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Pool: are you addicted or dependent on benzos?


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Addiction vs dependence. There's much discussion and some confusion around the use of these two terms, so it'll be interesting to know how many of us fall into each category. Which case is yours?

 

1) Addiction - compulsive drug use despite harmful consequences

 

2) Physical dependence - the body adapts to the drug, requiring more of it to achieve a certain effect (tolerance) and eliciting drug-specific physical or mental symptoms if drug use is abruptly ceased (withdrawal). Physical dependence in and of itself does not constitute addiction, but it often accompanies addiction.

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I started and kept on taking Ativan because I thought it was helping me and because I knew nothing about dependence. I don't feel any compulsion to take it and would gladly stop immediately if it weren't for the horrible withdrawal symptoms. So, I'm dependent but not addicted.

 

Edited to add that I took it always under medical prescription.

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I consider myself dependent because I never took these medicines recreationally, and was never really warned in any sense or fashion that would clue me into the severe dangers of these medicines. I have received some doomsday warnings about certain scenarios leading to out of control benzo use, but I was never warned about the extreme dangers of these pills themselves (both as creating horrible dependence and potential of life-threatening, long-term, miserable withdrawal symptoms. I was also never warned about the fact that body keeps the score and that the tolerances to these medications drop down very slowly and that repeated exposures (i.e. as needed use) can cause great harm and potentially lead to daily use. Was never told about equivalency charts, and half-lives or difference in potency between different benzos, and the clinical indications for each one. Was never told that Ativan is frequently used in Emergency Rooms to stop seizures. All this, I had to learn on my own, and it took me a very, very long time to learn what I know now, and there is still so much that I do not know.
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Yep.

 

Definitely agree with that response.

 

I have no desire or craving for this drug either.

 

Actually agree with both responses.

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The effects on your brain and body are exactly the same no matter what you call it, so what difference does it make?

 

I think it makes a difference, because a lot of people out there (including plenty of them working in mental health) brush off any benzo-related problems as purely psychological. There's no recognition of the physical effects on brain and body. So most people will see people suffering from benzos as a purely psychological addiction that can be easily dealt with, and, if it can't, than the person is obviously mentally ill, crazy or "just trying to stay comfortable and not want to face the stress of ordinary lives that people face. 2mg Xanax a day? No problem, you can get off of that crutch in 3 weeks!!" I mean in light of heavy opiates, alcohol, LSD, meth, cocaine, MDMA, and the such, most public still sees Xanax as a mild sedative.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fake-xanax-can-be-a-killer/

Xanax is a mild sedative normally used to treat anxiety and panic disorders.

 

I mean, look at this CNN article. Lots of attention paid to Fentanyl (rightfullly so), but Xanax is still being called a mild sedative.  :o. It's a strange world we live in.

 

Someone reading this article could conclude that Xanax is very safe to take.

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Also:

 

http://benzosupport.org/alison.htm

I was hospitalized for a suicide attempt in 1993 and taken off of 6 mg Klonopin in two weeks. I cannot begin to describe the way this felt, and the horror of circumstances I found myself in. It was like being suddenly cast out of the normal world into hell, and there was no exit. No one around me recognized what I was experiencing, and I was left alone to suffer, or worse, told that what I was experiencing could not possibly be true: “ Benzo withdrawal lasts two weeks,” etc. It was bizarre and horrible beyond description, and I thought maybe I had gone mad, and the world had gone mad at the same time.

I endured the awful hellish state of mind peculiar to benzos for four months. I did not understand, as I now do, what was happening to me. It was an enormous muddle of symptoms and suffering, and my doctor was in the dark about what was wrong with me. He did not recognize the symptoms of benzo withdrawal. The people at the detox hospital were also under informed about benzos. I was told I might be slightly anxious for a few weeks. I trusted that I was in good hands and believed these professionals. When, after four months of mental/emotional torture, in bewilderment and confusion about what had happened to me, as well as being subdued and shamed at having somewhere along the line becoming a “drug addict,” I accepted the doctor’s opinion. The doctor told me he thought I would need to be on benzos the rest of my life for non-specific reasons. He also diagnosed me with bipolar disorder and prescribed a cocktail of other medications. I was miserable, confused, barely able to function in my life, and reinstated at 4 mg Klonopin. Not once did someone suggest that I might be in a healing process from benzos, and that I needed only wait it out a little longer for the progress to begin to show.

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The effects on your brain and body are exactly the same no matter what you call it, so what difference does it make?

 

It matters because treatments need to be correctly designed to be effective. It's stupid to treat someone with a physical dependence as an addict because addiction doesn't necessarily involve dependence. And dependence doesn't involve compulsion so the patient doesn't need to be subjected to expensive restriction measures.

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The effects on your brain and body are exactly the same no matter what you call it, so what difference does it make?

 

It matters because treatments need to be correctly designed to be effective. It's stupid to treat someone with a physical dependence as an addict because addiction doesn't necessarily involve dependence. And dependence doesn't involve compulsion so the patient doesn't need to be subjected to expensive restriction measures.

 

It's also very costly to treat dependence as an addiction, because dependence can be treated outpatient with the help of a psychiatrist, therapist, etc. Addiction treatment involves locked wards, detox/rehab units, mental hospitals, which costs 10,000 times more than the outpatient treatment for benzodiazepine dependence.

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[20...]

The effects on your brain and body are exactly the same no matter what you call it, so what difference does it make?

 

I think it makes a difference, because a lot of people out there (including plenty of them working in mental health) brush off any benzo-related problems as purely psychological. There's no recognition of the physical effects on brain and body. So most people will see people suffering from benzos as a purely psychological addiction that can be easily dealt with, and, if it can't, than the person is obviously mentally ill, crazy or "just trying to stay comfortable and not want to face the stress of ordinary lives that people face. 2mg Xanax a day? No problem, you can get off of that crutch in 3 weeks!!" I mean in light of heavy opiates, alcohol, LSD, meth, cocaine, MDMA, and the such, most public still sees Xanax as a mild sedative.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fake-xanax-can-be-a-killer/

Xanax is a mild sedative normally used to treat anxiety and panic disorders.

 

I mean, look at this CNN article. Lots of attention paid to Fentanyl (rightfullly so), but Xanax is still being called a mild sedative.  :o. It's a strange world we live in.

 

Someone reading this article could conclude that Xanax is very safe to take.

 

exactly, as LFFree says.. thought it safe to take

however one can  become dependant.

 

( however never knew I was dependant on them till I came off them,) and Im not addicted either  :thumbsup:

gave them up when I learnt more about them, and dealing with the adjustments  now

So guess I am neither like many here 

  :-\ :-\ :-\

 

I thought they were for my health actually see this link it was what I was told, and possibly what my Dr was told too. :thumbsup:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14076

 

and I  was told it would benefit me in this area as well as my anxiety/depression which possibly was the probable  cause of the high BP  :tickedoff:

So I did as I was told via my DR.  :o :o

 

Now  I know what  this drug actually was doing

and  what  has caused so many withdrawal symptoms that one is never told about when starting these drugs,

or the long term damage they could do, its been a nightmare.  :'( :'(

 

When I  researched etc found BB and so much info online re them  :tickedoff: I  discontinued them luckily,

as I didnt want to go down the dementia road.  >:( >:(

 

Now in hindsight with so many problems healing the damage they were doing

I wished I hadnt listened to this advice.  :'( :'(

even now  they are even limiting the prescribing of them creating more victims of this previous  bad advice.

 

Dependance based on bad Drs advice I guess.  ::) ::)

 

Guess Ive learnt lots in the process  :smitten:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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What you're all missing is that the medical establishment does not have treatment for any of us, whether we're trying to get off of opioids or benzos, whether we call ourselves addicted or dependent. I agree there should be good treatments tailored to the individual, but basically it would all just be about having somebody sympathetically holding your hand while you endure whatever degree of suffering will be your lot. I'm afraid in the end, we're each on our own to heal ourselves, and a doctor's choice of words or labels will have no real affect on your brain. I was treated by different doctors as an addict and as NOT an addict, and none of them had any help to offer. Actually, now that I think of it, I got more kindness from the one doctor who actually WAS an addiction specialist.

 

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[20...]

What you're all missing is that the medical establishment does not have treatment for any of us, whether we're trying to get off of opioids or benzos, whether we call ourselves addicted or dependent. I agree there should be good treatments tailored to the individual, but basically it would all just be about having somebody sympathetically holding your hand while you endure whatever degree of suffering will be your lot. I'm afraid in the end, we're each on our own to heal ourselves, and a doctor's choice of words or labels will have no real affect on your brain. I was treated by different doctors as an addict and as NOT an addict, and none of them had any help to offer. Actually, now that I think of it, I got more kindness from the one doctor who actually WAS an addiction specialist.

 

the question by the op was are you addicted or dependent  :thumbsup:

 

so I answered that

 

    I was neither actually like many others on here

 

:smitten:

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The effects on your brain and body are exactly the same no matter what you call it, so what difference does it make?

 

https://www.madinamerica.com/2015/11/language-surrounding-benzodiazepines/

 

http://w-bad.org/addiction-dependency/

 

Anyone who has spent any amount of time in the benzo community knows very well the difference it makes and unless they have an agenda they are honest about it.

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Another important question is "what am I if I have been off of benzos for X number of years and I am still symptomatic"?

 

I have been off of clonazepam for just over 7 years and although I am feeling better physically I still have some very significant cognitive issues. I am fairly certain that these issues would not resolve if I were to reinstate benzos (matter of fact I am positive of this), and if that is the case, I don't know how anyone could argue that I am either addicted or dependent.

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Here is another article that is relevant to this general topic and also to my last post about what "withdrawal" should be labeled when it doesn't resolve itself within a reasonable period of time-

 

https://www.madinamerica.com/2018/01/what-really-call-psychiatric-drugs/

 

There is a single scientific term that most appropriately describes psychiatric drugs. Not long ago, I used it in court on several occasions during my testimony to explain why psychiatric drugs can have such disastrous effects on the brain, mind, and behavior.

 

My use of the term angered experts on the other side who declared, in effect, “if you search the scientific literature, only Dr. Breggin uses that word to describe psychiatric drugs.” In fact, there is a long tradition of using the dread word that has been largely expunged from the official psychiatric literature but remains alive in research and at times pops up in the clinical literature.

 

The dread word, which I urge everyone to start using on a regular basis, is neurotoxin. The word “neurotoxin” so unhinges my colleagues because it is a true descriptor for every psychiatric chemical and because it opens the door to an honest analysis of how these poisons impact on the human brain and mental life.

 

Dr Breggin knows whats up. These drugs aren't addictive, they are neurotoxic.

 

No one argues that AD's are "addictive", probably because they aren't scheduled drugs, yet AD's can and do cause the same problems with the CNS that benzos do. They cause similar dysfunction in the brain, yet one gets labeled a certain way and the other one doesn't.

 

Hmmmm......

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Another important question is "what am I if I have been off of benzos for X number of years and I am still symptomatic"?

 

I have been off of clonazepam for just over 7 years and although I am feeling better physically I still have some very significant cognitive issues. I am fairly certain that these issues would not resolve if I were to reinstate benzos (matter of fact I am positive of this), and if that is the case, I don't know how anyone could argue that I am either addicted or dependent.

 

Yes, I agree. Addiction / dependence do not cover cases like yours and, therefore, a third category is needed for people already off benzos but still recovering from the changes these meds induced in their CNS. Benzo damaged? Benzo disabled? Suggestions?

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FG...I have no agenda and I have never been anything but honest about any of this to anybody...friends, family, doctors....anybody who would listen.

 

Your anger over the whole situation seems misdirected when  you try to school everybody in all the harm they're doing by not agreeing with you on proper terminology. You freaked out at me over this several years back and now you're scolding newer folks who didn't get the word about using the word addiction to Florida Guy.

 

It's my feeling that harboring anger only delays healing. I hate to see everybody here feeling they need to plead their cases about not being addicts. Yes, we get it. We were all led astray by medical professionals.

 

In the end, though, our healing must start with where we are, however we got here. Move forward. Take care of yourselves and get well. Then you can explain to your doctors.

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I would definitely say dependent for me.  I didn't even realize that addiction included compulsive usage in the definition.  I actually thought these words were interchangeable definition-wise, though I know that if you are an "addict"  the doctors will treat you differently. 
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[20...]

Another important question is "what am I if I have been off of benzos for X number of years and I am still symptomatic"?

 

I have been off of clonazepam for just over 7 years and although I am feeling better physically I still have some very significant cognitive issues. I am fairly certain that these issues would not resolve if I were to reinstate benzos (matter of fact I am positive of this), and if that is the case, I don't know how anyone could argue that I am either addicted or dependent.

 

Yes, I agree. Addiction / dependence do not cover cases like yours and, therefore, a third category is needed for people already off benzos but still recovering from the changes these meds induced in their CNS. Benzo damaged? Benzo disabled? Suggestions?

 

suggestion from FloridaGuy  Neurotoxic is a good one    :thumbsup:

 

and FinnalyJoining63 Its about how you read others posts really, we all see things diferently through different lens,

I dont see anger in FG posts, just his opinion to which he is entitled, as is everyone.

 

:smitten:

 

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A couple of observations-

 

1- It seems like most of the people who promote the benzo addiction narrative were tangled up with opiates or street drugs at some point.

 

2- The addiction/dependence thing has been discussed over and over through the years, and I have yet to hear an anyone directly address the points that have been made that illustrate how harmful it is to call this addiction. And it's not just that they don't have a good argument, it's that they don't have an argument at all so they refuse to address any of the points.

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Thanks for sharing your valuable perspective, FinallyJoining63. I think in the context of this forum alone, it is just equally damaging to lump people who identify with the terms dependence/CNS injury into addict/addiction categories, as it is to force-convert people who relate to addiction/addictive terminology as people who only have dependence issues/CNS injury. I haven't read your book yet, but I am guessing that at least, it touches on some of this confusing duality, and biochemical vs. societal discrepancies on these complex issues. Also, there have been some excellent articles written by Monica Cassani on the issues of addiction, dependence and iatrogenesis. Even Matt Samet has explained how his relationship with benzos progressed from mere affinity ("oh, if I take this, I don't feel nearly as anxious as I had before"), to addiction ("addiction"), then back to dependence, and then to iatrogenic injury. And he details in his book how all these disparate schools of thoughts regarding benzos have created so much cognitive dissonance in him, that there were many decisions on his end, which created a situation where he was unable to fully taper off on his own. Yet, he had healed so much that it makes me wonder just how absurdly random this process can be. As I read his book, I saw how Matt's attitude changed and how he actually slowly become benzo-wise and realized that what he was dealing with as far as benzos go wasn't addiction but something far more sinister. A complete central nervous system destruction, basically.

 

So, yes, it's very muddling and confusing, and I think also, as Monica Cassani wrote in "To be or not to be on psych meds", everyone has a valid position and perspective for their viewpoints, and she has correctly identified many different categories of people, and the validity of their opinions/views, all the while being brave enough to mention that psychiatric drugs nearly killed her.

 

I don't think it's mutually exclusive to hold the space for everyone, while also gaining a deeper understanding of benzodiazepines and understanding how they can disable people over time in so many different ways.

 

 

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A couple of observations-

 

"people who promote the benzo addiction narrative were tangled up with opiates or street drugs at some point"

 

Nice.  In other words, people who don't buy your line are nasty addicts.  We are the "other."  You are choosing these words, FG, and "tangled up with opiates or street drugs" is a smear on someone such as myself, who never did any kind of illegal drugs and took opiates only as directed, by prescription, and never took one pill more than I was supposed to.  And yet I came out of the experience with actual SYMPATHY for the people you want to denigrate.  Maybe the fact that I don't mind considering myself having been made an addict--if only temporarily--is precisely because I have no need to be defensive.  I know I didn't do anything wrong.  My story shows what doctors' prescriptions can do to the brain of a completely "non-addict" type.  They can make you an addict.  It's happening all over America, with people's fears about accepting the label of "addict" preventing them from coming to understand what their meds are actually doing to them.

 

If I don't argue this out and don't want to run off and read all the links you post, it's not that I don't have an argument.  It's that I think it's a waste of time.  My argument, my case, is my own experience, my life, having gone through this and come out well.  I think I've earned my opinions.  Readers here can decide for themselves who deserves credibility on the subject.

 

LorazapamFree--just saw your post.  Thanks.  Yes, my book explores this stuff.  Monica Cassani gave me an endorsement, as did Robert Whitaker.  I'm not trying to force anybody to identify either way here.  As I said, I think it's all a waste of time.  People should give themselves a break and stop beating themselves up about how they got here, understand that it happens to a lot of good people, and that it's more healing for the brain to think on good things to promote wellness rather than arguing over these labels, assigning blame and looking for anger outlets.

 

There is no prize awarded for being certified "Not an Addict."  The only prize is wellness. 

 

 

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[20...]

As I said, I think it's all a waste of time. 

There is no prize awarded for being certified "Not an Addict."  The only prize is wellness.

 

Wow .  It was  simple question the OP posted, requiring only a simple answer.

 

not arguments re  whose right or whose wrong.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

 

 

 

the question by the op was are you addicted or dependent  :thumbsup:

 

so I answered that

 

    I was neither actually like many others on here

Perhaps Drug  Damaged are better words however    how  that is  is harder to define

:smitten:

 

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Skyblue--You're right and I'm sorry if this caused distress.  The OP did just throw this out in all innocence, not realizing the topic is a minefield and some people definitely DO feel there's a correct answer to this.  I just hate to see people wasting precious emotional energy worrying themselves over choosing one label or the other, and, in so many cases, beating themselves up for not somehow not being more clairvoyant about the future some doctor was prescribing for them.  You and the others certainly did nothing wrong in answering the tossed out question.  I guess if people actually get something out of hashing this over, who am I to say they shouldn't?
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