Anyone got ideas for switching to pheno, then at some time doing a taper ?

No doctor here knows about that drug, so it would be DIY.

 

Pheno dependence isn't harmless ... I know of one member who has been tapered off with pheno, but she isn't around any longer. Good for her.

 

This country is in the stone ages re: benzos, I don't see how diazepam and librium would cut it.

When you say “pheno” do you mean phenobarbital?

 

 

 

Yes, phenobarbital.

Pheno is only appropriate in a CT and under medical supervision, to prevent seizure in extreme cases.

 

I don’t see what you gain by switching to phenobarbital. It does the same things to the same receptors that benzos do, except it has a smaller therapeutic window, i.e. the delta between a therapeutic dose and a dangerous dose is much smaller.  That’s why the world switched from phenobarbital to benzos for most applicantions when they became available. Back in the 1950s it wasn’t unusual for people to accidentally OD on phenobarbital, including more than a few famous Hollywood stars.  I see nothing to recommend their use in this application.

 

 

 

 

For various reasons I can´t do a regular clonazepam taper, and Tranxene, diazepam and Librium do not appear to be an option,.

For various reasons I can´t do a regular clonazepam taper, and Tranxene, diazepam and Librium do not appear to be an option,.

 

Why isn't diazepam an option?

 

I can't imagine a doctor that would rather prescribe phenobarbital than the oldest front line benzo for a taper.

 

I've heard of a very few people tapering on phenobarbital.  Personally, I just don't get it.  All the downsides of any benzo, plus if you're not careful you might actually OD on the stuff. 

 

The only application I hear phenobarbital being prescribed for much anymore is certain hard to manage seizure disorders.  And even then, those patients have to be monitored very closely. 

 

 

I was given two doses of pheno at a detox center. I was bouncing off the wall. I refused any more doses as I felt a C/T would be better than that. To me it's a very dangerous drug. I know people on death row get it when it's their time.

I just noticed that you're thinking of doing a phenobarbital taper ..... DIY.

 

I would really advise against that.  Phenobarbital is not a drug to be trifled with.  As I said, it was dumped for anxiety control as soon as benzos arrived on the scene specifically because the therapeutic window was so narrow.

 

 

 

I just noticed that you're thinking of doing a phenobarbital taper ..... DIY.

 

I would really advise against that.  Phenobarbital is not a drug to be trifled with.  As I said, it was dumped for anxiety control as soon as benzos arrived on the scene specifically because the therapeutic window was so narrow.

 

 

 

 

One deadly drug. I think it should be banned IMO......

The big problem with phenobarbital is that it will keep those chloride ion channels open much longer than a regular benzodiazepine will to, and considering that phenobarbital and bzd's are cross tolerant, we are talking about a massively increased chances of an overdose. Dangerous stuff.

'Why isn't diazepam an option?' My experience. And I got the theoretical background...

 

Benzogirl, ' I was bouncing off the wall. ' Akathisia, restlessness ? I recall someone else stating she felt or looked 'wasted'.

 

Death row ... they use a different barb for that. Pentobarbital ?

 

'The big problem with phenobarbital is that it will keep those chloride ion channels open much longer than a regular benzodiazepine will to, and considering that phenobarbital and bzd's are cross tolerant, we are talking about a massively increased chances of an overdose. Dangerous stuff.' Actually, that's why a certain neurologist wanted to do this for a certain emmeber who I will not mention here.

Maybe it will help. I don't know much about the way the drug acts on the brain. There are no professionals here ... I'm not sure what physical dependence would do ...

http://benzosupport.org/anthea.htm

Pheno dependence isn't harmless ... I know of one member who has been tapered off with pheno, but she isn't around any longer. Good for her.

 

This doesn't sound particularly encouraging 

I'm just dealing with a soup of relevant health problems, the clonazepam, lorazepam withdrawal/kindling. Multiple forms of iatrogenic damage.

 

Clonazepam does a lot of unique things (related to its antimyoclonic  and absence properties) and it makes a unique tapering experience. Can't split it etc.

 

You know docs don't understand.

Pheno dependence isn't harmless ... I know of one member who has been tapered off with pheno, but she isn't around any longer. Good for her.

 

This doesn't sound particularly encouraging 

 

I think she's fine off and mostly recovered. Got a good laugh though.

Everyone has to make their choices and follow their own course, but I really feel you're going to end up digging yourself a deeper hole. 

 

If you're going to use an illicitly obtained drug to do a taper, I can't see why you wouldn't just obtain diazepam and use that.  That's a known path and the chances of screwing that up are low.  Phenobarbital on the other hand has some real risks.

 

Good luck with whatever you do.

 

 

 

When I said I was bouncing off the wall, I was wasted. My balance was off like I was very drunk. I recall being sent to a group counseling session and I sat down then got up and announced my name is Betsy and I'm an alcoholic. Everyone burst out laughing. Pheno has been used with a combination of other drugs on death row, but not sure if they still use it  I preferred my C/T symptom to that drug which says a lot.

http://benzosupport.org/anthea.htm

 

Wow.  What a journey.  120 mgs of phenobarbital is a high dose......

http://benzosupport.org/anthea.htm

 

Wow.  What a journey.  120 mgs of phenobarbital is a high dose......

 

I would be dead.

When I said I was bouncing off the wall, I was wasted. My balance was off like I was very drunk. I recall being sent to a group counseling session and I sat down then got up and announced my name is Betsy and I'm an alcoholic. Everyone burst out laughing. Pheno has been used with a combination of other drugs on death row, but not sure if they still use it  I preferred my C/T symptom to that drug which says a lot.

 

I've read a bit about pheno. High potency benzodiazepines like clonazepam have a relatively high affinity for the receptors in the brainstem (should I mention intrinsic efficacy?).

Pheno also seems to have a significant effect in that area. https://books.google.nl/books?id=YXqX04Te9ioC&pg=PA1284&lpg=PA1284&dq=phenobarbital+brain+stem&source=bl&ots=ys0OBJozqH&sig=Dvvl5cdtxQXy3jfMwtshQ5LesuQ&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjb0pH_kY3ZAhXFJFAKHdAqAnkQ6AEISDAC#v=onepage&q=phenobarbital%20brain%20stem&f=false

 

Obviously, far from perfect.

 

If I had a neutral drug like lorazepam that would not be so very destructive (nuking alpha1 subunits, interdose withdrawal, gruesome dependency syndrome etc) then maybe I could use that.

I certainly can't use the 'benzo bath' drug diazepam. Pharmacokinetics, pharmacodynamics, downregulation of alpa 1 and 5, short acting, different binding etc. 'You're fine , it's just the benzo'. No. I need a panacea .... the median and low potency benzos do not bind to certain areas for the most part.

 

Health damage, properties of clonazepam, clipped alpha 1 subunits by lorazepam, all in interaction are breaking my body down ...

 

Primitive healthcare is standard.

liberty:

 

That link you provided is in another language, probably Dutch.

Seriously ? I'm reading it in English !

 

'thus, GABAergic drugs such as phenobarbital will inhibit brain stem activity, including the motor manifestations of seizures, while the cortex still generates electrical seizures.'

 

(see other thread, Netherlands)

 

It seems that the local de facto position is: get of the poison first, then we´ll see about any healthcare ...

Even more cruel than the typical US counterpart where they just cut people off.

I'll go to the other thread as I clearly saw mine in a different language. Or maybe it's just me?