Is it the drugs, or the psychological condition, we're suffering?

I've got to preface this post by saying I'm not seeking an argument, nor am I belittling anyone's suffering or medical condition. Like everyone, I too am being bit hard by the lies of a PDoc and my resulting dependence / withdrawal from benzos. I want to respectfully discuss a reoccurring thought of mine after reading these forum posts for over a year. So, with nothing but love, here we go....

 

Are people that are suffering with severe symptoms, often for over a full year after stopping benzos, truly suffering from the impact of the drug? Or, are they suffering from a physiological condition, perhaps the same one they were previously diagnosed with and placed on medication for?

 

It seems I occasionally read where someone is placed on, for example, Xanax at high dose for a long time. What seems to be lost is that person's mental condition prior to being placed on these medications. Did the person simply return to that mental condition after enduring the withdrawal process? I would like to think, that in most cases, a condition existed to warrant the issuance of prescription medication. I think we'll all admit that chemical imbalances, mental trauma and diagnosed conditions do exist. These issues do not magically disappear after being prescribed a behavioral drug and then withdrawing from that drug. Often they seem to come back, yet people seem to blame the drug and not the original condition. Or, are people's conditions worse after the drug and thus the blame on the medication, not the condition?

 

Using me for an example, 80 days after jumping, I still have withdrawal symptoms. I had, and still have, anxiety.  No doubt. When my anxiety flairs up, I have symptoms identical to a good portion of my withdrawal symptoms. I tend to blame the drug, but I see it's almost indistinguishable between the anxiety symptoms I had before the drug. I had a health scare a few months ago. I was convinced a type of skin cancer I previously had returned. My horrible "withdrawal" symptoms returned big time! I felt like I was on the first week after jumping. Horrible. I went to my Dermatologist, was told it's nothing and *poof*, my symptoms were gone as I left the parking lot.

 

When I read about someone placed on high dose benzos for long periods being, for example, unable ride in the car a year after stopping benzos, I wonder. Is it the drug, or is it an untreated / unaddressed condition and the effects it has on a person?

 

Thoughts?

 

Great post Overwatch -

 

I've always wondered this as well.

 

I know I have an anxiety problem, and I also know this will not majically go away after I taper off the Benzo's.  I failed with my 1st taper from cutting too fast. 

 

I'm now following my Dr's instructions and I began taking Lexapro a month ago.  I can honestly say the anxiety has subsided.  Not gone, but so much better.

 

I can now begin a more slow successful taper and have the Lexapro as a back up.  I have taken anxiety/stress mgmt classes which helped, I work out 4 times a week, eat healthy, and keep positive outlook,  but none of this worked when I was almost done with taper.  I was in a state of Panic.

 

I never took Klonopin for the high.  Have never been high on a Benzo.  They took the edge off, and helped me sleep. 

 

The scariest day was when they stopped working,  and this is when I was done & began to learn about the dangers of these pills.  I am currently at a small dose with no horrible symptoms so will slowly go down from here.

 

Thanks for posting & a great topic!

I think the answer is complicated because what the drug does to/for us is complicated.  Our physiologies and life experiences add to that complication.  The nightmare of withdrawal changes us - some for the better, but... 

 

Is it possible that somebody in the forum is blaming withdrawal for their own 'natural' anxiety?  Sure, it's possible, but usually I think it's a combination of the two - and they seem to feed off each other to make lives really miserable.  The more a person can do to deal with their anxiety or depression - whether from withdrawal or their natural tendencies, the better they are at breaking that cycle.

It's extremely complex:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=184940.0

My "original condition" was fear of flying.

 

I survived the 20+ year benzo bombardment apocalypse that ensued.

 

I am no longer a fearful flyer.  I recently flew 12,000 miles totally undrugged and stone cold sober without a problem.

 

I do however have about 20 new and different physiological issues I never had before benzos.

 

Therefore, in my case I cannot blame my original condition of aviophobia and must conclude that it was/is indeed the drug.

 

My experience may not offer any insights to others in the same post benzo apocalyptic struggle.

 

She

 

 

My "original condition" was witnessing my mother being a victim of my often violent father who suffered from alcoholism and seeing her take benzos due to being in a marriage that was killing her, and then seeing my beloved granduncle collapse from a stroke and die with a few months, and that's when I was first prescribed those things.

 

So, my original condition is seeing my mother being abused and trying to help her as much as possible (yes, I had to punch my father in the back a few times once to stop him from throwing my mother on the ground while she was sitting in the chair, which he did in spite of my efforts to stop him. And that would also be seeing my mother nearly lose her life in that marriage and then go into ICU and hospitals due to subsequent heart problems later, and seeing my dear granduncle die and then developing profound health anxiety, fear of abandonment, fear of death, etc.

 

I have not met a single therapist who has been equipped to deal with all this. Apparently, they just don't want to go there. I went to therapy at 14 and the therapist never really put the effort to help me deal with this.

I was put on diazepam for severe muscle spasm due to injury and most of my symptoms are muscular which makes me question if that is the original condition.

 

The other symptoms like DP/DR stuff is not something I ever experienced prior to withdrawal and I didn't know when I stopped diazepam thar there would be a problem other than the kind of withdrawal I have had from opiods in the past.

 

Given I hadn't read anything about it when I started getting what I now know to be common withdrawal symotoms  and had never experienced any of these weird symptoms before Ican only assume they are either purly physical withdrawal or that withdrawal has caused another illness be that psychological or purely biomedical - although thst is a false distinction anyway because psych illnesses are physiological.

Since when do the symptoms caused by benzo withdrawal resemble an anxiety disorder? That question could only be thought of as reasonable by someone who's main or only withdrawal symptom is anxiety. What about the people who, in addition to anxiety, can't walk? Or develop tinnitus? Or lose coordination? Or have sight problems? Or have hearing problems? Or have severe formication? Or myoclonus? Or exploding head syndrome? Or who lose significant cognitive function? Or who have crippling nerve pain?

 

The problem of benzo withdrawal is bad enough as it is, with much of the world denying it happens. The last thing we need are questions like this coming from within the so-called benzo "community".

 

And, by the way, "chemical imbalances" do NOT exist. I challenge you to find a peer-reviewed journal article anywhere that documents their existence. Do you know why? Because such a thing has never been medically recorded. How would they even do that? Crack open someone's head and measure the serotonin? The idea of the chemical imbalance is a myth.

Peer-reviewed articles on chemical imbalances do exist.  One need only look for them.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9007096

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2579978/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3964749/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3964745/

 

Anxiety's effect on tinnitus - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27301552

Motor skill affected by anxiety - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3470682/

 

I'd do more searches, but I need to get home.  Hopefully you get the picture.

 

 

I like Dr Whitfield's take on this. Very well done and very unique:

https://bobswriting.com/psych/charles.html

 

I like Dr Whitfield's take on this. Very well done and very unique:

https://bobswriting.com/psych/charles.html

 

An excellent article.

Peer-reviewed articles on chemical imbalances do exist.  One need only look for them.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9007096

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2579978/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3964749/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3964745/

 

Anxiety's effect on tinnitus - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27301552

Motor skill affected by anxiety - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3470682/

 

I'd do more searches, but I need to get home.  Hopefully you get the picture.

 

The first two studies you cite are on seizures, and the second two are on theories of stress where the authors repeatedly say "might" or "may" or "appears to have". None of them establish what you claim of them.

 

Even if one allows their measuring, what would they be comparing them to? Has someone ever worked out what the "correct" amount of neurotransmitters are? No, they haven't. That is impossible, and scientifically is actually a ridiculous proposition.

 

Also, what if you become stressed/anxious/depressed, and this causes a change in "chemical balance", rather than the other way around?

 

And so what if anxiety causes tinnitus? What if you never experienced these things and develop it during withdrawal? The logical conclusion is the withdrawal caused it.

 

And how do you explain people put on benzos for non-anxiety issues, but end up crippled by them?

So I am back to the original problem I had before benzos but with many other more severe symptoms.  I have been off benzos for four and a half years and it's not letting up.

 

Yes, and that's key - you experientially have "many other more severe symptoms". Ones you never had before, plus ones you did, but now worse. I don't see why this is so hard for people to grasp or want to pin on an anxiety "disorder" (I hate that word - human beings experience anxiety - they are not "disordered" because they do). What is some people's investment in wanting to maintain a psychiatrised discourse to explain things? Just listen to the people affected. Let them tell you their truth.

I don't think there is such a thing as the drug doing anything, this is our new selves now, so it's both.

 

Now whether it was because of the W/D that i'm feeling like this, i'm pretty sure. I've never felt these symptoms before in my life, this restlesness and gooey sensations on my body, neither this cog fog, i used to be much more unstable and easily overwhelmed when i was younger, while on this W/D i grew up and became sharper than i've ever been, though i attribute this more for growing up, but also this W/D taught me a lot of things about myself and my body.

So I am back to the original problem I had before benzos but with many other more severe symptoms.  I have been off benzos for four and a half years and it's not letting up.

 

Yes, and that's key - you experientially have "many other more severe symptoms". Ones you never had before, plus ones you did, but now worse. I don't see why this is so hard for people to grasp or want to pin on an anxiety "disorder" (I hate that word - human beings experience anxiety - they are not "disordered" because they do). What is some people's investment in wanting to maintain a psychiatrised discourse to explain things? Just listen to the people affected. Let them tell you their truth.

 

 

Another article I really love on this whole matter, and how the author basically states that the current medical system is just not prepared to deal with the massive number of patients being admitted due to bzd-induced complications, as no one has figured out yet how to solve it. On top of it, add the opiate problem that had gone unnoticed for 15+ years and how there is a significant number of people on both. I mean dealing with benzo problem/recovery alone is horrible enough. Imagine having an opiate problem with that, too.

https://www.madinamerica.com/2015/10/benzodiazepines-psychiatrys-weakest-link/

 

I think that people like the psychiatrized discourse because the truth may be just be too horrifying to look at for too long at the time. Someone said something like. "PTSD is not a disorder. It is seeing behind the veil and being horrified by what you see".

Yes, benzos are so dangerous, because they are catalyst type drugs and artificially enhance the GABA activity in the brain and body to a very strong degree, and the body drastically overcompensates because it cannot function in an enhanced-GABA state for very long....

 

And in withdrawal and recovery state, the GABA system is exhausted and depleted, and the excitatory Glutamate system has become overactive as a natural compensation to benzo use/reduction/stoppage. Enter hellish existence...

 

End when most people get better and remove themselves from that hellish existence, they naturally want to put it behind them, and do not want to talk about it and generally tend to minimize the gravity of their experience for the fear of not triggering their sensitive nervous system by remembering the ugliest parts of this and reliving it, because it is too painful to

relive. This results in very few people talking about this, which leads to the lack of awareness of this, which leads to new people getting on these prescriptions for the first time every day....

All I can say is that I tended to be a somewhat nervous person before benzos, but I never had an anxiety or panic attack. Benzos have taken it to a whole different level, 10 times what I originally had, and has spawned PTSD and ridiculous OCD besides.

I had panic attacks before them, but what I get in benzo wd are not panic attacks. There are complete horrific panic meltdowns that are unlike anything I'd experienced in the past. Pure chemical panic that I didn't believe existed. I'd take panic attacks I had before over this benzo hell, any day.

The only time i had a panic attack was when i jerked off for the first time, i was already feeling my conscioussness fading.

 

I remember i was full of guilt and my mind was storming with thoughts, i coudn't calm down at all even after washing my face and drinking a lot of water, so i decided to run until i get tired and sleep.

It's extremely complex:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=184940.0

 

Thanks LP for posting the link.  I'm going to post a summary in the next few weeks on that same thread for anyone joining in late on the thread.

 

 

Thanks to the original poster for a great question.  I've often thought about this as I've been developing the model for benzodiazaphine wd, tolerance and PWS.

 

The main problem during wd and post wd is with the stress system.  The stress system is severely affected by benzodiazaphines.  I won't get into the detail of the thread above, but in short our resiliency against negative stressors deteriorates during withdrawal, and during tolerance development.  This lower threshold to negative stress can persist beyond benzodiazaphine washout, and in extreme cases can contribute to a PWS.

 

As we withdraw from the Benzodiazaphine, the impaired GABAergic signaling (that is slow to recover, even with a taper) has profound effects on the rate of neurogenesis, particularly in areas of the brain like the hippocampus.  We know that GABAergic signaling is crucial during neurogenesis.  In some of the latest research, I've read that the various subunits in the GABAa receptor differentially affect various stages of neurogenesis.  We know that all benzodiazaphines are not created equally.  Some of them have higher affinities for particular subunits than others.  This explains, in part, why some benzodiazaphine withdrawals are more prone to cause severe wd and a PWS, than others.

 

Once neurogenesis is initially impaired, plastic regions of the brain like the Hippocampus, are affected.  Emotional liability, cognitive dysfunction, and poor stress resiliency can surface.  As stress resiliency worsens this feeds back into the process because the stress system directly affects adult neurogenesis as well.  Negative stressors inhibit the rate of neurogenesis in plastic regions of the brain.  Even after the original offending mechanism is flushed out of the body (i.e., the benzodiazaphine), the stress system can perpetuate aberrant neurogenesis, and a host of other problems affecting the GABAergic and glutamatergic systems..  The thread above is heavily referenced with clinical studies, if you are interested.

 

 

 

These changes are not permanent, but in some people these changes persist long after benzodiazaphine washout, and one reason for that is the reduced threshold for negative stress.

 

I find this true in my own experience.  I cannot handle negative stress the way I used to , pre-benzodiazaphine.

 

I found it interesting that the symptoms you described resurfaced, with the extreme negative stressor of a morbid medical diagnosis.  The fact that you bounced back relative quickly is a good sign.  In time, as long as negative stressors are minimiz, your tolerance to stress should improve.

 

There are some things that you can do to help move towards a normal rate of neurogenesis in plastic regions of the brain.  I present some of them in the thread above. consistency is key.  Doing moderate exercise daily, for example, is a great way to boost stress resiliency.

 

Negative stressors are unpredictable, uncontrollable, constant and unremitting.

 

As the thread above details, antidepressants, at least initially, increase neurogenesis.  This might be why they help some during wd and PWS.  The key is to break the feedback loop.

Scientific writing style often includes expressions like 'seems' or 'appears'.  That means we see a correlation, but since there's always a statistical error associated with those studies (and thus a small chance that the findings are incorrect), we soften our word selection a bit.  We wish politicians, conspiracy theorists, used car salespersons and Fox anchors would do the same.

 

People will believe what they believe.  If you chose to not believe what the scientific literature says about chemical imbalances, there's little that I can do about it.

 

Well said badsocref.

If you chose to not believe what the scientific literature says about chemical imbalances, there's little that I can do about it.

 

Your argument was challenged, and instead of refuting the points raised, you paint me (not the points I raise) as unreasonable, unscientific, whilst aligning yourself with the science.

 

Similarly, there's little I can do about it if you adopt such an ad hominem position.

 

The op's point on chemical imbalances was clearly in relation to the chemical imbalance theory of mental ill health, with depression the experience most often associated with this idea. No serious scientist believes this any more, if they ever did. A quick glance at, for example, Harvard Medical School's view on this would tell anyone that. They are hardly radicals. It's the very cornerstone of scientific endeavour.

Your argument was challenged, and instead of refuting the points raised, you paint me (not the points I raise) as unreasonable, unscientific, whilst aligning yourself with the science.

 

I thought the jab that was directed at conservative politics was a nice touch.

So then does depression manifest itself out of BZ withdrawal and does it go away when your receptors up-regulate (which would be a chemical imbalance) or is depression simply something that develops by not doing what you know you need to be doing or want to be doing and the longer you don't do, the worse it gets. I guess I just don't really understand depression at all... I feel miserable and irritable pretty much daily but is this BZ related or me just not "thinking" correctly? So confused..