Experiences of quicker cross-overs (especially from clonazepam to diazepam)?

Here's the plan, after some thinking. I just stop worrying too much, making a bigger deal of this than it is, and instead I just focus to go by the Ashton manual for now. It seems that nobody else has a better advice, but I'm still open. So in short: I start to go through the stage that I skipped totally, the stage of 1.5mg clonazepam with 25mg diazepam daily. As simple as that. I took 1,5mg of clonazepam (with 10mg diazepam) already in the early morning to ease my symptoms, and to correct the lack of clonazepam in my system. The effects already are starting to fade away. Now, I just wait few hours and take the pills by the book. Then, hopefully in a week or two I'm ready to move on to the next stage.

 

 

sounds like a plan

I think slower is better - particularly when you experience w/d doing too fast a taper

good luck!

..maybe luck isn't the right word...but...i wish you well

Finally a quite good day. 6th day at current dose, so it took a while to build up the drug into my system. A couple of very dark, deep moments included (while feeling like crap for the rest of the time), I couldn´t even update here. No wonder, I was lacking (klonopin) it severely. Now I hope that I can finally enjoy of my vacation. Just swam 1km nonstop in a swimming pool, it did so good. Have been walking daily too. I had tics around my eye yesterday frequently, today only mild face pain occasionally.

 

Firefly, my buddy you were right; slower w/d or cross-over is much, much better. I can now say that I had the suicidal thoughts and severe w/d depression with anxiety, but now I'm much better. But what I went through was a very scary experience, and it left a fear inside me. But I keep in my mind that if and when I'll stabilize 100%, I just have to continue the process SLOWLY.

Finally a quite good day. 6th day at current dose, so it took a while to build up the drug into my system. A couple of very dark, deep moments included (while feeling like crap for the rest of the time), I couldn´t even update here. No wonder, I was lacking (klonopin) it severely. Now I hope that I can finally enjoy of my vacation. Just swam 1km nonstop in a swimming pool, it did so good. Have been walking daily too. I had tics around my eye yesterday frequently, today only mild face pain occasionally.

 

Firefly, my buddy you were right; slower w/d or cross-over is much, much better. I can now say that I had the suicidal thoughts and severe w/d depression with anxiety, but now I'm much better. But what I went through was a very scary experience, and it left a fear inside me. But I keep in my mind that if and when I'll stabilize 100%, I just have to continue the process SLOWLY.

 

I"m glad to hear you are feeling so much better!! This process is different for everybody but slower gives your brain time to adjust and makes the changes less symptomatic (ideally ).  Good to hear you're doing better .  And good to hear you're out and about exercising!! good for you!!    .  I've been a little lazy in that department 

 

And I hear you on the scary experience.  I think now that you're re-instated and going slower you'll be much better and also better at hearing what your body is telling you - trust yourself about symptoms and what you are feeling and how fast or slow to take things and you should be good

Thank you firefly Exercising is essential for me, or even just a slow walk in the nature. Too bad that the weather here in finland is during this time cloudy and wet almost daily, seeing the sun more often would be a nice bonus. But another quite steady day almost behind me. Although the mornings are still a bit uncomfortable, but it's getting better, also my sleep has improved.

Just a quick update, it's a bit over a week at this stage. Not so vivid dreams anymore, and I have been able to fall asleep again in the early morning. But it's only 6 days ago when I still was in a deep hole, so obviously I'm not even considering to drop the dose yet. I just wait day by day and hope to see some progression, while realizing that it's not linear. I am now used to this routine, 10mg valium/.5mg klonopin in the morning, 5mg/.5mg in the afternoon and 10mg/.5mg again 30-60min before going to bed. I still have some morning anxiety/depression (I keep 12 hours between the night and morning doses), and the same happens at some point between the doses too, I just wait that the time of the "hangover" feeling will shorten as days go by. Then, when I'm not feeling the hangover anymore between doses, or it doesn't improve anymore (I'm not sure can you avoid that even with the diazepam...?), I consider moving to another stage.

 

Maybe it's also a part of my personality, which is showing up at some point between the doses, because I've always been quite melancholic and sentimental person (although I used to laugh also a lot more than during the time on benzos), and benzos just makes me more insensitive. But I'm relieved that I don't get as deep benzo-depression anymore as I got when was only on klonopin, nowhere near it. That's it for now, I'll update when I feel like it/have something to tell, best wishes to you all there who are reading this.

 

PS. off topic; I was bullied a bit at elementary school, and even at home I had twin sister and big brother, and at times they kind of bullied me together which left some bad memories inside me too, the brother once even physically attacked to me when I was in my early teens. Nowadays I'm not dealing with my brother at all. The same continued once in a while at work (when I was working), and it has made me even more fragile and cynical, I'm constantly on my toes when interacting with other people. I have this chronic feeling that I'm not good enough. Once even my father-in-law said to me basically "you're nothing" when I was training hard (was a distance runner at that time) and was so fatigued that I said to him that it's better for me to skip the forest hiking with the other family of my wife, which was ahead later during that day. I was so shocked that I couldn't say anything than just repeated that I'm just too fatigued. After it I was angry and disappointed that I couldn't say to him that you shouldn't say things like that to anyone. It took time to get over it. I had a walk in a forest yesterday with my wife and we discussed again about everything including that moment from the past (of course I said to her what happened right after it happened). A part behind my hard work in the gym is obviously to get at least physically stronger, because I afraid of people, but it doesn't fix the scars in my mind. My wife is a great person, and so is my nearly 7 years old daughter, they mean everything to me.

Hi.

I hear ya on the morning anxiety/depression - even though i take my ativan at night...still how i wake <sigh>.

and i totally hear you on the benzos making you less emotionally sensitive - they call it 'emotional blunting' and i felt it a lot on clonazepam but am still feeling it on ativan..i don't like it!!! it's one reason i want off fast! - that and it's messing with my memory too.

 

And sorry to hear about the bullying..sadly i relate to that too!...And sorry to say this...but you're father-in-law is an ass (lol - can i say that? well, at least i mean that his comment was mean). I wish i could say i don't relate to that too but sadly i think sensitive people attract bullies and people like that.  Sorry to hear about that.  Just remember, it's not a reflections of you -you are not other people's thoughts.  And his thoughts are ONLY a reflection of him - not you.

 

It's great you have a wonderful wife and daughter.  Support while tapering is so crucial...and not everyone has that....so hold them tight and count your blessings

 

 

sorry to say this...but you're father-in-law is an ass (lol - can i say that? well, at least i mean that his comment was mean). I wish i could say i don't relate to that too but sadly i think sensitive people attract bullies and people like that.

 

It's great you have a wonderful wife and daughter.  Support while tapering is so crucial...and not everyone has that....so hold them tight and count your blessings

 

Hi Firefly! You can say it, about my father-in-law It was mean, very mean, and he even continued his drivel, saying "should I call a doctor to you...?" (because of the fatigue from my running training). But I have gone through it (probably will not ever completely forget it though) and we have actually a quite good relationship nowadays.  Although I thought the same before that incident, that we are fine (and thanks to that his comment was as big shock for me), but it took some years to process and kind of forgive him, and get the trust back. I finally pondered that he apparently had some emotional inhibitions (don't know is that the right word) against me that was dismantled during that moment. After all, I was "stealing" his daughter    And you mentioned the other reason, I was/am shy and he sensed it and he said what he said. It would have been a different situation if he had been the one who was too fatigued to go even for a walk in the woods  Anger takes a lot of energy and I don't want to spend the rest of my life being angry to him, because of some goddamn stupid comment from the past.

 

About my cross-over, today is my 14th day at current dose. I have had still occasional face pain and tics, but not the face pain anymore today. And I still have some morning depression and sadness especially in the morning, before the dose. Even today I had a bad moment in the morning, I cried a bit too and was quite desperate, then after an hour took the dose and have felt much better during the day. This made me think that maybe I still have to continue for a while at this dose. Not want to start tapering too fast again... So much for now.

Anger takes a lot of energy and I don't want to spend the rest of my life being angry to him, because of some goddamn stupid comment from the past.

 

<nod> yup.  I agree.  I have those in my life who are for me..like your father-in-law is to you.  And that's where I end up too - it's too much energy and pain for me to hold onto the anger.  It's not worth my time or energy. 

 

and sorry about the symptoms still lingering. I can't comment about if it means you need to hang out at that dose longer...I can only tell you to trust yourself.

I think we are all our best advocates and the only ones who, in the end, know what we need. 

I'm still learning to trust my body - my brain has pushed my cuts a little sooner than i should have...i'm ok.  but i think i could have stood to wait a few days to at least a week on the last one.  I'm holding this one longer just to be sure and not jump the gun too fast .. (i tend to feel ok and think..ok ..i can cut.  But sometimes it's better to hold for a bit i think)

 

good luck and i hope it helps to hold

Hi again Firefly! I'm still alive. Haven't been on these boards for a while. A week before I got enough, the klonopin doses didn't made me feel really better anymore, rather just too depressed, so I made a cut from it and upped the valium to it's maximum amount. Now, after a full week, 7 days at that stage I move forward today. And looking forward to it. So I did stabilize after all. I've listened a music for hours daily and exercised almost daily. I believe that thanks to the strong background from the physical activity I have, I can do quite hard workouts in my home gym 3 times per week, and jog or bike in the days between, without lifting the cortisol levels up too much. It makes me pleasantly tired so that I can spend the rest of the day on the couch better, also helps my sleep, I believe.

 

I'm actually doing a douple tapering, since I cut the amount of coffee too a bit when I cut the valium, it helps with the withdrawal, and like I've said, the amounts of coffee and klonopin has always had a connection.

 

I'll update again when I've moved forward on this f*king (sorry) process. I feel like I don't want to spent too much energy to think/describe my feelings. I have a precise diary though where I mark the daily doses and time of the doses (it varies a bit sometimes) and noticeable feelings, like when the "hangover" started etc. About that subject, the face pain faded away and didn't come back even when I made the cut last week.

 

Bye for now, very much of love and inner peace to you Firefly! 

Good to hear from you ACE...and good to hear you're doing so well.  Happy for you!!  This is certainly good news

 

and i hear you on not dwelling on thinking about this and all the associated feelings and stuff. No worries...i think we all understand that

 

And much love and peace to you too! 

 

and p.s. you're giving me inspiration to start back working out!

p.s. you're giving me inspiration to start back working out!

 

I appreciate it very much, and am glad if my example/experiences from the benefits that I get makes other people at least thinking to start exercising!

 

From my experience, it takes some time (which could be months) until you start to REALLY feel the mental benefits from the workouts. It takes time for the brains to start giving you the increased dopamine, serotonin levels and endorphins that leads to well-being after and DURING the workouts. I really feel the endorphins, or whatever, during the gym workouts much better now than in the beginning. I red this from somewhere where they compared the effects of exercise and anti-depressants, to depression. The conclusion was that exercising was at least as effective, and you don't have to fear about will this "drug" work forever, not mentioning the withdrawal part... If you don't want to exercise anymore, or want to take some time off, you can just do it, cold-turkey! 

 

Aerobic exercise creates the base, so don't push it. The less active you've been, the less intensity should be used in the beginning. Listen to your body. You could start like doing just some easy walks, then include parts of jogging into it if you want, until you're fit enough to jog the whole distance (again, IF you want), being pleasantly tired afterwards. The main thing is that you keep exercising and take the days off and the easy weeks when you feel like it. With this aerobic exercise, it would be great if you could start doing some gym/home gym workouts using your body weight, like 2-3 times per week. Keep it short and simple at first. Just repeat some simple movements like sit-ups/abs work, back exercises, half squats (try to activate the glutes and keep the core nice and tight, to avoid knee problems), push-ups (be careful), and especially frequent upper back exercises (like simply standing with your knees bent slightly and the upper body leaning forward, keeping your core and glutes tight, and lifting dumbells up, towards your back, thinking like squeezing your elbows closer to each other) are very important in these days when we spend a lot of time sitting and typing like I am now, which makes the shoulders (rotator cuffs) and the chest muscles imbalance with the upper back. It changes the posture and the shoulders moving towards the chest. So the upper back work with maybe also some rotator cuff exercises would be great. Also stretching the chest muscles and the front shoulders would reduce the tightness and fix the posture. IF interested, just search "rotator cuff exercises" from youtube and you'll understand what that means in the first place  The "planks" which are popular in these days can be very detrimental to your rotator cuffs and to the lower back, if done too much, too soon.

 

And sorry, I probably made it sound way more complicated and BORING than I wanted. But once you get more familiar with the few exercises, you can feel the improvements and you don't have to spent as much mental energy (focusing on the technique etc) anymore during the workouts. Just repeat these simple movements for weeks (up to around 6-8 weeks) before you could start thinking to add some more movements into your workouts, if you want  And lastly, listen to your body also in the gym, stop the exercise you're doing before a failure, that saves a lot of physical and mental energy and avoids lifting up the cortisol levels too much. Be gentle to yourself, don't fight against your body, and mind. And remember to eat well after the exercise, some sweets, chocolate or ice cream for dessert is great fuel to refill your reduced glycogen levels thanks to the workout    Best wishes!

 

 

Hi.

thanks for your thoughts.  I actually have been quite active in the past.  Just the recent past ...not so much . 

It's just inspiring hearing you're managing to keep active while tapering - that's fantastic

Hope it's still going well.

Firefly

Firefly!

 

Day 6 at this stage, so after tomorrow it's a full week behind me. I'll survive. I have some extra stress coming though now for a few weeks, starting tomorrow. I had a call 2 days ago from the technical/maintenance department of my home town and was asked to work 3 weeks and 2 days for them, due to a sick leave. I figured that I'll be strong enough to make it and earn some money during this w/d. I have a small "firm" that includes me, my car and some tools. So I can define my own working schedule. It's a good sign that I thought that I'll survive. But let's see how it goes. Sometimes my brains doesn't just work as fast than before and I forget things more easily, you know.

 

Ironically, I got sick in the last night, and have had a fever today. But I've took garlic during the day and feel better now. Not an ideal situation to be mentally and physically sick, but it's the weekend soon! Hope that things goes well, although this probably causes a small delay to my w/d, but lets's see..

An update finally, not have been here for a while... I've been working and have 2-3 weeks left to go.

 

I spent 15 days at .75mg klonopin/30mg valium, and it was tolerable. It included the harder times, but not too hard, and in the last 3-4 days at it I didn't have any w/d depression anymore, only a stronger depression and emotional blunting from the doses. Yesterday I was at a music concert of a Finnish singer, Jenni V a r t i a i n e n (I pressed the space button between the letters of her last name by purpose...). In order to test myself and to feel more deeply her performance, I took only my "morning" dose 4 hours before the concert, and took the evening dose, only .5mg klonopin instead of .75mg, with the valium, right after I got back to the hotel where we stayed one night. I had no problems to be among with a bit over 1000 human beings in the same space. And the best part is that after the concert she contacted the audience, throwing some high-fives with some of them, INCLUDING ME!

 

I left from the concert a big smile on my face and a warm inner feeling. She's a great singer, with a great personality. The lyrics of her songs, and the melodies are great, I've listened them so many times especially in this fall when I've struggled with the w/d. And yesterday I saw and heard, and physically contacted her on live, which was a great bonus! I will never wash my left hand anymore, lol. 

 

So here's the plan for the coming 1-2 weeks, I'll slow down the w/d a bit and will take the klonopin .75/.5mg every other day, averaging .625mg. Valium stays at the 30mg until I'm off of klonopin. Best wishes, Ace.

Just updated my current doses. Bye

I get you!  Laying here exausted and feeling low you got me motivated too get off my A××  and get to the gym. Like you, I'm into fitness, but it became very hard when my tolerance of pills went up, and now trying too taper. Working out is the only thing that makes me feel a little better. It wakes my tired body and mind up. The only thing that helps.

I get you! Laying here exausted and feeling low you got me motivated too get off my A××  and get to the gym. Like you, I'm into fitness, but it became very hard when my tolerance of pills went up, and now trying too taper. Working out is the only thing that makes me feel a little better. It wakes my tired body and mind up. The only thing that helps.

 

Glad to hear, that I am motivating you! Here's more motivation (I hope) for you; a quote from somewhere where someone speaks about the effects of resistance (weights or so) training, versus aerobic training:

 

"Excercise as much as possible - not aerobics as this could exacerbate symptoms, but weights and strength/resistance training - this also encourages brain healing (please Google this), there's lots of information about how it is proven to facilitate neurogenerative, neuroadaptive, and neuroprotective processes and it will also minimise anxiety and insomnia. You don't have to join or go to a gym, again, there's lots of work outs on Youtube, all you need is a set of dumbells/free weights and perhaps a mat and a chair."

 

Note that I'm not as black and white, I believe that even a slow walking is great to reduce the anxiety and cortisol levels (that can rise if you do intense gym work). And I don't know how "aerobics could exacerbate symptoms"... But weights are great, I just stay under the fine line that I'm not working out too hard. Comfortably hard should be the feeling, in my opinion, and experience. After this week I'll take the last week of the year easily, just some X-country skiing and a light bodyweight workout.

Just updated my current doses, 4th day at just .25mg clonazepam (w/ 30mg diazepam), and no worries yet, just like that I've experienced before. It seems that I can make this cross-over  Good luck and love.

 

No clonazepam today. Haven't experienced it in a long time. Now .25mg klonopin EOD. Happy new year (I hope) soon.

Yea, I'm more weights than Cardio myself. It does help, I do belong to a gym. Planet fitness, It's cheap and does the trick.  I try and get some light Cardio in as well, but the weights make me feel alive.  I been cutting my doses In baby steps, very slow because I'm working full time. Need too be careful with this.

I get you! Laying here exausted and feeling low you got me motivated too get off my A××  and get to the gym. Like you, I'm into fitness, but it became very hard when my tolerance of pills went up, and now trying too taper. Working out is the only thing that makes me feel a little better. It wakes my tired body and mind up. The only thing that helps.

 

Glad to hear, that I am motivating you! Here's more motivation (I hope) for you; a quote from somewhere where someone speaks about the effects of resistance (weights or so) training, versus aerobic training:

 

"Excercise as much as possible - not aerobics as this could exacerbate symptoms, but weights and strength/resistance training - this also encourages brain healing (please Google this), there's lots of information about how it is proven to facilitate neurogenerative, neuroadaptive, and neuroprotective processes and it will also minimise anxiety and insomnia. You don't have to join or go to a gym, again, there's lots of work outs on Youtube, all you need is a set of dumbells/free weights and perhaps a mat and a chair."

 

Note that I'm not as black and white, I believe that even a slow walking is great to reduce the anxiety and cortisol levels (that can rise if you do intense gym work). And I don't know how "aerobics could exacerbate symptoms"... But weights are great, I just stay under the fine line that I'm not working out too hard. Comfortably hard should be the feeling, in my opinion, and experience. After this week I'll take the last week of the year easily, just some X-country skiing and a light bodyweight workout.

Just updated my current doses, 4th day at just .25mg clonazepam (w/ 30mg diazepam), and no worries yet, just like that I've experienced before. It seems that I can make this cross-over  Good luck and love.

  Interesting hearing about Aerobic excercise exacerbating the symptoms. I never heard that.

Yesterday evening I was supposed to take .25mg clonazepam, but I decided (was feeling, actually, almost great=no w/d symptoms that I usually have in the first 2 days after a cut, only a small tic once earlier in yesterday) that I'm done with it. Now I'm just on diazepam. So I guess I'm done with the point of this thread. I won't come back on clonazepam. But I'll use this thread still now and then, probably. Happy new year!

It's a full week now since I jumped from clonazepam, and it has been the easiest week than after any other cut I've made. Very surprised, but pleased! Only minor tics a couple of times, mild face pain too only a couple of times, no excessive anxiety or withdrawal depression (only in the 4th day I felt quite numb).

I was even working yesterday, no problems. But I stay at this level of diazepam for another week or at least total of 10 days, to play it safe.

I already made another cut yesterday, taking 5mg away from diazepam. Now I'm at 25mg. The cut was relatively the same that I did with clonazepam. Now I'm gonna stay at this level 2 weeks for sure, at least. But I'm pleased that I did some shopping today without problems. Bought another TV, a smaller one into my room (I like to sleep on my own). And I'm getting closer to be benzo-free, but it's a long way to go still. I've calculated that it might happen right before june, but let's see.

 

Firefly, where are you? I Hope that you're feeling well... I miss you.

 

EDIT. Today is my 3rd day after the cut, and decided to back off to 27,5mg per day on average, so I'll take 25mg only EOD.

1/3 to go "anymore". It´s a long road still. Feeling has been tolerable. I´ll do this. I´ll update again when I'm getting closer to zero, so I won´t come back to this forum until then.