesis.  That sentence should not appear in this context without actual evidence.  All it serves to do is to scare people who really don't need more scaring.

What does alterations in gene expression really mean? I’m confused...sorry.....I agree that they should at least state whether this article on their website is just a theory or has it been scientifically validly proven....

 

Alterations in gene expression as a result of environmental changes is called an epigenetic alteration.  After spending a year in space, astronaut Scott Kelly experienced thousands of epigenetic changes.  Read here:  https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2017/11/09/nasa-twins-study-thousands-epigenetic-changes-astronaut-scott-kelly/

 

Epigenetics is real and pretty darned amazing.  But does it apply to benzo use and the difficulty of withdrawing and healing?  I don't think anyone knows the answer to this yet. 

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