Jump to content

How would I use Valium as a crossover while tapering off Clonazepam?


[Ra...]

Recommended Posts

Hello everyone.  I started my titration taper off 0.5 mg's of Clonazepam last November and I have tapered halfway to 0.25 mg. Yah! Although this is great news because I am halfway to being Benzo free.... I am starting to get some side effects. I am having trouble sleeping, my tinnitus is worse and I am anxious a lot.  I am going through a lot of stress right now in my life and I'm thinking this probably wasn't a good time to taper but I've been on Clonazepam for 13-years and it's time to get off.  I've come this far and I'm not going back up. 

 

With that said My Pdoc has suggested that I crossover to Valium to help me finish the taper and help me reduce side effects, etc. The only problem is she is suggesting that I follow the Ashton manual and that manual says to use 20 mgs of Valium with my 0.25 mgs of "C". I cannot take more then 5 mgs of Valium without it knocking me out!

 

So my question is... have any of you successfully used Valium to crossover and what was your rate and experience? How many mgs of Valium could I use to crossover successfully? My Pdoc is not very familiar with tapering and is very impressed with my progress so far!  Please help! Thank you!  :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello everyone.  I started my titration taper off 0.5 mg's of Clonazepam last November and I have tapered halfway to 0.25 mg. Yah! Although this is great news because I am halfway to being Benzo free.... I am starting to get some side effects. I am having trouble sleeping, my tinnitus is worse and I am anxious a lot.  I am going through a lot of stress right now in my life and I'm thinking this probably wasn't a good time to taper but I've been on Clonazepam for 13-years and it's time to get off.  I've come this far and I'm not going back up. 

 

With that said My Pdoc has suggested that I crossover to Valium to help me finish the taper and help me reduce side effects, etc. The only problem is she is suggesting that I follow the Ashton manual and that manual says to use 20 mgs of Valium with my 0.25 mgs of "C". I cannot take more then 5 mgs of Valium without it knocking me out!

 

So my question is... have any of you successfully used Valium to crossover and what was your rate and experience? How many mgs of Valium could I use to crossover successfully? My Pdoc is not very familiar with tapering and is very impressed with my progress so far!  Please help! Thank you!  :thumbsup:

 

Hey RR-

 

Your Pdoc is misinformed... .25mg of C is the equivalent of 5mg of V. If you were to take 20mg V that would be a HUGE updose to the equivalent to 1mg C  :o 

 

Equivalency Tables

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You sound really determined, which is definitely going to help in this process! I am glad you have a doc who will help with the crossover and also that you asked for clarification!

Bella is right, 0.25 mg C is about equal to 5 mg of V.

 

When I crossed from C/K to V, I was at 0.67K and crossed to V in three stages. You might be able to do it in two at your dose. I would try switching to 0.125 mg C and 2.5 mg V. You may feel more sedated at first, but trust me- it wears off! You could hold there for about two weeks and then see how you are feeling. I found the valium to help with sleep which made me feel a lot better. You could then switch all the way to 5 mg V, or taper the rest of the C with the valium as a buffer, or drop the 0.125 mg C and go to only 3.75 mg V (with the option of going all the way to 5 mg if you need it). The equivalency tables arent exact. I found the extra sedation from V allowed me to cross to a lower equivalency and therefore have less to taper.

 

Take care,

JKS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was referred by my psychiatrist to an “Addiction Psychiatrist”. I am meeting with this new doctor on Sunday afternoon. I never heard of an “Addiction Psychiatrist” before but apparently they specialize in detoxing people from all sorts of substances such as alcohol, tobacco, cocaine, opiates and benzos (dependency rather than addiction). This doctor told me he knows all about the Ashton protocol but knows of a”new, faster better way” to detox from benzos. This doctor told me to buy “Brain in Balance” by Dr Fred Von Stieff  on Amazon( for $9.99 on Kindle. I did and read almost all the 13 chapters and focused on the case studies for detoxing from Benzos. The Book was written in 2011 and this doctor has detoxed 20,000 people in his career. I will post what I learn on Sunday in my thread “Your experiences with the Ashton protocol” early next week. I plan to follow this doctors advice which does not require a Valium crossover. Other meds are used. I will only post it as a possible alternative that may be of help to someone else. I don’t endorse any one specific method for tapering off of Benzos because people have been successful from several different approaches.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You sound really determined, which is definitely going to help in this process! I am glad you have a doc who will help with the crossover and also that you asked for clarification!

Bella is right, 0.25 mg C is about equal to 5 mg of V.

 

When I crossed from C/K to V, I was at 0.67K and crossed to V in three stages. You might be able to do it in two at your dose. I would try switching to 0.125 mg C and 2.5 mg V. You may feel more sedated at first, but trust me- it wears off! You could hold there for about two weeks and then see how you are feeling. I found the valium to help with sleep which made me feel a lot better. You could then switch all the way to 5 mg V, or taper the rest of the C with the valium as a buffer, or drop the 0.125 mg C and go to only 3.75 mg V (with the option of going all the way to 5 mg if you need it). The equivalency tables arent exact. I found the extra sedation from V allowed me to cross to a lower equivalency and therefore have less to taper.

 

Take care,

JKS

 

Your post is EXTREMELY helpful. Thankyou.  I did look at the Ashton Manual again today and I wish I could paste it in here but it won't work. The taper plan that they have listed on that site is for the starting rate of 1.5 mg of Clonazepam taken three times a day. When the taper gets down to just 0.25 mg it is showing that Valium is given three times a day along with the "c". It's very confusing to me and like I said the Valium is too much for me. My doc told me to look it over and then I'll be getting back with her in a month so she can give me a script if I want to do the crossover.  I'm not sure yet if I'm going to do it as I'm not thrilled with the idea of taking another Benzo! Yes I am determined and will be completely drug free when this last bit of "c" is gone! I just don't like drugs and the side effects always get me. Just not worth it. I will look into what you said and I'm planning on taking about 8-months in my second half of the taper. I think the Ashton Manual taper is way too fast.. ☹️

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I started my titration taper off 0.5 mg's of Clonazepam last November and I have tapered halfway to 0.25 mg.

 

With that said My Pdoc has suggested that I crossover to Valium to help me finish the taper and help me reduce side effects, etc. The only problem is she is suggesting that I follow the Ashton manual and that manual says to use 20 mgs of Valium with my 0.25 mgs of "C". I cannot take more then 5 mgs of Valium without it knocking me out!

 

I did look at the Ashton Manual again today and I wish I could paste it in here but it won't work. The taper plan that they have listed on that site is for the starting rate of 1.5 mg of Clonazepam taken three times a day. When the taper gets down to just 0.25 mg it is showing that Valium is given three times a day along with the "c". It's very confusing to me and like I said the Valium is too much for me.

 

You are CONFUSED because you're looking at the table for Valium substitution of 1.5mg clonazepam, specifically at Stage 5, where all except 0.25mg of the clonazepam has already been substituted with Valium.  That is, 1.25mg of clonazepam has already been substituted with an equivalent amount of Valium.  Why would you need to do that, when you're down at 0.25mg clonazepam? 

 

You'd only need to substitute 0.25mg of clonazepam with Valium, which would be 5mg Valium, as Bella and JKS has said and as I've said before in your other post about this.  You wouldn't take 0.25mg clonazepam PLUS more Valium.  You'd take an equivalent amount of Valium to REPLACE the clonazepam. 

 

Is any of this getting through now? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was referred by my psychiatrist to an “Addiction Psychiatrist”. I am meeting with this new doctor on Sunday afternoon. I never heard of an “Addiction Psychiatrist” before but apparently they specialize in detoxing people from all sorts of substances such as alcohol, tobacco, cocaine, opiates and benzos (dependency rather than addiction). This doctor told me he knows all about the Ashton protocol but knows of a”new, faster better way” to detox from benzos. This doctor told me to buy “Brain in Balance” by Dr Fred Von Stieff  on Amazon( for $9.99 on Kindle. I did and read almost all the 13 chapters and focused on the case studies for detoxing from Benzos. The Book was written in 2011 and this doctor has detoxed 20,000 people in his career. I will post what I learn on Sunday in my thread “Your experiences with the Ashton protocol” early next week. I plan to follow this doctors advice which does not require a Valium crossover. Other meds are used. I will only post it as a possible alternative that may be of help to someone else. I don’t endorse any one specific method for tapering off of Benzos because people have been successful from several different approaches.

 

This is EXTREMELY helpful. Going to purchase the kindle book immediately! Thank you so much!!!  :thumbsup::smitten:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I started my titration taper off 0.5 mg's of Clonazepam last November and I have tapered halfway to 0.25 mg.

 

With that said My Pdoc has suggested that I crossover to Valium to help me finish the taper and help me reduce side effects, etc. The only problem is she is suggesting that I follow the Ashton manual and that manual says to use 20 mgs of Valium with my 0.25 mgs of "C". I cannot take more then 5 mgs of Valium without it knocking me out!

 

I did look at the Ashton Manual again today and I wish I could paste it in here but it won't work. The taper plan that they have listed on that site is for the starting rate of 1.5 mg of Clonazepam taken three times a day. When the taper gets down to just 0.25 mg it is showing that Valium is given three times a day along with the "c". It's very confusing to me and like I said the Valium is too much for me.

 

 

You are CONFUSED because you're looking at the table for Valium substitution of 1.5mg clonazepam, specifically at Stage 5, where all except 0.25mg of the clonazepam has already been substituted with Valium.  That is, 1.25mg of clonazepam has already been substituted with an equivalent amount of Valium.  Why would you need to do that, when you're down at 0.25mg clonazepam? 

 

You'd only need to substitute 0.25mg of clonazepam with Valium, which would be 5mg Valium, as Bella and JKS has said and as I've said before in your other post about this.  You wouldn't take 0.25mg clonazepam PLUS more Valium.  You'd take an equivalent amount of Valium to REPLACE the clonazepam. 

 

Is any of this getting through now?

 

 

Hey Delta 1... please be kind... I'm new to this cross-over taper.  Yes, it makes sense and I appreciate your insight and correction on that! I'm glad I posted this question because in all honesty I have no clue how to cross-over.  Hopefully before I start the second half of my taper I will find another workable solution. I just cannot deal with side effects and I am already experiencing some at 0.25 mg's. I HATE this stuff and once I'm done THATS IT with Benzo's!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not likely an issue of your being "new to this cross-over taper"; it's more likely an issue with not reading through the Ashton Manual thoroughly, just jumping to the withdrawal schedules, then looking at the table for 1.5mg clonazepam, and somehow skipping to the 0.25mg clonazepam stage to complain that Ashton tells you to just add 20mg Valium to your 0.25mg clonazepam.  When she does no such thing!

 

It really is beyond me how you did that, when you only need to study the table a few minutes, and think about it.  Still I put in the time and energy to explain what you've "confused," so that you wouldn't be making any mistakes in your taper, but rather than be grateful, you accuse me of being not "kind"?  Wow, a big mistake trying to help you, won't do that again! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are welcome RaquelRocks. Let’s stay in touch on the Aston protocol and the new alternative that we are both exploring. I will always help you. Remember that we can do this together!. I will post soon  after I meet with new doctor tomorrow
Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, Raquel, if I had been not "kind," I wouldn't have gone to the trouble to explain (with CAPS and bolding so you wouldn't miss things, because this was already the second time I was trying to clarify things for you) what you somehow couldn't see in that table.  I would have instead ASSUMED that you were lazy (for obviously not reading the Ashton Manual and expecting others to do all the work for you) or stupid (for going to the 1.5mg clonazepam substitution table and claiming that Ashton said to just add 20mg Valium to your 0.25mg clonazepam), or both, and spelled THAT out for you.  But I didn't do that; I assumed rather that you must be having trouble because of withdrawal, and so I tried to help you, for which you then ungratefully told me to "be kind."

 

This is a support forum, but it doesn't mean it's here to indulge you or anyone else in not doing their homework.  That would be abusive of those who are here hurting (and everyone here is hurting, including the family members and caregivers) and those willing to put in the time and energy to help others.  I certainly don't come here to exploit like that.  You may be embarrassed that you "confused" the table, as you claim, but that in no way excuses your deflecting by accusing unkindness or some such nonsense. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Delta1- it is easy to mistake tone in electronic communications. Bold and caps are sometimes interpreted as shouting. I also thought that your initial response on this thread was a bit aggressive, but your followup definitely crossed the line. Remember one of the rules you agreed to when you joined the forum was:

 

* Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow Buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members.

 

Many people here are confused and feeling their way forward with little guidance from the real world. None of us are experts, and its ok to make mistakes. When we do, we help each other out. It appears from your signature that you are not in benzo withdrawal (admirable that you are helping your mother) but many people who are experience brain fog and it can be difficult to understand even the simplest things when in withdrawal.

 

Please be more considerate in future communications here, even if you think the person you are communicating with should know better.

 

JKS

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RR and Faithspot-

Please do check in with any ideas about faster-than-Ashton tapers. I have heard of many doctors or institutions who claim rapid success with various supplements or adjunct meds, but almost all of these are not as good as they sound. Generally a gradual slow removal of the benzo is what is needed.

JKS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not likely an issue of your being "new to this cross-over taper"; it's more likely an issue with not reading through the Ashton Manual thoroughly, just jumping to the withdrawal schedules, then looking at the table for 1.5mg clonazepam, and somehow skipping to the 0.25mg clonazepam stage to complain that Ashton tells you to just add 20mg Valium to your 0.25mg clonazepam.  When she does no such thing!

 

It really is beyond me how you did that, when you only need to study the table a few minutes, and think about it.  Still I put in the time and energy to explain what you've "confused," so that you wouldn't be making any mistakes in your taper, but rather than be grateful, you accuse me of being not "kind"?  Wow, a big mistake trying to help you, won't do that again!

 

And so instead of asking me if I read the entire program thoroughly you just assume it to be that way?  Do you know me? Are you a mind reader? Really? I HAVE read the entire thing... I just misunderstood it because my brain is slightly foggy from my taper off a drug that I've been on for almost 14-years and I started at 1 mg!!!! I've also been on other meds as well! So please take your lack of compassion and assuming attitude off my thread.  You are very rude and I don't need this with all I am going through.  :-[

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way, Raquel, if I had been not "kind," I wouldn't have gone to the trouble to explain (with CAPS and bolding so you wouldn't miss things, because this was already the second time I was trying to clarify things for you) what you somehow couldn't see in that table.  I would have instead ASSUMED that you were lazy (for obviously not reading the Ashton Manual and expecting others to do all the work for you) or stupid (for going to the 1.5mg clonazepam substitution table and claiming that Ashton said to just add 20mg Valium to your 0.25mg clonazepam), or both, and spelled THAT out for you.  But I didn't do that; I assumed rather that you must be having trouble because of withdrawal, and so I tried to help you, for which you then ungratefully told me to "be kind."

 

This is a support forum, but it doesn't mean it's here to indulge you or anyone else in not doing their homework.  That would be abusive of those who are here hurting (and everyone here is hurting, including the family members and caregivers) and those willing to put in the time and energy to help others.  I certainly don't come here to exploit like that.  You may be embarrassed that you "confused" the table, as you claim, but that in no way excuses your deflecting by accusing unkindness or some such nonsense.

 

I don't care what you say... your wording is rude and unkind. Please don't comment on my thread any longer then we won't have this mid-understanding.  Please respect my request. Thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Delta1- it is easy to mistake tone in electronic communications. Bold and caps are sometimes interpreted as shouting. I also thought that your initial response on this thread was a bit aggressive, but your followup definitely crossed the line. Remember one of the rules you agreed to when you joined the forum was:

 

* Be polite towards, and respectful of, your fellow Buddies. We do not tolerate attacks upon fellow members.

 

Many people here are confused and feeling their way forward with little guidance from the real world. None of us are experts, and its ok to make mistakes. When we do, we help each other out. It appears from your signature that you are not in benzo withdrawal (admirable that you are helping your mother) but many people who are experience brain fog and it can be difficult to understand even the simplest things when in withdrawal.

 

Please be more considerate in future communications here, even if you think the person you are communicating with should know better.

 

JKS

 

Thank you. Appreciate your help.  :smitten:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RaquelRocks:  I posted just now in my “Your results with the Ashton Protocol” thread about my meeting yesterday with the “ Addiction Psychiatrist. “. You may want to read what I wrote.

 

All the best!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RaquelRocks:  I posted just now in my “Your results with the Ashton Protocol” thread about my meeting yesterday with the “ Addiction Psychiatrist. “. You may want to read what I wrote.

 

All the best!!

 

Ok.. thanks so much... I'm looking forward in reading your experience! Thank you!  :thumbsup::smitten:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You sound really determined, which is definitely going to help in this process! I am glad you have a doc who will help with the crossover and also that you asked for clarification!

Bella is right, 0.25 mg C is about equal to 5 mg of V.

 

When I crossed from C/K to V, I was at 0.67K and crossed to V in three stages. You might be able to do it in two at your dose. I would try switching to 0.125 mg C and 2.5 mg V. You may feel more sedated at first, but trust me- it wears off! You could hold there for about two weeks and then see how you are feeling. I found the valium to help with sleep which made me feel a lot better. You could then switch all the way to 5 mg V, or taper the rest of the C with the valium as a buffer, or drop the 0.125 mg C and go to only 3.75 mg V (with the option of going all the way to 5 mg if you need it). The equivalency tables arent exact. I found the extra sedation from V allowed me to cross to a lower equivalency and therefore have less to taper.

 

Take care,

JKS

 

So could you help me? I'm thinking on getting a script of Valium when I visit my Pdoc but I'm hoping he will not try to control my taper. That's what I am afraid of.  I am holding at 0.25 mg of "C" right now. I'm not sleeping, feel like crap and my tinnitus is really bad. I'm thinking that maybe I could take my "C" in the morning and the Valium at bedtime so I can get some rest but how would I taper the "C" (how quickly) and how much Valium would I take? Then how do I taper the Valium after I'm finished with the "C"? The Ashton Manual is really fast and I prefer a slow taper. Can you help me with a plan to take to my next appt. in two weeks? I need to have it written down in order to discourage my doc into trying to make me withdraw too fast! Thank you!  :smitten:

 

The bolded above is what I would recommend. Remember that the goal is to swap the clonazepam slowly for an approximately equivalent amount of valium, then taper that after you have adjusted. I cant write you an exact plan from start to finish, because it is best to adapt based on how you are feeling. In terms of talking to your doctor, you could say that based on the Ashton Manual, you want to gradually transition to 5 mg of valium and then taper. If you communicate how much you definitely want to be benzo free, they will probably be supportive. The recommended taper rate once you are stable on the valium is 5-10% every 1-2 weeks. There's a range because different things work for different people.

Take care,

JKS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To clarify, the first step would be to reduce the clonazepam in half (to 0.125 mg) while at the same time adding 2.5 mg valium. That keeps your total benzo dose about the same. You would take that same amount every day for at least a week, and see how you feel to figure out next step from there.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another option would be to gradually replace one with the other. Maybe try this gradual substitution for a week then hold & see how you feel as JKS suggests.

 

Here is a guide that gradually replaces the Clonazapam with the Valium using all liquid.  :thumbsup:

 

      Click on image

3FhN5nP.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To clarify, the first step would be to reduce the clonazepam in half (to 0.125 mg) while at the same time adding 2.5 mg valium. That keeps your total benzo dose about the same. You would take that same amount every day for at least a week, and see how you feel to figure out next step from there.

 

So you are suggesting that I reduce my usual dose of "C" in half all at once while adding Valium? Aren't they two different drugs that treat different things?  That is kind of a scary thought to me. I'll keep it in mind but will have to research a bit on that. Thank you. I'm frustrated!!! :'(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Bella! So I'm confused. Would I be tapering BOTH Clonazepam and Valium at the same time and how many ml's of liquid would I be starting with? You know I'm NOT good with math... and on this taper, fuzzy brain along with severe sleep deprivation I can't think very clearly so if you have time can you spell this out for me? I see how busy you are on this forum and you don't need me adding to your busyness. I'll be holding on 0.25 for a couple of months so take your time.  I'm just trying to figure out how to survive this horrible insomnia at the current time while trying not to updose.

 

Also, I just posted that I'm about ready to updose. I can't get into my pdoc for a couple of months and I'm starting to get really ill from not sleeping. I feel horrible... and I can't function this way. My boys are saying that I've changed.. everyone notices how unhappy I am. Im not working right now thank God but I will not be able to work like this. I work in healthcare and have to do CPR if required. There's no freaking way! Im really discouraged tonight... ready to jump ship and updose! I desperately need sleep! So dang tired and unhappy!!  :-[

 

Hi RR-

 

Sorry you are having such a difficult time. This whole process can be very draining. Do what you have tpo do to remain functional.

 

This tentative plan is a way to slowly introduce Valium while slowly tapering the Klonopin in equal ammounts. This particular example plan takes 30 days to complete the substitution/crossover. This plan is only a suggestion. The substitution can take as long as you like. The plan above has you reducing the Klonopin while adding the Valium a little bit everyday instead of all at once. See how the numbers in the Klonopin column decrease while the numbers in the Valium column increase consecutively? The second part of this plan is the taper from the Valium once you are fully crossed over. This can also be changed to any rate/time frame that you want to try.

 

Let me know your thoughts & we can tweak this so you have a solid plan to share with your doctor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Bella! So I'm confused. Would I be tapering BOTH Clonazepam and Valium at the same time and how many ml's of liquid would I be starting with? You know I'm NOT good with math... and on this taper, fuzzy brain along with severe sleep deprivation I can't think very clearly so if you have time can you spell this out for me? I see how busy you are on this forum and you don't need me adding to your busyness. I'll be holding on 0.25 for a couple of months so take your time.  I'm just trying to figure out how to survive this horrible insomnia at the current time while trying not to updose.

 

Also, I just posted that I'm about ready to updose. I can't get into my pdoc for a couple of months and I'm starting to get really ill from not sleeping. I feel horrible... and I can't function this way. My boys are saying that I've changed.. everyone notices how unhappy I am. Im not working right now thank God but I will not be able to work like this. I work in healthcare and have to do CPR if required. There's no freaking way! Im really discouraged tonight... ready to jump ship and updose! I desperately need sleep! So dang tired and unhappy!!  :-[

 

Hi RR-

 

Sorry you are having such a difficult time. This whole process can be very draining. Do what you have tpo do to remain functional.

 

This tentative plan is a way to slowly introduce Valium while slowly tapering the Klonopin in equal ammounts. This particular example plan takes 30 days to complete the substitution/crossover. This plan is only a suggestion. The substitution can take as long as you like. The plan above has you reducing the Klonopin while adding the Valium a little bit everyday instead of all at once. See how the numbers in the Klonopin column decrease while the numbers in the Valium column increase consecutively? The second part of this plan is the taper from the Valium once you are fully crossed over. This can also be changed to any rate/time frame that you want to try.

 

Let me know your thoughts & we can tweak this so you have a solid plan to share with your doctor.

 

I understand what the idea is with your suggestion.  What amount of liquid would you suggest to start with and what size syringe? Thank you so much for your help Bella!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...