[Cl...] Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 I was reading the history of benzos and how they were used on inmates as an experiment in the early 60’s which is where they found out about WD....so they made “ less potent versions”. Librium and Valium— then came klonopin. I was never offer a “less potent” version- the day the Dr decided my grief needed treatment it was full on K :'( The “ inventor” of benzos, Professor Lader, “it is the unpredictability of dependence problems that has been the undoing of the benzodiazepines. Although it is well established that alcohol abusers are more likely to have withdrawal problems, it has proved impossible to predict the other 10 per cent of benzodiazepine users who are at high risk of dependence.” Seems to me everyone is at risk -maybe there are those who just stop and no problems so we never hear about them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[bu...] Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Seems to me everyone is at risk -maybe there are those who just stop and no problems so we never hear about them? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Te...] Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I was reading the history of benzos and how they were used on inmates as an experiment in the early 60’s which is where they found out about WD....so they made “ less potent versions”. Librium and Valium— then came klonopin. I was never offer a “less potent” version- the day the Dr decided my grief needed treatment it was full on K :'( The “ inventor” of benzos, Professor Lader, “it is the unpredictability of dependence problems that has been the undoing of the benzodiazepines. Although it is well established that alcohol abusers are more likely to have withdrawal problems, it has proved impossible to predict the other 10 per cent of benzodiazepine users who are at high risk of dependence.” Seems to me everyone is at risk -maybe there are those who just stop and no problems so we never hear about them? Professor Lader is NOT the "inventor" of benzos: https://benzo.org.uk/lader2.htm IMO, K is a really rough drug... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[sp...] Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 In my own experience this is absolutely true. I drank pretty heavily for a long time and took Ativan for only about a month and withdrawal symptoms have been horrendous. They're both anxiolytics and work using GABA mechanisms. I'd be curious to see the breakdown of users with dependance both by alcohol use and by length of use. I would bet that benzodiazepine dependence (characterized by loss of efficacy, inter-dose withdrawals, and protracted withdrawals after cessation) would increase both with alcohol consumption and length of use. Also where does the 10% come from? Is that just some doctor's guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Cl...] Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 Thanks, Terry for that very informative link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[be...] Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I was reading the history of benzos and how they were used on inmates as an experiment in the early 60’s which is where they found out about WD....so they made “ less potent versions”. Librium and Valium— then came klonopin. I was never offer a “less potent” version- the day the Dr decided my grief needed treatment it was full on K :'( The “ inventor” of benzos, Professor Lader, “it is the unpredictability of dependence problems that has been the undoing of the benzodiazepines. Although it is well established that alcohol abusers are more likely to have withdrawal problems, it has proved impossible to predict the other 10 per cent of benzodiazepine users who are at high risk of dependence.” Seems to me everyone is at risk -maybe there are those who just stop and no problems so we never hear about them? Professor Lader is NOT the "inventor" of benzos: https://benzo.org.uk/lader2.htm IMO, K is a really rough drug... Right Terry. It was Dr. Leo Sternbach may he rot!!💣💣💣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Bi...] Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I was reading the history of benzos and how they were used on inmates as an experiment in the early 60’s which is where they found out about WD....so they made “ less potent versions”. Librium and Valium— then came klonopin. I was never offer a “less potent” version- the day the Dr decided my grief needed treatment it was full on K :'( The “ inventor” of benzos, Professor Lader, “it is the unpredictability of dependence problems that has been the undoing of the benzodiazepines. Although it is well established that alcohol abusers are more likely to have withdrawal problems, it has proved impossible to predict the other 10 per cent of benzodiazepine users who are at high risk of dependence.” Seems to me everyone is at risk -maybe there are those who just stop and no problems so we never hear about them? Professor Lader is NOT the "inventor" of benzos: https://benzo.org.uk/lader2.htm IMO, K is a really rough drug... Right Terry. It was Dr. Leo Sternbach may he rot!!💣💣💣 :laugh: :laugh: :clap: :clap: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Qu...] Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 This is interesting. Personally, I have almost zero tolerance to alcohol, and therefore do not (and never have) drunk much at all. I get sick and headachey within half an hour of a glass of wine, so no fun in it for me. I have often wondered whether this was an indicator for my bad reaction to what was, in reality, an extremely low dose of valium. Anybody else out there experienced something similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[La...] Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 I think there's a huge genetic component involved here. Check out the CYP450 enzymes. Lots of info online about this. They determine how a given individual metabolizes various medications, as well as alcohol and other drugs. https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/genefamily/cytochromep450 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Cl...] Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 This is interesting. Personally, I have almost zero tolerance to alcohol, and therefore do not (and never have) drunk much at all. I get sick and headachey within half an hour of a glass of wine, so no fun in it for me. I have often wondered whether this was an indicator for my bad reaction to what was, in reality, an extremely low dose of valium. Anybody else out there experienced something similar? You may be onto something- alcohol hits the same brain receptors benzos do- which is why a psychiatrist once told me that benzos are solid alcohol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Lo...] Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Seems to me everyone is at risk -maybe there are those who just stop and no problems so we never hear about them? Everyone is at risk. Many people who take benzos do not drink, and many people who drink do not take benzos. However, benzos (valium, librium) are used for alcohol withdrawal. There is no pill that cures benzo withdrawal. Tapering is the only recognized method to minimize it. There are those who stop and have no problems, but most of the time, those are people who take benzos for maybe a week and just stop, or take them so rarely that one refill lasts them for 2 or 3 years. Some people can stop after long-term use (> 4 months), and be ok, but a lot of people do experience some level of withdrawal symptoms even if they don't recognize withdrawal as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[La...] Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 I really wish we could have a large study that would connect the dots. Who is most at risk? Who is less at risk? The study of pharmacogenetics uses DNA testing to determine such info for various type of meds. I'm not sure if it's being used with benzos, though. There's an ongoing study here at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, and they're using DNA to help doctors prescribe SSRIs and antipsychotics more safely. I'll be interested to see the results of the study, whenever it comes out. I think it's a fairly long study too -- over years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[La...] Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Here's an important piece of info about how differently people metabolize things like medications. It's an excerpt from a page about the CYP450 enzymes: What is polymorphism? In different people and different populations, activity of CYP oxidases differs. Genetic variation in a population is termed 'polymorphism' when both gene variants exist with a frequency of at least one percent. Such differences in activity may have profound clinical consequences, especially when multiple drugs are given to a patient. There are profound racial differences in the distribution of various alleles - data on a drug that works in one way in one population group cannot necessarily be extrapolated to another group. There's also this excerpt about the effect of age: Does CYP change with age? Variable expression of CYP has substantial clinical consequences, not only in different people and different race groups, but also in individuals as they progress from infancy to old age. For example: CYP1A2 is not expressed in neonates, making them particularly susceptible to toxicity from drugs such as caffeine. http://www.anaesthetist.com/physiol/basics/metabol/cyp/Findex.htm So, genetics determine much of what goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Qu...] Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 http://www.anaesthetist.com/physiol/basics/metabol/cyp/Findex.htm So, genetics determine much of what goes on. This was fascinating. I'm starting to understand how the shed load of other drugs I was given for my heart attack contributed to my dreadful reaction to a comparatively low dose of valium. Thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[La...] Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 You're welcome, QoS! Of course, we all want to compare notes on things, but we're all wired differently because of our genetics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Bi...] Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I have read a few reports that say people with the Gene for Alcoholism (GABRG3) do have a harder time with benzo's and all other "gabaergic drugs" in general. https://www.onhealth.com/content/1/gene_for_alcoholism_is_discovered_gaba_and_gabrg3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[be...] Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I'll let you know about this in a year or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[La...] Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 What do you mean, benzogirl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Cl...] Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 I have read a few reports that say people with the Gene for Alcoholism (GABRG3) do have a harder time with benzo's and all other "gabaergic drugs" in general. https://www.onhealth.com/content/1/gene_for_alcoholism_is_discovered_gaba_and_gabrg3 Dang! I am alcoholic and probably genetic with so many of my family alcoholics. I don’t drink now but when I did I would abuse K the next day to recover and it worked. No wonder I was so “helped” by the K in the early years and could not bring myself to get rid of my stach after I completed my taper— which was my downfall this time- having a supply in a bad moment of my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[be...] Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 What do you mean, benzogirl? Lapis I am 25 years sober and still have to finish my taper. I guess I'll know then if the alcohol I used to drink affects me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[La...] Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Ah, I see, benzogirl. I wish you the very best and hope that your body will rally its healing forces. How is your taper going, by the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[be...] Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Hi Lapis: It's been okay. My sleep is better, but I now have very sore muscles. Part and parcel I expect. I am now at 11 mg of Valium, from the equivalent of 200 mg. So I think I've made some progress. I am going to slow my taper down now. Still sometimes I just wish to get rid of it right off as this has been a very long road for me. :smitten: I'm tired. :sleepy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[La...] Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 That's fantastic progress! Good for you! Just keep putting one foot in front of the other. You're getting there..... :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[be...] Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 I'm sorry you still have tinnitus. I never had it.. ... yet but I've read it's terrible . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[La...] Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 The tinnitus is the least of my worries. Relentless, brutal disequilibrium is a soul- and body-destroying experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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