Jim Hawk and Bella Amis I Need Help With Math

Hi Jim Hawk and Bella Amis,

I have lost my taper plan which was created using the Fixed Percentage method reducing at the rate of 5% over 14 days, Realizing that this method was going to take an incredibly long time I am now thinking that I should switch to the Fixed Quantity method as Jim Hawk had mentioned that most people on BB use the Fixed Reduction as it is shorter and easier maybe to follow?

Would you recommend this?

I am using a compounded Clonazepam suspension from a pharmacy that has been prepared using 14 and 1/4th, 2mg tablets dissolved in 288mls of liquid (I was originally told that their formulation was 14.5 tablets in 290mls but they have revised this). 

I need a new plan and also need to know what percentage my decrease has been so far. Can you please help me with this?

Prior to starting my taper I was taking .5mg in the morning and my night dose was 3/4 plus 1/8th of a .5mg tablet. 

Today is the 13th day of my taper and I have reduced my morning dose to 4.76mls and my night dose to 3.75 mls. My doctor does not want me to reduce my night dose any further until my morning dose is down to 3.75mls and then I will spread the daily reduction over the 2 doses.

I need to provide my doctor with the percentage that I have decreased since starting my taper and have no idea how to calculate this with the cognitive issues that I am having. I would greatly appreciate any help you can provide. 

Also how do I switch to the Fixed Quantity?

Thank you!

Hummingbird

Hi Hummingbird9 

Input:

- Starting dose: .5 mg

- Stop dose: .375 mg

- Reduction rate: 5%/14 days

- Reduction method: fixed quantity

- Solution concentration: .1 mg/ml

Output:

5% of .5 mg = .5 * 5/100 = .025 mg

Per day: .025 / 14 = .0018 mg/day

- Day 1: .498 mg (= .500 - .0018) -->  4.98 ml (= .498 / .1)

- Day 2: .496 mg (= .498 - .0018) -->  4.96 ml (= .496 / .1)

- Day 3: .494 mg (= .496 - .0018) -->  4.94 ml (= .494 / .1)

...

Jim, I've been helped by builder on how to do the liquid preparation and the math of it. Could you help me to pass this numbers to your Liquid Plan page as you did above. I just want to be able to enter and print the numbers right.

My plan:

Combine 4 mg (8 x 0.5 mg tablets) in 8 ml vodka, and add 32 ml water. This gives you 40 ml , 0.1 mg per ml. (approx a 10 day supply).

0.375 mg x 10%= 0.0375

0.0375 mg/10 days= 0.00375  Question: can i round up to 0.004?

Schedule

0.375 mg        3.75 ml

0.371              3.71

Another question: As a back up option if I can't tolerate all liquid. How I could i enter the numbers for the following:

I am on a pill's dose of 0.125 mg daily. I would use 0.125 as the "cut dose" (liquid). once I finished the 0.125 liquid I'll switch the .250 remaining from dry to liquid.

Thanks!

Hi micedana

Go here: http://benzo.alwaysdata.net/ , select Liquid Taper and input these parameters:

1.

then submit. You will have the total view of your taper plan.

Besides the technical details, could you please share why you wish to taper that fast? As you may know the general recommendations are to reduce between 5-10% every 10-14 days. When you reduce 10%/10 days (or 1%/day) it is definitely at the fastest end of the range. Symptoms could likely arise. Why not start with a more conservative 5%/14 days and increase in absence of symptoms? Possibly reconsider the pace as you are currently not on a very high dose with your 0.375 mg/day.

2. Back up option:

Hope it helps.

Besides the technical details, could you please share why you wish to taper that fast?

This just come from frustration probably. It's been 9 months of hell after for a stupid reason I took one of this evil pills and end up been a victim of the psychiatric healing system.

As you might have seen, I started the tapper in April 1 mg and end up now with 0.375. I had to hold twice as per my Dr. three weeks each time, due to surgery and traveling. Had to go back one dose once or twice during that period. Still was a fast tapper at the start. My doctor suggested that 25% the first week and then 1/4 or half of a pill every 1/2 weeks. As you probably  have seen in this forum everybody wants to get rid of this stuff ASAP. There is a learning curve of what is the right thing to do, if what your dr tells you and then the other plans out there.

My concept is: Until I join the forum, I was stuck with a dose that I couldn't manage to make it slower (pills). I didn't know the possibility of doing gradually daily. Compared to my doctor's suggestion this is wayyy more slow that I was thinking I had to end up doing. And the big one is that like everybody else I want to get rid of this stuff ASAP. I still feel frustrated and scared of possible symptoms, some I have live with since this ordeal started. But whatever it takes I'm going to get rid of this devil stuff!

Regarding your question:

-Have you seen reports of such a taper plan trigger withdraw symptoms for certain people?

-Do longer pase taper plans have the risk of making people more use to the drug mainly in people that hasn't been on it too long ?

-If I decide to go to a lower pase I just need to change the % (5/10) and the days right (10/14)?

As always thanks a lot for you efforts and dedication to help others!!!

Miguel

Hi Miguel

Have you seen reports of such a taper plan trigger withdraw symptoms for certain people?

I have read about people who still feel symptoms at 5% cut. I have read about people who felt rough symptoms at 10% cut and get stabilized at 6%/14 days. In some sites, the recommended taper reduction is 5%/28 days https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/learn/psychiatric-drug-taper-rates-review-and-discussion . We seem to react all differently to reductions.

Do longer pase taper plans have the risk of making people more use to the drug mainly in people that hasn't been on it too long ?

Maybe, but I have also read about people healing while reducing. It appears that the reduced dose of drug in the body reduces the adverse side effects of it in the same time.

If I decide to go to a lower pase I just need to change the % (5/10) and the days right (10/14)?

You will change the quantity so the resulting percent is 5% or 6% or.... whatever. Right for the days.

The main idea I wish to share is this. Do a kind slow taper. Possibly do not let your emotion interfere with the taper process. Let your body tell you whether a cut is far too important and needs to be reduced. Time must play limited or no role at all in the process. Many people cut faster hoping to kick the ass of benzo out of their life and found themselves suffering harrowing protracted ordeal years after the last dose.

Heal soon Miguel!

Jim,

Thanks for you information and encourage words.

Some other issues that came to my mind:

-Im using, as described above 8x 0.5 pills to create a solution that is going to last a week or so. In the plan I use a mix of pills and liquid. Excuse my ignorance but I have the sensation that adding the pills of the solution ( taken in liquid form plus the regular pill second dose (0.250)of the plan, it would be more pills consumed in a week than what I am taken before starting the plan (0,125 x3 a day x 7 days)?

-Lastly, and I would understand if you don't answer to this, what would be the plan of tapering if you were on my shoes? Would you show it in your plan with numbers to compare to the one I was thinking?

Thanks a lot again for your kindness and time!

Miguel

Hi Miguel,

Based on the yesterday input:

1. Without taper, 4 mg (8 x 0.5 mg) would suffice for more than 10 days ( 8 * 0.5 / 0.375 = 10.67). If you take solution combined with dry pill the total liquid quantity for these 10 days is 11.46 ml (1.146 mg) and the dry pill is 2.5 mg (10 * 0.25 mg) for a total of 3.646 mg of benzo, lower than 4 mg. Another point is that by combining with dry pill, this 40 ml of solution would largely suffice for one month. From a preservation viewpoint, it's perhaps not what you want. (Ex: 1 week).

2.

what would be the plan of tapering if you were on my shoes?

Obviously during the taper you might change the pace by changing the reduction quantity or the number of days. Both will impact the taper speed.

Hope I answered your question.

Thanks Jim,

Yes you did. I just realize that I'm taking 3.75 in 10 days so it's almost the 3.646 that your math gave.

Could you please elaborate on this: Regarding the 40 ml -0.1ml concentration we used in the above formula it took my attention In the help section of the liquid taper that the 0.1ml concentration is oriented to diazepam and 0.01 ml is the one suggested for clonazepam. We are using the 0.1ml concentration in your taper suggestion and the one that Builder used. Besides what you mention that is almost the same thing but just have more impact towards the end of the taper when more precise doses are needed.

-Would this concentration give more time of solution available for more days of use?would it be too much resulting in conservation issues.

-Would it be more convenient in the Plan that you suggest to me the larger solution (100ml) because I'm not using a attenuate taper ?

-What numbers do I have to change besides the total volume of liquid if I decided to go that road in case you think is more veneficial?

Again thanks for your help!!!!

Which concentration?

For practical purposes, the solution concentration is suggested to be in function of 0.1 mg/ml for Diazepam. Should the benzo to taper be 10 times more powerful or superior then it is recommended to have a concentration of 0.01 mg/ml that is 10 times more diluted. While there is no difference between the two concentrations when the doses are large, the more diluted is the solution the higher is the accuracy when douses get very small to draw up towards the end.

Example:

1 mg of Diazepam --> 2 ml of alcohol to dilute + 8 ml of water will make a 10 ml final solution of 0.1 mg/ml concentration.

1 mg of Clonazepam--> 2 ml of alcohol to dilute + 98 ml of water will make a 100 ml solution of 0.01 mg/ml concentration.

Hi Miguel

Have look here:  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=200822.msg2609962#msg2609962

If the solution is more diluted (0.01 mg/ml) then you will drink more liquid. If it is 10 times less diluted (0.1 mg/ml) you will drink 10 times less for the SAME quantity of benzo. But we are more concerned about very small volumes (Ex: 2.5 ml vs 0.25 ml) towards the end of the taper. So don't worry, the 0.1 mg/ml will be just fine.

Launch yourself Miguel and get rid of this poison!

Hi Jim, almost ready to launch. Dr looked at me as if I Were From other planet when showed your plan. She said she would order the solution but only thru the pharmacist. It's my only source to get the medicine so it's ok with me.

Some things that came up talking to her:

-I have the choice of almond oil or ora sweet. Knowing this is a transition from pills, which would be less problematic in your experience with other guys here in the forum. I guess almond oil is more natural.

-Im taking x3 .125 doses per day. You recomended one dose a day, for practical purposes it has a lot of sense but, having a sudden switching to all liquid, would it be better to transitioning the taper starting at 3x day liquid doses for a while and then switch to 2 and then 1?

-If for some reason I decided to change the qty or the % to do a more slow taper, changing also the date would give me a new spreadsheet where I can start fresh. I don't get how the system takes care of a new starting point as far as the last qty already tapered before the new reduction?Is it something you have to put in the main page?

-Something that I notice when you submit the numbers to get the spreadsheet is that the numbers on the pdf change when I go back and forth from the main data entry page. This is mainly when the boxes are background shadowed...

Thanks a lot!

Hi micedana

I have the choice of almond oil or ora sweet. Knowing this is a transition from pills, which would be less problematic in your experience with other guys here in the forum. I guess almond oil is more natural.

I have only read about buddies using SyrSpend® or Ora-Plus® as suspension liquid. Not a lot about almond oil.

having a sudden switching to all liquid, would it be better to transitioning the taper starting at 3x day liquid doses for a while and then switch to 2 and then 1?

And what if we maintain the 3 doses a day to avoid any surprise and liquid taper only one of them 3 to acquaint our body to the introduction of liquid? If it works then we taper the second dose then the last dose.

I don't get how the system takes care of a new starting point as far as the last qty already tapered before the new reduction?Is it something you have to put in the main page?

From the main page, when you input your data instead of entering the initial daily doses (Eg: 1, 1, 1) you enter the current doses (Eg: 0.675, 1, 1). I hope I interpreted correctly your question.

Something that I notice when you submit the numbers to get the spreadsheet is that the numbers on the pdf change when I go back and forth from the main data entry page. This is mainly when the boxes are background shadowed...

The application has been designed so the 2 fields Quantity and Percent are mutually exclusive. When you enter data in one field the other will be disabled and greyed out so you cannot enter 2 fields at the same time. When you come back from the reporting page (PDF) BOTH fields are now present and modifiable. If you submit again without doing any new input change, the application will use the Quantity field by default and ignore the Percent field. If you have previously submitted with Percent, now it is Quantity that takes over and that changes the report.

Hope I answered your questions.