Is this benzo insomnia and is it really this stubborn?

Hi,

I was placed on valium  (10mg/day)  for the first time in Dec,  upon admission to a clinic with depression.  I don't have anxiety,  so not sure why it was added, but perhaps I appeared distressed.  It was lowered to 7.5 in there without issue.  I was also switched to remeron from prozac.

Due to some timing issues (psych went on leave when I was discharged, leaving no instruction), and having another stay 2 week stay later,  before I knew it,  I had been on 7.5mg  for 6 weeks. 

Other than the first day or two when distressed coming into the clinic, I barely noticed a thing from taking valium.  Knowing the nature of benzos though, I wanted to withdraw slowly and started at 0.5mg per  7 days under the Ashton protocol.

Things were going smoothly until Mar 5th,  (1 month into taper, on 5 mg),  I developed sudden , stubborn insomnia,  not responsive to agents that used to knock me out in 1 hour, e.g.  low dose seroquel, melatonin, doxylamine.  I even combined all 3 and still the same result.  Barely tired and also shallow sleep.

I did also start lowering the remeron (under psych advice since I couldnt tolerate 30mg)  about 5 day before noticing the insomnia, however I only lowered from 30 to 26 at this stage ( also tapering slowly to 15mg). 

Now im on 4mg Valium and 22mg remeron.  The insomnia is even worse.

Im not 100% sure if the remeron isn't playing a role, but its meant to be more sedating as you go lower, although everyone is different, but in general.

Its depressing because valium wasnt even helping me sleep,  yet I realise that doesn't mean tapering wont give you insomnia.

Based on the above, can the insomnia really be such a sudden onset  and so stubborn? 

If so,  does one simply stick with the taper,  or go back up to the previous dose where it seemed you could sleep, and then taper much slower (even though Im following the Ashton schedule) ?

Thank you so much for any advice and suggestions.

Yes, insomnia can be a real bugger in this.  Benzodiazepines are strong sedatives.

If it were me I would definitely not go up in dose, I would keep tapering and be done with the Valium so true recovery can happen. 

Sad to see that a person complaining of depression was prescribed Valium, which most people find to be a depressing drug.

Mikezz,

Insomnia can certainly kick in rapidly.  I know other Buddies that took Mirt and tried to cut and found their sleep went South quickly.  I also heard ADs are harder to get off of and have more WD for some people than Benzos?  Just what I heard, not necessarily true for everyone.  Benzos are short-term only drugs that shouldn't be taken for more than 2-3 weeks.  Even 6 weeks of 10mg and then 7.5 of Valium along with Mirt can really mess up your central nervous system and completely destroy your sleep for awhile. 

The Good news is that after you taper and get off of everything, you will begin to heal.  Your sleep will slowly come back, but it will be up and down.  Unfortunately there really isn't any way past the "insomnia beast" while tapering.  It will demand payment without mercy.  But you will get past this and sleep again on your own.  Insomnia was my worst symptom and I still get hit once in awhile with a poor night of sleep or no sleep and I have been off for almost 20 months.  However, it does get easier and life is livable after you get off everything and get to the point where you get some sleep most nights. 

Just know that lack of sleep won't kill you.  Your body will get the sleep it needs before anything serious will happen to you.  Not sleeping does suck big time, but it is only TEMPORARY.  You are much stronger than you believe right now.  Good luck!

I too am on both drugs and in reality the withdrawal from both will be adding to your insomnia, that seems pretty logical to say. However, from my time looking into, the insomnia from Mirtazapine can be extremely "stubborn" and very specific. Being on these two medications makes everything a guessing game as soon as you begin to taper both. That is the real issue. You will also notice people will describe various kinds of insomnia when coming of just a benzo. But the minute you research Mirtazapine withdrawal insomnia, everyone seems to experience the same kind of immovable insomnia.

One thing I will say is, over my three months of looking into it, far more people seem to have success updosing their benzo and stablising (in regards to sleep) than those who updose Mirtazapine. So, as bad as the insomnia is now, you have already begun to withdraw from Mirtazapine and that is very important.

Never be swayed by the notion that Mirtazapine is "more sedating" at lower doses and therefore you should taper down to those lower doses as soon as possible. It's far worse to taper too quickly than it is too be on the more 'activating' dose of 30mg. You can go from sleeping soundly on 30mg, to wide awake because you are tapering too quickly just to get to the 'sedating' doses.

It is important what you do go forward now. That is what I learned. It took me a while to learn that. It's easier if you settle on one drug and focus withdrawing from just one.

I too am on both drugs and in reality the withdrawal from both will be adding to your insomnia, that seems pretty logical to say. However, from my time looking into, the insomnia from Mirtazapine can be extremely "stubborn" and very specific. Being on these two medications makes everything a guessing game as soon as you begin to taper both. That is the real issue. You will also notice people will describe various kinds of insomnia when coming of just a benzo. But the minute you research Mirtazapine withdrawal insomnia, everyone seems to experience the same kind of immovable insomnia.

 

One thing I will say is, over my three months of looking into it, far more people seem to have success updosing their benzo and stablising (in regards to sleep) than those who updose Mirtazapine. So, as bad as the insomnia is now, you have already begun to withdraw from Mirtazapine and that is very important.

 

Never be swayed by the notion that Mirtazapine is "more sedating" at lower doses and therefore you should taper down to those lower doses as soon as possible. It's far worse to taper too quickly than it is too be on the more 'activating' dose of 30mg. You can go from sleeping soundly on 30mg, to wide awake because you are tapering too quickly just to get to the 'sedating' doses.

 

It is important what you do go forward now. That is what I learned. It took me a while to learn that. It's easier if you settle on one drug and focus withdrawing from just one.

Thanks for the reply!!

The goal wasn't so much to reduce remeron to get to the more sedating doses,  but rather because it was hard on me physically at 30mg (harder to go to bathroom, lower libido, knocked out too long till 4 pm etc etc).  Mentally I was stable. 

I shouldn't have mentioned that its supposed to be more sedating at lower doses, that just confused the post probably, and youre right, no guarantee it is.  30mg was actually getting me to sleep.

I'm meant to add in Prozac with 15mg remeron.  Ive taken Prozac before and it never messed with sleep.  In fact, I think I was meant to add the Prozac first and then taper the remeron.  I started doing it the other way around.  (ie try to get to 15, then add prozac).

I cut down only to 26 at first, and a week later, to 22mg, which ive been on for 9 days. 

Given Im on 22, do you think I should go back up to 30 and continue the slow valium taper? 

Thanks for the reply!!

 

The goal wasn't so much to reduce remeron to get to the more sedating doses,  but rather because it was hard on me physically at 30mg (harder to go to bathroom, lower libido, knocked out too long till 4 pm etc etc).  Mentally I was stable. 

 

I shouldn't have mentioned that its supposed to be more sedating at lower doses, that just confused the post probably, and youre right, no guarantee it is.  30mg was actually getting me to sleep.

 

I'm meant to add in Prozac with 15mg remeron.  Ive taken Prozac before and it never messed with sleep.  In fact, I think I was meant to add the Prozac first and then taper the remeron.  I started doing it the other way around.  (ie try to get to 15, then add prozac).

 

I cut down only to 26 at first, and a week later, to 22mg, which ive been on for 9 days. 

 

Given Im on 22, do you think I should go back up to 30 and continue the slow valium taper?

I got to be honest, it's way too hard to say. Like I said, I haven't really come across much information on people who updose and stabalise on Mirt. I've been back on 30mg for two months and although my sleep is better, it's still a mess.

For me, I think that simply staying on a dose of Mirtazapine (as apposed to changing dose up or down) will level sleep out quicker. There are plenty of anecdotal reports on the internet of people who have done rapid taper and sleep starts to settle after the same amount of time it would if you just stayed on a steady Mirt dose, if that makes sense BUT they do get hit with more intense withdrawal symptoms for a while. Also, you will see the odd report of people who withdrew from Mirt without any symptoms but just as many people get off benzos without symptoms. You HAVE symptoms, so it's best to be cautious going forward.

Nobody can tell you what to do in my opinion, they can just give you information so you can make a decision that suites you. You could carry on withdrawing from Mirt to 15mg (if that is where you want to be) and hold the Diazepam for something like 2-4 weeks, allowing you to actually cope with the Mirt withdrawals. Going fast with both can be unbearable. It was for me. I decided to hold a dose of Mirt and not change it, whilst continuing with a slow taper of Diazepam.

You are going extremely fast with your Mirt taper but it's always harder in your situation because if you'd been on Mirt for two years without issues like I did, then it's easy to give advice of going 5-10% every 4 weeks but that would take forever for you but if you plan on staying on 15mg Mirt and not getting off completely, then you should be going slow to get there, especially if you were sleeping on 30mg.

I do think though, I've not come across many people who, once have been hit with Mirt insomnia, have had a quick turn around with sleep when they make changes up or down. It just seems to take a while, which it has with me.

You mention side effects of Mirt at 30mg, so maybe you need to accept the withdrawals because at least you made the right choice on reducing the Mirt.

Thanks for the reply!!

 

The goal wasn't so much to reduce remeron to get to the more sedating doses,  but rather because it was hard on me physically at 30mg (harder to go to bathroom, lower libido, knocked out too long till 4 pm etc etc).  Mentally I was stable. 

 

I shouldn't have mentioned that its supposed to be more sedating at lower doses, that just confused the post probably, and youre right, no guarantee it is.  30mg was actually getting me to sleep.

 

I'm meant to add in Prozac with 15mg remeron.  Ive taken Prozac before and it never messed with sleep.  In fact, I think I was meant to add the Prozac first and then taper the remeron.  I started doing it the other way around.  (ie try to get to 15, then add prozac).

 

I cut down only to 26 at first, and a week later, to 22mg, which ive been on for 9 days. 

 

Given Im on 22, do you think I should go back up to 30 and continue the slow valium taper?

 

I got to be honest, it's way too hard to say. Like I said, I haven't really come across much information on people who updose and stabalise on Mirt. I've been back on 30mg for two months and although my sleep is better, it's still a mess.

 

For me, I think that simply staying on a dose of Mirtazapine (as apposed to changing dose up or down) will level sleep out quicker. There are plenty of anecdotal reports on the internet of people who have done rapid taper and sleep starts to settle after the same amount of time it would if you just stayed on a steady Mirt dose, if that makes sense BUT they do get hit with more intense withdrawal symptoms for a while. Also, you will see the odd report of people who withdrew from Mirt without any symptoms but just as many people get off benzos without symptoms. You HAVE symptoms, so it's best to be cautious going forward.

 

Nobody can tell you what to do in my opinion, they can just give you information so you can make a decision that suites you. You could carry on withdrawing from Mirt to 15mg (if that is where you want to be) and hold the Diazepam for something like 2-4 weeks, allowing you to actually cope with the Mirt withdrawals. Going fast with both can be unbearable. It was for me. I decided to hold a dose of Mirt and not change it, whilst continuing with a slow taper of Diazepam.

 

You are going extremely fast with your Mirt taper but it's always harder in your situation because if you'd been on Mirt for two years without issues like I did, then it's easy to give advice of going 5-10% every 4 weeks but that would take forever for you but if you plan on staying on 15mg Mirt and not getting off completely, then you should be going slow to get there, especially if you were sleeping on 30mg.

 

I do think though, I've not come across many people who, once have been hit with Mirt insomnia, have had a quick turn around with sleep when they make changes up or down. It just seems to take a while, which it has with me.

 

You mention side effects of Mirt at 30mg, so maybe you need to accept the withdrawals because at least you made the right choice on reducing the Mirt.

Hi,  Thank you so much for your reply as usual  (and every one else who replied!).

I had no idea my taper was considered fast for Mirt,  Its scary how doctors say you can just cut.

Another thing, I didnt start Mirt until Jan 19 (2nd clinic visit).  When I started tapering I had been on 30mg Mirt for 4.5 weeks. 

Another thing to note is I'm planning to add in Prozac , so its more of a 'switch', rather than a 'coming off everything'  ,  leaving your body screaming out,  but now I realise tapering mirt (even if just to go to 15), should be very slow as well, and its not like my body knows my intentions. 

Looking back, I believe I was meant to first add in Prozac and then lower mirt to 15,  however, I didn't want to prolong the physical symptoms at 30mg Mirt  (which were actually better than im feeling now).  Also the clinic psyc said 15 mg of Mirt was still an 'anti depressant dose',  so based on this I first started lowering Mirt to get to 15mg, still be mentally stable, and get rid of some of the physical symptoms (that was my goal, probably naive).

So given all this  (sorry if confusing),

Perhaps now Ill add in the prozac,  hold still at 22mg Mirt,  and then gradually (maybe over a month?),  lower from 22 to 15 Mirt.

The other alternative is to raise mirt to 30 , try to stabilize, then add in prozac,  and then in the future, gradually lower mirt,  which based upon what you've told me, doesn't seem like the way.

Thanks again!  Im fortunate to have found someone on both the same meds Im on.

So sorry to hear about your sleep not being the same.  When you were on 30mg Mirt in the first place (before ever dropping),  was sleep fine? 

Hi,  Thank you so much for your reply as usual  (and every one else who replied!).

 

I had no idea my taper was considered fast for Mirt,  Its scary how doctors say you can just cut.

 

Another thing, I didnt start Mirt until Jan 19 (2nd clinic visit).  When I started tapering I had been on 30mg Mirt for 4.5 weeks. 

 

Another thing to note is I'm planning to add in Prozac , so its more of a 'switch', rather than a 'coming off everything'  ,  leaving your body screaming out,  but now I realise tapering mirt (even if just to go to 15), should be very slow as well, and its not like my body knows my intentions. 

 

Looking back, I believe I was meant to first add in Prozac and then lower mirt to 15,  however, I didn't want to prolong the physical symptoms at 30mg Mirt  (which were actually better than im feeling now).  Also the clinic psyc said 15 mg of Mirt was still an 'anti depressant dose',  so based on this I first started lowering Mirt to get to 15mg, still be mentally stable, and get rid of some of the physical symptoms (that was my goal, probably naive).

 

 

So given all this  (sorry if confusing),

 

Perhaps now Ill add in the prozac,  hold still at 22mg Mirt,  and then gradually (maybe over a month?),  lower from 22 to 15 Mirt.

 

The other alternative is to raise mirt to 30 , try to stabilize, then add in prozac,  and then in the future, gradually lower mirt,  which based upon what you've told me, doesn't seem like the way.

 

 

Thanks again!  Im fortunate to have found someone on both the same meds Im on.

 

So sorry to hear about your sleep not being the same.  When you were on 30mg Mirt in the first place (before ever dropping),  was sleep fine?

Hi again. Yeah, its not just that we are on the same meds because quite a few people on here are using Mirt to withdraw from Diazepam but that is because they add it for sleep. Where as we have began to withdraw from it and that has impacted sleep negatively.

Yeah sleep was perfect before I began to withdraw over three months ago. I am still amazed that my sleep hasn't gone back to normal despite being "stable" on 30mg of Mirt. Thing is, I do sleep now and it's so much better than it was. I was having some real sleep issues that would completely impact me the next day and I could barely function. But I have NOT had a full 8 hours in over three months. Not one single day, which is something that seems common in Mirt withdrawl. Now though, some nights I just forget the next day how many times I woke up because I'm focusing on my sleep less (which helps).

You might be lucky and even though you are having withdrawal, they might be short lived if you went down to 15mg and stayed on that dose. That is the biggest issue with someone who has only been on it 4 weeks. I have come across plenty of anecdotal reports online where people have been on Mirt (and benzos) for such a short time and have to withdraw so slow.

Also, interesting that you say your physical symptoms were manageable compared to how you feel now. That is the biggest issue, I've tried to get back to 30mg and be somewhat similar to how I was when I was on it, which was I was sleeping fine and had no issues at all but I haven't been able to stabalise. That is just mean though. You need to take my information and all the other information you come across and decided what to do. Would you be happy if you went back to 30mg and it took two months to stabalise and only improve slightly? Would you be happy if you dropped down to 15mg and were worse than you are now but it lasted two weeks and then you began to improve? Do you have the discipline to stay at 22.5mg and not mess with the dose, despite the window and waves of stablising you might go through?

My advice though is, do some research and once you conclude which one to withdraw from first, make sure you stick to that at a slow enough pace and leave the other med alone so you can stabalise on it. A good one would be to not touch either meds for 4 weeks and level out a bit before reducing one of them. This just allows you to link symptoms to reductions. This is what I've done. I never touched both for a few weeks and then I began to withdraw Diazepam slowly, whilst leaving Mirt untouched from then onwards.

Hi,  Thank you so much for your reply as usual  (and every one else who replied!).

 

I had no idea my taper was considered fast for Mirt,  Its scary how doctors say you can just cut.

 

Another thing, I didnt start Mirt until Jan 19 (2nd clinic visit).  When I started tapering I had been on 30mg Mirt for 4.5 weeks. 

 

Another thing to note is I'm planning to add in Prozac , so its more of a 'switch', rather than a 'coming off everything'  ,  leaving your body screaming out,  but now I realise tapering mirt (even if just to go to 15), should be very slow as well, and its not like my body knows my intentions. 

 

Looking back, I believe I was meant to first add in Prozac and then lower mirt to 15,  however, I didn't want to prolong the physical symptoms at 30mg Mirt  (which were actually better than im feeling now).  Also the clinic psyc said 15 mg of Mirt was still an 'anti depressant dose',  so based on this I first started lowering Mirt to get to 15mg, still be mentally stable, and get rid of some of the physical symptoms (that was my goal, probably naive).

 

 

So given all this  (sorry if confusing),

 

Perhaps now Ill add in the prozac,  hold still at 22mg Mirt,  and then gradually (maybe over a month?),  lower from 22 to 15 Mirt.

 

The other alternative is to raise mirt to 30 , try to stabilize, then add in prozac,  and then in the future, gradually lower mirt,  which based upon what you've told me, doesn't seem like the way.

 

 

Thanks again!  Im fortunate to have found someone on both the same meds Im on.

 

So sorry to hear about your sleep not being the same.  When you were on 30mg Mirt in the first place (before ever dropping),  was sleep fine?

 

Hi again. Yeah, its not just that we are on the same meds because quite a few people on here are using Mirt to withdraw from Diazepam but that is because they add it for sleep. Where as we have began to withdraw from it and that has impacted sleep negatively.

 

Yeah sleep was perfect before I began to withdraw over three months ago. I am still amazed that my sleep hasn't gone back to normal despite being "stable" on 30mg of Mirt. Thing is, I do sleep now and it's so much better than it was. I was having some real sleep issues that would completely impact me the next day and I could barely function. But I have NOT had a full 8 hours in over three months. Not one single day, which is something that seems common in Mirt withdrawl. Now though, some nights I just forget the next day how many times I woke up because I'm focusing on my sleep less (which helps).

 

You might be lucky and even though you are having withdrawal, they might be short lived if you went down to 15mg and stayed on that dose. That is the biggest issue with someone who has only been on it 4 weeks. I have come across plenty of anecdotal reports online where people have been on Mirt (and benzos) for such a short time and have to withdraw so slow.

 

Also, interesting that you say your physical symptoms were manageable compared to how you feel now. That is the biggest issue, I've tried to get back to 30mg and be somewhat similar to how I was when I was on it, which was I was sleeping fine and had no issues at all but I haven't been able to stabalise. That is just mean though. You need to take my information and all the other information you come across and decided what to do. Would you be happy if you went back to 30mg and it took two months to stabalise and only improve slightly? Would you be happy if you dropped down to 15mg and were worse than you are now but it lasted two weeks and then you began to improve? Do you have the discipline to stay at 22.5mg and not mess with the dose, despite the window and waves of stablising you might go through?

 

My advice though is, do some research and once you conclude which one to withdraw from first, make sure you stick to that at a slow enough pace and leave the other med alone so you can stabalise on it. A good one would be to not touch either meds for 4 weeks and level out a bit before reducing one of them. This just allows you to link symptoms to reductions. This is what I've done. I never touched both for a few weeks and then I began to withdraw Diazepam slowly, whilst leaving Mirt untouched from then onwards.

Thanks!  I definitely have the discipline either way.    I think going down to 15 now may trigger more symptoms and going back up to 30 may make the overall goal take 3 times as long.

  I'll hold at 22..add Prozac and  hold the valium taper as well for a while (on 4mg now).

Does this sound reasonable?

Then once stable..I'll only lower one of them at a time (either mirt of valium).

I have to admit, its pretty difficult right now... worse sleep, aches, increase in headaches at moment. 

I noticed you went back up to 30 mirt as you said to stabilize.  Did you also go back up on your benzo a bit?

Also have you ever come across or considered gabapentin for benzo withdrawal.  I saw this on wiki but it seems a known topic on forums.  I know, adding something is not ideal...

"Gabapentin can relieve most of the discomfort of benzodiazepine withdrawal; including anxiety, insomnia, irritability, tremor and muscle spasms. However, gabapentin may give rise to its own withdrawal syndrome upon discontinuation if taken continuously for long periods."

Ive taken gabapentin before, but only briefly in a very low dose, but had no side effects.

Thanks!!

Sounds reasonable to me. It is what I done essentially. I did not increase the Diazepam I just stayed at the same dose to stabilise, which was 5mg at the time. It 'worked' for me, things improved to a more acceptable level. In regards to sleep, I think it was getting over the stabilisation and the previous withdrawals that improved sleep.

I think it's a good idea not to touch either for the next few weeks and at some point you should begin to see improvements hopefully.

I too considered gabapentin but concluded that the cons outweighed the pros, it seems like a really volatile drug. I think that with you are in a better position than me there because I've never tried it. I don't want to add a third mes to the mix. You'll have to keep me updated though if you try it. I'd say maybe look into it a bit more before deciding as you don't want to confuse things further with another drug.

Sounds reasonable to me. It is what I done essentially. I did not increase the Diazepam I just stayed at the same dose to stabilise, which was 5mg at the time. It 'worked' for me, things improved to a more acceptable level. In regards to sleep, I think it was getting over the stabilisation and the previous withdrawals that improved sleep.

 

I think it's a good idea not to touch either for the next few weeks and at some point you should begin to see improvements hopefully.

 

I too considered gabapentin but concluded that the cons outweighed the pros, it seems like a really volatile drug. I think that with you are in a better position than me there because I've never tried it. I don't want to add a third mes to the mix. You'll have to keep me updated though if you try it. I'd say maybe look into it a bit more before deciding as you don't want to confuse things further with another drug.

Good point on Gabapentin..it just throws in too many variables.

I had a decent night recently, responded to my usual sleep agents and got 9.5 hrs (still headachy).  Last night was worse,  and my headaches are still worse than when on 30 Mirt     Insomnia not as bad as when first hit on Mar 5, but not stabilised either

Looked at my diary  -  insomnia started 6-7 days after lowering BOTH Diaz from 5.5 to 5 (had been tapering 1 month already)  and  Mirt from 30 to 26 (first time lowering). 

Because it hit 7 days after lowering,  I was already due for the next taper lowering, and the day after lowered Mirt to 22 and Diaz to 4.5.  It didn't occur to me to hold at 26 Mirt and 5 Diaz.  Perhaps I didn't give my body time to adjust.   

Currently on 22mg Mirt (for 16 days)  and 4 Diaz (for 8 days).  Holding on both now, bit like a deer stuck in headlights. 

Your posts have helped me so much. 

Given the new info I saw in my diary,  Im not sure if anything in the plan should change?    I wont raise Diaz , BUT almost tempted to raise Mirt to 30,  as you did. 

Thanks as always, and feel free to shoot me a msg if you need any support as well.

I found it impossible to tell what is going on in my case. I had relentless insomnia for eight months after I quit alcohol. I was still taking Librium and Mirt then. I thought the insomnia would take several more months to abate because it was a consequence of quitting alcohol. After the 8 months, I started prozac because I was depressed. I started it hesitatingly because the last time I had tried an SSRI, several years ago, I had got insomnia (and had to add Mirt to get relief from it).

2 weeks after starting prozac, the day prozac kicked in, my insomnia totally vanished. It's been a year and I have about tapered my librium. I did not get any further insomnia from tapering librium.

Now I will taper mirt. I do not believe that the lower you go in Mirt, the stronger the antihistamine effect. I feel that is true only in textbooks. Anyway, I do not know what is going to happen when I taper Mirt, so I will not even hazard. : )

Good point on Gabapentin..it just throws in too many variables.

 

I had a decent night recently, responded to my usual sleep agents and got 9.5 hrs (still headachy).  Last night was worse,  and my headaches are still worse than when on 30 Mirt     Insomnia not as bad as when first hit on Mar 5, but not stabilised either

 

 

Looked at my diary  -  insomnia started 6-7 days after lowering BOTH Diaz from 5.5 to 5 (had been tapering 1 month already)  and  Mirt from 30 to 26 (first time lowering). 

 

 

Because it hit 7 days after lowering,  I was already due for the next taper lowering, and the day after lowered Mirt to 22 and Diaz to 4.5.  It didn't occur to me to hold at 26 Mirt and 5 Diaz.  Perhaps I didn't give my body time to adjust.   

 

Currently on 22mg Mirt (for 16 days)  and 4 Diaz (for 8 days).  Holding on both now, bit like a deer stuck in headlights. 

 

Your posts have helped me so much. 

 

Given the new info I saw in my diary,  Im not sure if anything in the plan should change?    I wont raise Diaz , BUT almost tempted to raise Mirt to 30,  as you did. 

 

Thanks as always, and feel free to shoot me a msg if you need any support as well.

We are all different so just hold hope. I haven't slept straight through (as I had my whole life) in three months, since it all kicked off. The one thing I would say is that you might not feel the ramifications for 2-3 weeks with Mirt, it's certainly seems quite common anecdotally. Like I said though, I have gone from like 1 hour a night and barely functioning in the day, with the nights being relentlessly painful, to sleeping but waking up a number of times through the night (i'll take that if it lasts the whole taper).

Great news on getting a good sleep BUT please don't be disheartened if you get hit with a couple of nights of bad sleep one after the other. It seems that stabalising has a kind of wave & window process, at least it did for me. I had like four terrible nights right as I was about to give up but then I just suddenly slept and since then (three weeks ago) I have been pretty much consistent every night.

Do not raise anything. I honestly believe in the long term with mirt, I've probably ended up in a similar situation I would have been in now if I'd just of held at 15mg when I was down there. But here is why I never, it was ABSOLUTE HELL, three nights in a row without sleep and I updosed BOTH MEDS, as well as adding various others in. You are surviving whilst at 22.5mg, so don't touch it. Let things level out on that lower dose, as it will be less to taper in the future.

Sometimes the best move is no move at all.

Good point on Gabapentin..it just throws in too many variables.

 

I had a decent night recently, responded to my usual sleep agents and got 9.5 hrs (still headachy).  Last night was worse,  and my headaches are still worse than when on 30 Mirt     Insomnia not as bad as when first hit on Mar 5, but not stabilised either

 

 

Looked at my diary  -  insomnia started 6-7 days after lowering BOTH Diaz from 5.5 to 5 (had been tapering 1 month already)  and  Mirt from 30 to 26 (first time lowering). 

 

 

Because it hit 7 days after lowering,  I was already due for the next taper lowering, and the day after lowered Mirt to 22 and Diaz to 4.5.  It didn't occur to me to hold at 26 Mirt and 5 Diaz.  Perhaps I didn't give my body time to adjust.   

 

Currently on 22mg Mirt (for 16 days)  and 4 Diaz (for 8 days).  Holding on both now, bit like a deer stuck in headlights. 

 

Your posts have helped me so much. 

 

Given the new info I saw in my diary,  Im not sure if anything in the plan should change?    I wont raise Diaz , BUT almost tempted to raise Mirt to 30,  as you did. 

 

Thanks as always, and feel free to shoot me a msg if you need any support as well.

 

We are all different so just hold hope. I haven't slept straight through (as I had my whole life) in three months, since it all kicked off. The one thing I would say is that you might not feel the ramifications for 2-3 weeks with Mirt, it's certainly seems quite common anecdotally. Like I said though, I have gone from like 1 hour a night and barely functioning in the day, with the nights being relentlessly painful, to sleeping but waking up a number of times through the night (i'll take that if it lasts the whole taper).

 

Great news on getting a good sleep BUT please don't be disheartened if you get hit with a couple of nights of bad sleep one after the other. It seems that stabalising has a kind of wave & window process, at least it did for me. I had like four terrible nights right as I was about to give up but then I just suddenly slept and since then (three weeks ago) I have been pretty much consistent every night.

 

Do not raise anything. I honestly believe in the long term with mirt, I've probably ended up in a similar situation I would have been in now if I'd just of held at 15mg when I was down there. But here is why I never, it was ABSOLUTE HELL, three nights in a row without sleep and I updosed BOTH MEDS, as well as adding various others in. You are surviving whilst at 22.5mg, so don't touch it. Let things level out on that lower dose, as it will be less to taper in the future.

 

Sometimes the best move is no move at all.

Thank you !  So sorry to hear how bad you had it, and good to see that it has at least improved, seemingly by quite a lot from only 1 hr a night.    You are planning to hold valium and 30 Mirt for as long as it takes, correct?

I'm struggling now.  I added in Prozac 3 days ago (10mg for now - half minimum dose),  after being off SSRIs since Jan 19th (and switched to Mirt in the clinic during my relapse).

Sleep last 2 nights has been deeper and almost forgot to take valium yesterday, but was still sleepy.  Also, I didn't take sleep aids last night (seroquel or melatonin). 

But sadly,  Im getting an increase in headaches at night.  Also, my mood has been low the past 2 days.  Even when insomnia hit on Mirt, my mood actually wasnt low like it is now. 

Because of how sensitive I am since my downfall,  Im currently seeking a top psych in a hurry.  I was under substandard care while in the clinic and my own private psych is semi retired and not that good.  This could take over 1 month to see them.   

Currently - 10 mg prozac (started thurs),  still 22mg Mirt,  still 4 valium. 

Thank you !  So sorry to hear how bad you had it, and good to see that it has at least improved, seemingly by quite a lot from only 1 hr a night.    You are planning to hold valium and 30 Mirt for as long as it takes, correct?

 

I'm struggling now.  I added in Prozac 3 days ago (10mg for now - half minimum dose),  after being off SSRIs since Jan 19th (and switched to Mirt in the clinic during my relapse).

 

Sleep last 2 nights has been deeper and almost forgot to take valium yesterday, but was still sleepy.  Also, I didn't take sleep aids last night (seroquel or melatonin). 

 

But sadly,  Im getting an increase in headaches at night.  Also, my mood has been low the past 2 days.  Even when insomnia hit on Mirt, my mood actually wasnt low like it is now. 

 

Because of how sensitive I am since my downfall,  Im currently seeking a top psych in a hurry.  I was under substandard care while in the clinic and my own private psych is semi retired and not that good.  This could take over 1 month to see them.   

 

Currently - 10 mg prozac (started thurs),  still 22mg Mirt,  still 4 valium.

I am currently tapering Valium. I held for around 3 weeks on both meds before I decided to begin he Valium taper. You are not having to deal with start up side effects due to prozac. Now you have added that variable to the picture. Give that at least 2 weeks for the start up side effects to subside. They might disappear quicker though.

Once you feel you have felt the same for some time, let's say 1-2 weeks, then you know you are ready to begin tapering. Taper the Valium first, to me it seems to be more volatile than the others. Then once you are off the valium, give it some time before beginning to taper the Mirt. I'd say you might need to go slower on the Mirt, definitely at first, to see how you react.

Thank you !  So sorry to hear how bad you had it, and good to see that it has at least improved, seemingly by quite a lot from only 1 hr a night.    You are planning to hold valium and 30 Mirt for as long as it takes, correct?

 

I'm struggling now.  I added in Prozac 3 days ago (10mg for now - half minimum dose),  after being off SSRIs since Jan 19th (and switched to Mirt in the clinic during my relapse).

 

Sleep last 2 nights has been deeper and almost forgot to take valium yesterday, but was still sleepy.  Also, I didn't take sleep aids last night (seroquel or melatonin). 

 

But sadly,  Im getting an increase in headaches at night.  Also, my mood has been low the past 2 days.  Even when insomnia hit on Mirt, my mood actually wasnt low like it is now. 

 

Because of how sensitive I am since my downfall,  Im currently seeking a top psych in a hurry.  I was under substandard care while in the clinic and my own private psych is semi retired and not that good.  This could take over 1 month to see them.   

 

Currently - 10 mg prozac (started thurs),  still 22mg Mirt,  still 4 valium.

 

I am currently tapering Valium. I held for around 3 weeks on both meds before I decided to begin he Valium taper. You are not having to deal with start up side effects due to prozac. Now you have added that variable to the picture. Give that at least 2 weeks for the start up side effects to subside. They might disappear quicker though.

 

Once you feel you have felt the same for some time, let's say 1-2 weeks, then you know you are ready to begin tapering. Taper the Valium first, to me it seems to be more volatile than the others. Then once you are off the valium, give it some time before beginning to taper the Mirt. I'd say you might need to go slower on the Mirt, definitely at first, to see how you react.

Thank you boss, agree with the plan.  When Im ready to lower Mirt,  Ill have 15mg tablets on hand as well, because the 15s I can cut into 1/8ths, to enable a more gradual taper.    Agree though, Ill do valium first.

Hope your taper goes very smooth!