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Brain damage? Or just down regulated gaba receptors?


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Just out of curiosity, I wanted some clarification on how benzos affect brain. From what I understand, benzos cause the calming GABA receptors to become overactive. The brain somehow senses this very quickly... and for god knows what reason, decides to turn the receptor site off? The brain is left with fewer functioning GABA receptors and begins to malfunction in a dangerous way if someone stops taking the drug. This down regulation lasts years and causes extreme withdrawal symptoms. Supposedly over time the brain slowly realizes this and reluctantly turns the receptor sites back on. After a number of years a person's GABA receptors will finish up regulating and they will finally feel normal again.

 

I explained this to my benzo wise psychiatrist and he says it's more likely that the benzo pills actually destroy the GABA receptors over time. He also mentioned that many psychiatric drugs shrink the brain and cause damage elsewhere on such a microscopic level that MRI's couldn't possibly capture the damage.

 

Therefore I believe it's much easier to think of benzo withdrawal as straight up brain damage. It's highly likely the brain is having to remove all the destroyed GABA receptors and replace them with new GABA receptors. If this is even possible? Think of it like a lawn that's had gallons of weed killer poured on it during a drought. The grass sucked up the only available liquid and now most of lawn is dead.

 

Even this benzo wise doc doesn't know how long it'll take to heal. He said everyone stops coming in for appointments once they jump off benzos. He has no way to confirm how his other patients are doing since they aren't talking to him. I told him that's because most of them have become half dead vegetables that can't get out of bed, let alone drive to appointments. He said he wants to help, but isn't sure there's much he can do other prescribe other meds like hydroxizine to combat the anxiety.

 

Anyways, I'm currently dealing with debilitating derealization 24/7. Hoping this brain damage is reversible. Even an 80 year old benzo wise psychiatrist expert that's been studying the negative impact of certain psychiatric drugs for decades isn't sure. Which seems really strange considering how much time he's had on his hands. Though he was a massive stoner. I'm guessing he was too busy getting baked lol.

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I told him that's because most of them have become half dead vegetables that can't get out of bed, let alone drive to appointments.

 

Spot on...

 

Have you read Peter Breggin's books?

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It’s just GABA down regulating. I was on for 10 years and am more “woke” than I have ever been (benzo cloud lifted). I can’t agree with that brain damage assessment.
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i don't agree at all.

 

I work in drug development and have a pretty good understanding of what happens and all CNS meds have a similar action.  these meds create an increase in the neurotransmitter related to the imbalance it is trying to correct - in doing so - the brain recognizes there is more of whatever that is and begins to shut down the receptors - over time - the body then becomes even less able to deal with the imbalance - leading to a need to increase the dose to get the same effect.  in the case of benzos though - the damage is worse because the body is very smart - having too much GABA threatens the body's ability to work - so  - in response - it begins to up regulate glutamate to force the body to try to overcome the sedation.    so - if a person just took a benzo once a month or so on a really bad day - there would be no problem.  its when they are used day after day - the body is smart and realizes it cannot function properly.

 

my guess is that the actual damage only lasts a few months but because people start messing with supplements to try to hold off the horrific symptoms - the recovery is impaired or they take other CNS meds which now begin to cause other types of impairments

 

there is no question all of us who have had this happen are genetically prone to a worse scenario.  if we were able to do a study - we'd likely find out that just about all of us have hte MAO, COMT MTHFR DAO CBS and other gene SNPs.  because of those - you are already prone to an imbalance and also cannot break down things like adrenaline properly leading to more extreme symptoms.

 

since i have seen people who've used these meds 10-20 yrs at high doses recover in a few months - i am much less prone to believing its the dose or length of exposure but much more so genetics that dictate how this goes.

 

no question those who go gluten, dairy, sugar and caffeine free also recover much more quickly because doing so reduces the amount of distress the body is under during these withdrawal conditions

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my guess is that the actual damage only lasts a few months but because people start messing with supplements to try to hold off the horrific symptoms - the recovery is impaired or they take other CNS meds which now begin to cause other types of impairments

 

 

I wonder why I had few symptoms during tapering (3 months ) and had minor issues for the next six months, then I entered into acute and was desperately ill for the next 3 years ..  so very desperately ill, mind disassociated from brain and body, bedridden .. tortured

 

Prof Malcolm Lader, UK, wrote to me .. he said benzodiazepines may change the architecture of the cells over time but I assume this is just another theory

 

The idea that the receptors have to grow back would certainly help to explain why some of us are taking years to recover, in fact it would make a great deal of sense.

 

I am now just past the 5 year mark and my brain is continuing to recalibrate, I can actually feel it happening as my symptoms are all physical with my legs, arms, spine, feet and hands worst affected. 

 

And of course there are those who are also at the same stage as me .. very protracted, cannot tolerate supplements or medication of any sort and avoid everything and follow a strict diet ..  which I do not!!

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It's all just guessing anyways so I'm not sure... but if gaba receptors acted like an on off switch based on the presence of the drug, wouldn't it just turn all those gaba receptors back on once the drug is out of the body? Probably within a few days to weeks at most. I don't see why it would be able to turn off all those receptors in a month or less and take an nondescript amount of years to turn back on. My guess is, there's nothing there to turn back on. Most of these receptor sites were probably destroyed by over activation. Think of it like a guy that goes to the gym every day and works out his biceps. If he doesn't give his arms a few days to heal in between, he'll just keep shredding the muscle. Within a week or two his muscles will be so weak and bruised that he won't be able to lift a glass of water.

 

Really when doctors prescribe this stuff, they should say: Hey, one of these pills equals ten bottles of vodka. It's basically synthetic alcohol in pill form. Also it's probably manufactured somewhere in India, so who knows what the drug company is actually putting in there. You're probably ingesting all sorts of neurotoxins. You might as well go huff gasoline because it'll have the same effect on your brain. But as long as you don't take it for more than a week, you'll be fine... maybe. It's great for anxiety though.

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I don't know any of the answers but they certainly cause a great deal of damage to a percentage of patients ... and the damage can take a very long time to recover from for some of us.  But we keep moving foward anyway and hoping for better days ahead. 

 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

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From what I’ve read...

 

Gaba is increased by taking benzos.  Gaba receptors get completely saturated.  Glutamate neurotransmitters increase in droves so the increased gaba won’t shut down your bodily systems.  Now you have a situation.  No calming working gaba receptors that are completely saturated, dying and useless, and too much excitatory glutamate that was overproduced to compensate for the benzo-induced gaba.

 

Glutamate neurotransmitters cause overactivity.  Anxiety and over-the-top reactions to everything ensues.  Your gaba receptors are limp and dead, just like an overwatered plant.  You stopped taking the benzos, i.e. stopped overwatering the plants, and now your gaba receptors need to grow back.  It takes a long time.  You have a trillion gaba receptors throughout your body.  They not only need to grow back, they need to mature.  They not only need to mature, they need to learn.  They not only need to learn, they each need to pair up with a glutamate neurotransmitter.  Once paired, they are paired for life.  Can you understand why this process takes years to complete?  Our bodies are miracles.  It’s amazing they can fix this shit.

 

Time staying away from meds, alcohol, supplements and other things that you force your brain and nerves to contend with is the only way out of this.  Genetics may play a role, but your body IS your genetics and can use them to your advantage. 

 

Put in the time and you will heal.

 

Sofa

 

 

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From what I’ve read...

 

Gaba is increased by taking benzos.  Gaba receptors get completely saturated.  Glutamate neurotransmitters increase in droves so the increased gaba won’t shut down your bodily systems.  Now you have a situation.  No calming working gaba receptors that are completely saturated, dying and useless, and too much excitatory glutamate that was overproduced to compensate for the benzo-induced gaba.

 

Glutamate neurotransmitters cause overactivity.  Anxiety and over-the-top reactions to everything ensues.  Your gaba receptors are limp and dead, just like an overwatered plant.  You stopped taking the benzos, i.e. stopped overwatering the plants, and now your gaba receptors need to grow back.  It takes a long time.  You have a trillion gaba receptors throughout your body.  They not only need to grow back, they need to mature.  They not only need to mature, they need to learn.  They not only need to learn, they each need to pair up with a glutamate neurotransmitter.  Once paired, they are paired for life.  Can you understand why this process takes years to complete?  Our bodies are miracles.  It’s amazing they can fix this shit.

 

Time staying away from meds, alcohol, supplements and other things that you force your brain and nerves to contend with is the only way out of this.  Genetics may play a role, but your body IS your genetics and can use them to your advantage. 

 

Put in the time and you will heal.

 

Sofa

 

Well well said..couldnt have said it better myself.

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I'm in the camp that the GABA receptors are down regulated while the glutamate is ramped up.  I think (from extensive reading/research) that many of the symptoms we have are from excess glutamate (both from too much being produced to compensate ,as well as the GABA receptors being turned off and not using it). You're overflowing in glutamate.  Try researching about "excess glutamate" - or low glutamate diets ...avoid those foods.  Do everything you can find to not overproduce or flood your body with glutamate.  (Example - don't eat wheat - i love bread etc, but have sworn off and it's made a big difference among a few other things).  Our body is slow to come back into balance (but it does) - and the less glutamate we can produce, the less the symptoms are. Also read about MSG - which is in EVERYTHING processed...it really ramps up glutamate...so how many people on here do you think are "eating clean" or not? and if not, then they are pouring on a ton of glutamate to down regulated receptors.  It's a really bad cycle.
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there is no question a common theme in all the success stories of people who healed in a year or less is that they eliminated all gluten, sugar, caffeine , alcohol and dairy - all these things are FINE in a healthy functioning body but problematic in a body that is fighting through benzo withdrawal....... i eliminated them all and healed fast - i now have each of them in moderation - with the exception of alcohol - i will be at the 1 yr mark in about a month and considering trying tiny tiny amounts to see if i can eventually enjoy a single glass of wine again - if not - oh well - living a healthy, happy life is far more important than having 2-3 glasses of wine per week. 
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Do you think the length of time on the benzos has any correlation to how quickly the body heals itself?

 

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i personally don't think so as i've seen people who were on these meds 20+ yrs heal faster than people who were on for a few weeks / months.  Another theory people had was about fat storing these meds- but i was rail thin (size 2) and was only ever 18% body fat - lost 20 pounds in withdrawal and got down to 10% body fat and i still went through months of hell.  I think genetics are the biggest factor.  Next clean diet and taking NO supplements that act on GABA and third is outlooked - no question people with a defeatist attitude/ constantly negative - stating they will never heal / permanently damaged - heal much more slowly -  as we know - the Placebo effect is profound - it has beaten opioids in trials - this means the brain is extremely powerful.  when the brain believes healing is possible - the body heals - if the brain believes healing is not possible - it wont. 
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i personally don't think so as i've seen people who were on these meds 20+ yrs heal faster than people who were on for a few weeks / months.  Another theory people had was about fat storing these meds- but i was rail thin (size 2) and was only ever 18% body fat - lost 20 pounds in withdrawal and got down to 10% body fat and i still went through months of hell.  I think genetics are the biggest factor.  Next clean diet and taking NO supplements that act on GABA and third is outlooked - no question people with a defeatist attitude/ constantly negative - stating they will never heal / permanently damaged - heal much more slowly -  as we know - the Placebo effect is profound - it has beaten opioids in trials - this means the brain is extremely powerful.  when the brain believes healing is possible - the body heals - if the brain believes healing is not possible - it wont.

 

I agree that age does not matter and that genetics are a big factor.  As for this statement, I most profoundly disagree with it unless you can provide me with a study which demonstrates that this is the case.

 

no question people with a defeatist attitude/ constantly negative - stating they will never heal / permanently damaged - heal much more slowly -  as we know - the Placebo effect is profound

 

I was convinced for the first 2-3 years that I would make a full recovery or very near to a full recovery anyway.  In my 4th year I started to realise that this was probably rather unrealistic given the state my body had been left in, now at over 5 year I remain in bed mostly. with my legs, spine, arms, neck and shoulders worst affected.  It takes a great deal of courage to endure the realities of protracted withdrawal, particularly when it has been hellish beyond belief, and to face up to the possibility that recovery is not going to happen.  But most of us are able to adapt and appraise the situation for what it is and that allows us to keep moving forward. 

 

I do not believe I will make a full recovery and I do believe I am now permanently damaged.  I see that as neither negative or defeatist but realistic. I struggle every day to function and do everything I can to try to improve.  I campaign on a daily basis to raise awareness about the damaging effects of these drugs.  I try to support and encourage wherever I can. I have a great sense of humour.  I know people who have been optimistic throughout and are still not healed after 5 plus years and they have followed the sort of diet you advocate and they meditate and pracice mindfulness and all the other things that are supposed to guarantee a good outcome.  So please do not suggest that those who believe they will not heal or are permanently damaged are negative or slowing down their own recovery.  Even the most optimistic amongst us are still sick many years on.

 

I think it is a great pity that the protracted board is no longer visible to all .. this means that those who are not protracted are no longer able to see the posts on that particular board.  I personally think this is a mistake.  We have a perspective to offer that only comes after battling with a benzo-induced brain injury for a long time.

 

I feel desperately sorry for those who are struggling with depression, constant negative thinking and feelings of doom and despair only then to be told they are slowing down their own recovery and making things worse. 

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i personally don't think so as i've seen people who were on these meds 20+ yrs heal faster than people who were on for a few weeks / months.  Another theory people had was about fat storing these meds- but i was rail thin (size 2) and was only ever 18% body fat - lost 20 pounds in withdrawal and got down to 10% body fat and i still went through months of hell.  I think genetics are the biggest factor.  Next clean diet and taking NO supplements that act on GABA and third is outlooked - no question people with a defeatist attitude/ constantly negative - stating they will never heal / permanently damaged - heal much more slowly -  as we know - the Placebo effect is profound - it has beaten opioids in trials - this means the brain is extremely powerful.  when the brain believes healing is possible - the body heals - if the brain believes healing is not possible - it wont.

 

I agree that age does not matter and that genetics are a big factor.  As for this statement, I most profoundly disagree with it unless you can provide me with a study which demonstrates that this is the case.

 

no question people with a defeatist attitude/ constantly negative - stating they will never heal / permanently damaged - heal much more slowly -  as we know - the Placebo effect is profound

 

I was convinced for the first 2-3 years that I would make a full recovery or very near to a full recovery anyway.  In my 4th year I started to realise that this was probably rather unrealistic given the state my body had been left it, now at over 5 year I remain in bed mostly. with my legs, spine, arms, neck and shoulders worst affected.  It takes a great deal of courage to endure the realities of protracted withdrawal, particularly when it has been hellish beyond belief, and to face up to the possibility that recovery is not going to happen.

 

I do not believe I will make a full recovery and I do believe I am now permanently damaged.  I see that as neither negative or defeatist but realistic. I struggle every day to function and do everything I can to try to improve.  I campaign on a daily basis to raise awareness about the damaging effects of these drugs.  I try to support and encourage wherever I can. I have a great sense of humour.  I know people who have been optimistic throughout and are still not healed after 5 plus years and they have followed the sort of diet you advocate and they meditate and pracice mindfulness and all the other things that are supposed to guarantee a good outcome.  So please do not suggest that those who believe they will not heal or are permanently damaged are negative or slowing down their own recovery.  Even the most optimistic amongst us are still sick many years on.

 

I think it is a great pity that the protracted board is no longer visible to all .. this means that those who are not protracted are no longer able to see the posts on that particular board.  I personally think this is a mistake.  We have a perspective to offer that only comes after battling with a benzo-induced brain injury for a long time.

Positive attitude can do nothing but help. Here's a scientific study, however there is plenty more out there.

 

https://psych415.class.uic.edu/Readings/Segerstrom,%20optimism,%20mood,%20immune%20status,%20JPSP,%201998.pdf

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yes, BenzoBFree, I totally agree that a positive attitude helps and I always advocate it. What I am asking for is a study of those coming off benzos, a comparison of their attitudes and the time it took them to heal to demonstrate that those who are negative take longer than those who are not.

 

This statement was very definite - there is no question it says ...  we need evidence therefore that it is true.  These statements can be incredibly hurtful to people and damaging in themselves ... 

 

no question people with a defeatist attitude/ constantly negative - stating they will never heal / permanently damaged - heal much more slowly -  as we know - the Placebo effect is profound

 

 

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yes, BenzoBFree, I totally agree that a positive attitude helps and I always advocate it. What I am asking for is a study of those coming off benzos, a comparison of their attitudes and the time it took them to heal to demonstrate that those who are negative take longer than those who are not.

 

This statement was very definite - there is no question it says ...  we need evidence therefore that it is true.  These statements can be incredibly hurtful to people and damaging in themselves ... 

 

no question people with a defeatist attitude/ constantly negative - stating they will never heal / permanently damaged - heal much more slowly -  as we know - the Placebo effect is profound

But do we really need evidence? Why not try the "positive attitude" thing and see how it works out?

 

Not quite sure I see how it can be hurtful and damaging for individuals to think optimistically. If you don't want to make the effort to keep that frown upside down, that's your decision.

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BenzoBFree - you have entirely missed the point or perhaps you didn't read my post.

You asked for scientific evidence positive attitude helps benzo withdrawal. We both know studies like that have not been done.

Plus, why are you picking apart the post? You knew what he/she meant.

 

Your mind is made up, but I hope others keep on smiling through the pain.

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I know they have not been done which is why it is wise not to make definite statements which cannot be properly substantiated.  The most optimistic people can be found on the protracted board ... not sure why they should have become protracted. It takes a great deal of guts to be optimistic year after year after year .. but you are not in that situation.

 

I always keep an open mind if I do not have evidence to come to a conclusion.

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I think for mental symptoms in particular that a positive attitude can create huge change. I noticed this in myself when I started to believe I could be better. The anxiety, depression, and derealization/depersonalization are not much different than that experienced by those not in withdrawal. These are manifestations of a series of thought processes. I am still struggling with dr/dp but it has significantly lessened since I have forced myself to pretend to go about life as normal. My anxiety has vanished and the depression has lessened and I believe is only there because of the distress of the dr/dp. I only had physical symptoms in severe acute withdrawal and they were not that bad so I cannot speak to this experience but I know that there have been times where I was full on dissociated and unbearably depressed but I forced myself to get in the car and drive to the gym or interact with people, even though they looked animated and I honestly believed that I might not even be alive. It doesn't help to just sit in bed and think positive thoughts either, we must continue with our lives as though nothing is wrong with us.... as long as it takes until our brain starts to believe it too.
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I am sure you are right, my experience of withdrawal has been largely physical rather than mental though I had to deal with the constant negative thoughts in the early years (whilst still believing I would recover) and I used distraction all the time to cope with those.  I am glad you have found a way to deal with things.  For me it has not been possible to carry on with life ... I have been far too physically ill and lost the use of my arms and legs to a large extent so walking wasn't even possible, it still is very difficult and I can only walk short distances.  However, even in bed it is possible to keep fully occupied and to remain very positive, even when desperately ill.  In my case, however, it does not make any difference to the arms and legs recovering.  I hope you will recover very soon.  My issue was with the particular statement made earlier which was a blanket statement without any caveats whatsoever, and I do not think those are very useful and can indeed be quite damaging to some.  I remember how I used to feel reading such statements in the earlier days.
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there is no question a common theme in all the success stories of people who healed in a year or less is that they eliminated all gluten, sugar, caffeine , alcohol and dairy - all these things are FINE in a healthy functioning body but problematic in a body that is fighting through benzo withdrawal....... i eliminated them all and healed fast - i now have each of them in moderation - with the exception of alcohol - i will be at the 1 yr mark in about a month and considering trying tiny tiny amounts to see if i can eventually enjoy a single glass of wine again - if not - oh well - living a healthy, happy life is far more important than having 2-3 glasses of wine per week. 

SSRI: I am weighing in at 5 months post jump. No significant recovery OR change in symptoms!!  Klonopin 1 mg/day for 12 years. 1 year taper.

OK, you claim that most success stories claim gluten, caffeine, alcohol and dairy were strictly avoided. Could you detail this a little more?

Any ideas about "Organic Corn? Taking a glutamine supplement for leaky gut?

 

The dairy and the gluten are areas where I've cheated. i.e. hard cheese once per day, restaurants have 1/2 bun for my hamburger.  Am In your opinion, do you think I am sabotaging my recoverY?

Thanks for your journey!  Tommy

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Swammi - you could be doing a lot worse to deter your recovery. Main focal points to avoid are caffeine, alcohol, and MSG (according to some).
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Swammi

I'm not a dr and I don't play one on tv either (so this is all my personal research).  I think some basic medical facts that many have researched and documented are the widely held concepts that the GABA receptors are downregulated (or "missing/not working").  GABA is often likened to "the brakes", slowing things down and calming.  Glutamine is the flip side neurotransmitter. It speeds things up.  Both are necessary to humans. It's when they are out of balance that problems occur.  Too much glutamate becomes excitatory. When there is not enough GABA (due to the downregulation by Benzo use), the glutamine becomes dominant and out of control. An excess of glutamate is a primary contributing factor to a wide variety of neurological disorders like autism, ALS, Parkinson’s schizophrenia, migraines, restless leg syndrome, Tourette’s, pandas, fibromyalgia, multiple sclerosis, Huntington’s chorea, and seizures. (direct quote from "holistichelp.net").  Sound familiar? Glutamate makes the perception of pain more intense.  Here is another direct quote from the same site: Too much glutamate can lead to too much acetylcholine, and too much acetylcholine has a stimulating effect as well and puts one into a perpetual state of sympathetic stress with high levels of anxiety, fear, insomnia, restlessness, nervousness etc.

 

This same information about excess glutamate can be found on tons of sites with minimal research.

Match up our symptoms in withdrawal and draw your own conclusions.  Tremors, pain, headaches, misdiagnoses of MS, anxiety, fear, insomnia...fibromyalgia-like symptoms.  High glutamate.

 

So in addition to having LOW GABA to offset the normal amount of glutamate we all have (thereby creating an excess of glutamate), what other things increase or overexcite glutamate.

 

Well for one, calcium does.  Do any of you take vitamin supplements with calcium? or drink calcium fortified drinks like orange juice? It increases glutamate according to online searches. Vitamin D supplementation increases calcium.  Draw your own conclusions. 

 

Another is aspartame - binds to glutamate and causes additional overexcitation.  And Aspartame is Nutrasweet. 

 

Citric acid can bind with glutamate and over excite it - citric acid is in a million things from supplements to soft drinks.

 

MSG is a huge culprit.  It is in nearly all processed food - again, it is a free form type of glutamate.  Most of us have read about people who overreact to MSG - headaches, anxiety, pain - the list goes on.  And in people like us with high glutamate/low GABA it's treacherous (imo).  REad up on MSG.  Read the symptoms. 

 

High glutamate foods:  Parmesan, Roquefort, Soy sauce, Mushrooms, Broccoli, Peas, Walnuts, ripe tomatoes....and most of all...Wheat.  And we load ourselves with wheat.

 

So staying away from excitatory substances (such as caffeine and sugar and alcohol) are obvious to me.  Avoiding high glutamate foods especially wheat is essential (again, imo).  Being careful of calcium supplements and foods additives.  When i put these guidelines into practice, I began to have windows.  And more windows.  Up until then, it was a nightmare.  Was it hard? YES.  IS it hard?? YES.  Even now, 6 months out, if i eat sugar, the pain returns quickly.  I can have an occasional diet soda if i want without it causing symptoms - but only occasionally.  I now can have 1 small drink with minimal impact.  If i eat wheat - within a day or two..symptoms are back. 

 

For me, it's all about the science and researching.  Low GABA until it "re-sets" (however that happens) means HIGH glutamate and it makes no sense to me to eat/consume those things that cause excess glutamate.  It's a struggle.  It's a sacrifice and yeah, it pisses me off that it's happened to me. But oh well. 

 

Doing all these things? does it become an immediate magic wand? NO.  But I found, for ME, it chips away...and the windows came.

 

Again, do your own research.  Use reputable scientific sites.  Be skeptical but be informed. 

 

There you have my thoughts....and what works/worked for me

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