Author Topic: Water, milk, baby food or ice cream (!) for titrating  (Read 56199 times)

[Buddie]

Water, milk, baby food or ice cream (!) for titrating
« on: April 05, 2010, 01:44:23 am »
Hi, have heard many conflicting things about what the correct medium is for titrating. Have read that no benzo is soluble in any medium other than something with a very high Ph that cannot be consumed. Anyone have any thoughts or information on this?

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[Buddie]

Re: Water, milk, baby food or ice cream (!) for titrating
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 04:07:50 am »
[...],

For me, milk is the ideal solution.  I use two percent milk and I have had a relatively smooth taper so far.  It is thought that the benzo binds with the fat in the milk to create a pretty good suspension.  I have tried water in the past, and I found that worked ok too, you can actually see the particles floating around in the water.

As far as ice cream and baby food?  I am not sure about that....I have never heard of anyone using either....there was one member on here that used diluted applesauce and he was able to successfully taper off of Ativan....

Hopefully, someone else can comment on the baby food (I believe this may be similar to applesauce in consistency) and the ice cream.

The majority of people I have seen have used milk or water, but I have seen other variants that have worked well too. 

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Water, milk, baby food or ice cream (!) for titrating
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 01:52:35 pm »
[...],

I will reply properly later, but just a quick note to say that "solubility" is not the issue. Doctors prescribe liquid benzos all the time, and they work perfectly well (no high Ph value). The liquid benzo is not in solution, it is in suspension!

Water is a poor suspension medium for benzos, milk is a little better - that is all. There are a number of things we can do to improve the situation, but I'll write about them when I return in an hour or two.

Baby food should work well (as will anything with high viscosity). Ice cream will be either too stiff, and maybe a little too runny (when melted) to be ideal, but I'm sure it would work better than water (and perhaps milk). Though, it is full of sugar too, so this is not a great solution.

I'll be back soon.

Edit: typos.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 04:02:51 pm by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Water, milk, baby food or ice cream (!) for titrating
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 05:52:04 pm »
Hi again,

First of all, I'd like to volunteer that I am no chemist, so if anyone would like to follow-up with better explanations or more strict interpretations, I'd certainly welcome it.

As I explained in my previous post, we are not trying to create a solution. As I understand it, solutions are where two (or more) elements or compounds mix together to form a homogeneous substance (mostly, liquids), but do not interact with each other. Instead, we are adding benzodiazepine (probably, more accurately, ground up particles of benzodiazepine bound to binding agent) to form a suspension. Suspensions always will settle over time (unlike solutions). However, some suspensions are better than others. We can use water to suspend our benzo-powder, but homogenised full-fat (4%) milk should work better. For one, milk is of greater viscosity, and this will slow the process of settlement. Secondly, most (but not all) benzodiazepines appear to have an affinity for fat, so they will have a tendency to bind with the fat in the milk. Homogenised milk has gone through a process to ensure that the fat is evenly distributed throughout the milk (older members will remember how the fat used to collect at the top of bottles of milk and we would shake it before opening - I certainly remember this).

Irrespective of the suspension medium (water, milk, juice, etc.), we can improve the suspension. Firstly, grind up your benzodiazepine into as fine a powder as possible. The finer the powder, the slower it will settle. Secondly, use more viscose liquids (full-fat milk rather than water, a smoothie rather than juice, for example). Thirdly, agitate the liquid immediately before you remove any liquid.

You should also consider how you agitate the liquid: you should shake it, or if this is not possible, make lots of up and down movements with a spoon or stirring rod (avoid actual stirring).

Stirring the liquid will create a vortex. Even if you shake the liquid, be sure to not add a rotational action, as this will induce a vortex. The reason why you should avoid a vortex is that this will create a concentration gradient radiating from the centre to the edge of the liquid. If the particles are denser than the liquid (this appears to be the case with benzos, as the powder tends to settle, not float in water or milk), then the particles will tend to be more concentrated towards the outside of the vortex. It appears that another force (I've just read about it, it is called diffusion flux) results in particles tending to move in the opposite direction (towards the centre) to until they reach a state of equilibrium. I assume this just means that the concentration of particles follows a curve, as all the particles do not gather at the very edge. Anyway, the concentration of particles is not even throughout the liquid - that's the point!

Because of the relatively low viscosity of water, and because the fat in homogenised milk appears to have an affinity for the benzo particles, I would recommend full-fat (4%) homogenised milk over water. However, whichever liquid you use, agitate the liquid - do not stir it. Use more viscose (thicker) liquids for a better suspension medium. Grind up the particles as small as possible (they will settle more slowly).

It is also possible to obtain suspension agents from the pharmacist. We've had posts about this (I thought we had one stickied) - if anyone finds a post, please reply with a link. These suspension agents should work very well, of course, so these would be my top recommendation.

I have never studied chemistry, so, someone - anyone, please feel free to tidy up my explanation.

Typos and small corrections.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 02:05:22 pm by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Water, milk, baby food or ice cream (!) for titrating
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 06:55:08 pm »
Thank you [...] and [...] for your responses. [...], I've heard that milk foams when whirled up with mini blender. Do you just draw out thru the bubbles?  ;D  I know all of this is not an exact science but just trying to get as close as possible.

Thanks,
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Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Water, milk, baby food or ice cream (!) for titrating
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 07:34:07 pm »
Hi,

If the milk is agitated (rather than whizzed up by a blender) I would expect less foaming. I would not recommend a hand blender: it is not necessary; it will not make the benzo-particles any finer; it will create a lot of foam; and it will create a strong vortex!

I would not worry about any foam that might be created. Ignore the foam, place the tip of the syringe deep into the liquid, and draw up what you require. Be sure that the liquid is agitated immediately before you draw off any liquid.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 09:06:04 pm by [Buddie] »
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Water, milk, baby food or ice cream (!) for titrating
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 10:46:21 pm »
Thanks [...] for clearing up the foam/bubbles question. Makes sense.  :thumbsup:

[...]
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Water, milk, baby food or ice cream (!) for titrating
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2010, 02:06:55 pm »
I've corrected some typos and added some small clarifications to my main post above (reply #3).
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Water, milk, baby food or ice cream (!) for titrating
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2010, 09:51:07 pm »
I know one lady who used Jello, she would grind the Valium down..take small amounts out of the Jello every day..bizarre, I know.

[...].
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.

[Buddie]

Re: Water, milk, baby food or ice cream (!) for titrating
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2010, 10:01:58 pm »
I'm not sure about that method. The benzo powder would settle while jello (jelly, to us Brits*) while it sets. It would not be distributed evenly through the jello. Maybe if it was stirred up every so often while setting, it would be OK.

* for you American's, over here, "jelly" is not "jam"! This is clear as mud! ::)
Suggestions, opinions and/or advice provided by the author of this post should not be regarded as medical advice; nor should it substitute for professional medical care. Consult your doctor before making any changes to your medication. Please read our Community Policy Documents board for further information.