Valium build up?

Hey dear Benzobuddies,

 

I am quite confused about the way in which Diazepam acts on our bodies. I mean, the terminal elimination half-life of the active metabolite N-desmethyldiazepam is up to 100 hours. If one would be dosing daily, wouldn't that mean some overlap, in that the Diazepam accumulates and that eventually you'll get to a point where Diazepam is several times more concentrated in your blood than the indended dose?

 

I'm am currently on a short-acting benzo equivalent to 7.5mg of Valium. I think of substituting, but I don't really understand this aspect and I want to avoid doing more damage to my brain, as I am already very ill and can't wait to be off this poison for good.

 

Sending you all my love.

You've done some research.  Awesome!

 

7.5mg Valium is relatively low.  The FDA recommended max daily is 40mg, whereas the equivalent max daily of the shorter acting benzos is higher (e.g. Ativan 6mg is 60mg/day in a Valium equivalent perspective).

 

I have recently started at 40mg/day Valium in a withdraw from Ativan.  I delay my Valium doses each day to the afternoon because the effects seem to last through the morning.

 

Conform with your doc, but I would personally would be very happy if I could get by on less that 10mg.

 

Your body will help tell you the right thing to do.

Hey dear Benzobuddies,

 

I am quite confused about the way in which Diazepam acts on our bodies. I mean, the terminal elimination half-life of the active metabolite N-desmethyldiazepam is up to 100 hours. If one would be dosing daily, wouldn't that mean some overlap, in that the Diazepam accumulates and that eventually you'll get to a point where Diazepam is several times more concentrated in your blood than the indended dose?

 

I'm am currently on a short-acting benzo equivalent to 7.5mg of Valium. I think of substituting, but I don't really understand this aspect and I want to avoid doing more damage to my brain, as I am already very ill and can't wait to be off this poison for good.

 

Sending you all my love.

 

 

Dr. Ashton and many others (professors and high qualified doctors and scholars) already thought that one through for us many years ago and they all agree on it being the safest and best drug to taper off of and to replace other drugs and benzo's and Z-drugs and SSRI's and alcohol and heroin, do I need to continue ... 

 

Oké you are thinking too much and you're too intelligent. You're overthinking this. Of course you're confused. We ALL are (even people that don't go through withdrawals). This is what happens when intelligent people go into withdrawal ...   

 

You're so smart I think you already know what to do deep inside but you need some kind of a "go ahead" or "green light" reassurance from us benzo-buddies. We can't make that decision for you. Only you know your own situation and I have to say this again, you are probably smarter than most in here so you should trust yourself a bit more ... I been like you, trust me on this one. 

 

But you shouldn't be confused about the effects of Valium on your body. Obviously it's the most safe drug and benzo on your body and you should know this by now. They use it to get people off other benzo's and alcohol for a reason. Because it's much easier, milder, softer and "healthier" on and for your body than any other drug. They even use it for coming off an SSRI and what have you ...

 

Now the equivalent is 15 mg of Zoplicone to 10 mg of Valium. I honestly believe if you would just drop the Zoplicone and replace it with 7,5 mg of Valium ( 5 mg perhaps in your case because of the body weight and you only being on 75% of the original dose anymore and Valium being a totally new drug to you, etc ... ) you would sleep better and longer. Because I did replace 10 mg of Zolpidem once with 5 mg of Valium and this was certainly the case for me. Also I was much calmer during the day which makes sense. Now you're going to aks me : "Well TR... , if that's the case why aren't you doing the crossover to 5 mg of Valium ??" Because I don't have enough Valium left and my doctor is on vacation plus then I have to up dose to more Valium plus I just like the way Zolpidem feels at the start of intake and I do have some trouble to let it go because of this. I'm scared to do the crossover myself.   

 

I think we both need to try though or we will both have no sleep whatsoever anymore. Maybe we can try it together.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi TotalRelapse, thanks so much for your reply, it has helped me a lot as I feel so misunderstood and lonely on this difficult and painful road. And thanks, above all, for the ego boost! 

 

You situation is even more complicated than mine, and you are so kind to support people even though you yourself are in a bad place. I must tell you that I am still hesitant about switching to Valium, as I have read stories here on the forum of people that regret having crossed from their original benzo to Diazepam, and also Dr. Jennifer Leigh dosen't support the idea. I quote from her blog: "The Ashton manual encourages to cross-over to Valium. That is not always a wise thing to do.[...] The action of Valium is different from the action of any benzo it is going to replace." link: https://benzowithdrawalhelp.com/2011/04/03/valium-cross-over/

 

I must also take into account the factor that I have become hopelessly addicted after only two months on these things and started to experience bad withdrawal symptoms even on the regular, therapeutic dose. My symptoms are worse than even some long time users', so clearly my brain must be overly sensitive to psychiatric meds and I don't know how it will react to yet another, different one. I don't even know if I can go back, once I start the Diazepam road!

 

Even though I am deathly ill, mostly bed-bound and disfunctional, under extreme pain and distress, desperate to get any relief, I am just not ready to start the crossover at this point. I want to think about it some more for a couple of days. However, I do support you fully in any decision you will take, as I am sure your experience so far has brought you a lot of knowledge and I know you will do what is best for your body. I am still "new" to this and trying to make sense of everything with a scrambled brain! 

 

Anyway, each day brings us closer to being whole and healed. Onward and froward!

 

 

That's the spirit !!! I'm so happy with this post, it's even better than you would actually take the Valium.   

 

 

  Can you send me the box of pills though, 10 mg is too much for you ...   

 

 

Relax NewOgirl, I'm not your doctor or psychiatrist pushing 7 or 10 different drugs up your behind. I'm not the enemy here !   

 

Whatever decision you make I will support it. The only reason I was suggesting the Valium is for doing the taper off the other drugs. But sure I can understand you don't want to introduce another drug into your regimen. Valium is definitely not the magical bullet and solution or answer to all problems. Withdrawing from Valium is not to be underestimated or taken lightly and yes indeed I guess Dr. Heather Ashton doesn't fully understand this subject or concept it seems. I was just concerned about you because you were talking about all these underlying conditions you have and being only 88 lbs. I was worried and thought maybe she could use some help to taper off those med's and get some more appetite. Little did I know your psycho doctor would prescribe you the 10 mg tablets while you would only need 2 or 5 mg at most.

 

I'm also very happy you came across or are affiliated with Dr. Jennifer Leigh. Couldn't be any better. I'm totally for it. You should know I'm 100% behind her teachings lol. It just needs to be feasible if you know what I mean. I don't want you to hurt yourself or get into trouble by pushing yourself too hard.   

 

 

Dude, you're not getting any of my Valium!!!

 

You know, the doctor prescribed me 10mg Diazepam because there is no other smaller dosage available in my country. Also, I'm not affiliated to Dr. Leigh, I'm just out there looking for information and found her blog. I didn't get upset, I do know you are well meaning and only looking to help.

 

You are right, I could get into trouble by pushing my self too hard. But I could get into trouble also by switching. I just don't know what to do at this point. I don't know if I can go back to my original benzo once I've crossed over to Valium. :'(

 

I've found some more info on Monica Cassani's website: https://beyondmeds.com/2009/01/16/the-klonopin-valium-crossover-explained/ It's a quote from an article written by Dr. Reg Pearth : "The combined half-life of diazepam and its active metabolites is over 200 hours and this produces an accumulation of 5-7 times the therapeutic action of diazepam."

 

So sick, need to think this through...

Dude, you're not getting any of my Valium!!!

 

You know, the doctor prescribed me 10mg Diazepam because there is no other smaller dosage available in my country. Also, I'm not affiliated to Dr. Leigh, I'm just out there looking for information and found her blog. I didn't get upset, I do know you are well meaning and only looking to help.

 

You are right, I could get into trouble by pushing my self too hard. But I could get into trouble also by switching. I just don't know what to do at this point. I don't know if I can go back to my original benzo once I've crossed over to Valium. :'(

 

I've found some more info on Monica Cassani's website: https://beyondmeds.com/2009/01/16/the-klonopin-valium-crossover-explained/ It's a quote from an article written by Dr. Reg Pearth : "The combined half-life of diazepam and its active metabolites is over 200 hours and this produces an accumulation of 5-7 times the therapeutic action of diazepam."

So sick, need to think this through...

 

Dude, you're not getting any of my Valium!!!

 

 

 

Dr. Reg Pearth : "The combined half-life of diazepam and its active metabolites is over 200 hours and this produces an accumulation of 5-7 times the therapeutic action of diazepam."

 

:'(

 

This makes a lot of sense if you think about it. This must be the reason why so many people in here including me are having such a hard time to taper off of Valium. You sure are digging deep into this stuff and doing your homework here ! Do you sleep at night ? 

 

I think this is a classical case of information overload ...   

 

Now you are investigating and know more than the doctors and benzo-buddies !!!! How dare you breaking down the religion of the Valium taper and the Ashton methode ...   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi New girl,

there's a Valium/Diazepam Support taper thread on BB that might be useful for you to take a look at or ask your questions.... some very informed folks with lots of experience..... your questions are valid and good.... switching is a personal and tricky thing to do.

 

Hey you guys, thanks for writing! It makes me feel better just to talk to someone about these issues.

I will look into that thread.

Hugs and kisses, xoxo

Nice avatar and crossbow NewOGirl,   

 

 

Are you going to use that against your psychiatrist ? Richard Kuklinski AKA "The Iceman" says it works very well and does a terrific job.   

 

You didn't get this from me. His words.     

 

 

 

Dude, you are playing with fire here, you're gonna get banned from posting for doctor-bashing!! 

Dude, you are playing with fire here, you're gonna get banned from posting for doctor-bashing!! 

 

 

I've been waiting for a warning for weeks now. Eventually they will give me one but I guess they are on vacation. Also what you need to understand is that I do write posts in which I praise my doctor too. I'm just trying to make a point and let it come across here. I'm being extremely neutral. How about the patient-bashing ? And bringing into danger the lives of people ?? I mean just imagine what would happen if you followed your psychiatrist's advice ... Just think about that. Wouldn't you be ending up dead ? I truly believe so. That's why I feel no remorse for psychiatrist's whatsoever and I go so hard on them. There are good ones, but they don't prescribe any med's and are very few. People need to understand most doctors are killing people and bringing them into great danger. Not all though. This forum would never exist if doctors actually did they research about benzo's and started taking responsibility for their own actions and just owning the situation. Hell, we have to do everything here !!!! Like you investigating and researching all those studies on the internet ... What are they doing ? Are we medical doctors or scholars ?? Are we in the medical profession AM I A PSYCHIATRIST ????       

 

 

 

Hey TotalRelapse! I know what you mean by making a point, but don't you think we all that are here already know about the dangers of these meds and these doctors, having experienced them first hand? You are kinda preaching to the choir here! 

 

Of course what you are saying is totally justified, but I am in a pretty bad shape at the moment and can't afford getting angry. I am focusing on healing  first and foremost for the time being and leaving getting angry for later. Yes, I do believe you are right in that I would be dead if I were to take all that cocktail of benzos and antidepressants and antipshychotics. Or end up mentally disabled. It's extremely dangerous, and I can't believe how messed up I already am.

 

To tell you the truth, I am mentally prepared for anything to happen next, since I have months left to taper off. And then the jump!

 

Regarding the Valium crossover, I finally decided I'm not going to go trough with it. I don't feel it's right for my situation. Hopefully I can taper my current benzo.

 

We can do this! Onward and forward! 

TotalRelapse, I don't want to play moderator but I think what you wrote at the beginning of this thread borders on being prescriptive IMHO.

 

'But you shouldn't be confused about the effects of Valium on your body. Obviously it's the most safe drug and benzo on your body and you should know this by now. They use it to get people off other benzo's and alcohol for a reason. Because it's much easier, milder, softer and "healthier" on and for your body than any other drug. They even use it for coming off an SSRI and what have you ... '

 

I'd say that diazepam is an extremely dangerous drug. It accumulates to 5-8 times the daily dose after continuous dosing, and that is not even counting the build up of desmethyldiazepam.

Bad pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics.

 

I could say more ... the 'Ashton manual': don't believe everything you read on the internet !

Having said that, for many people diazepam works but for many it doesn't. That is apparent in the very beginning or during the taper process. Not familiar with that cina... drug.

That's the spirit !!! I'm so happy with this post, it's even better than you would actually take the Valium.   

 

 

  Can you send me the box of pills though, 10 mg is too much for you ...   

 

 

Relax NewOgirl, I'm not your doctor or psychiatrist pushing 7 or 10 different drugs up your behind. I'm not the enemy here !   

 

Whatever decision you make I will support it. The only reason I was suggesting the Valium is for doing the taper off the other drugs. But sure I can understand you don't want to introduce another drug into your regimen. Valium is definitely not the magical bullet and solution or answer to all problems. Withdrawing from Valium is not to be underestimated or taken lightly and yes indeed I guess Dr. Heather Ashton doesn't fully understand this subject or concept it seems. I was just concerned about you because you were talking about all these underlying conditions you have and being only 88 lbs. I was worried and thought maybe she could use some help to taper off those med's and get some more appetite. Little did I know your psycho doctor would prescribe you the 10 mg tablets while you would only need 2 or 5 mg at most.

 

I'm also very happy you came across or are affiliated with Dr. Jennifer Leigh. Couldn't be any better. I'm totally for it. You should know I'm 100% behind her teachings lol. It just needs to be feasible if you know what I mean. I don't want you to hurt yourself or get into trouble by pushing yourself too hard.   

 

 

 

 

 

Liberty, this was my second post. Any comments on this one ? I'm just supporting her oké ?? Just read this post and other posts I made in her other threads and posts she made concerning questions about Valium. And believe me there were many ... I'm done here. Just judging and attacking a person for trying to help ... Just read my second post man before you start crying.

 

 

"TotalRelapse, I don't want to play moderator but I think what you wrote at the beginning of this thread borders on being prescriptive IMHO."

 

Exactly, you are not a moderator thank God. And on the edge of being prescriptive ... yes exactly ! ON THE EDGE of being prescriptive is not being prescriptive. Dude she been asking about Valium for weeks ! She wanted to take it and asked her doctor.

I was just trying to help her. As soon as I saw she didn't want to take it I went like : "WELL YOU CAN READ IT ABOVE ....". This is done with. I'm done here. Sorry NewOgirl but I honestly think you brought this stuff on to yourself, I was just following your mood wings. I always let you decide and supported you in whatever decision you wanted to make.

 

And liberty ... it would be very hard to be prescriptive to someone like her who comes out with dozens of new articles and opinions of other doctors and does nothing but research on the internet and actually knows all the answers to the questions she's asking in her deep down inside already. She's not so dumb I could prescribe her anything. Hell, even her doctor didn't succeed in that one ... 

 

I'm getting really fed up here.

I think you're just angry 'cause I won't give you my Valium.

The 100-200 hours half-life is a measure of the time that Valium or its metabolites (some of which are also benzos) remain in the bloodstream. An implication of a 100-200 hour half-life is that the serum concentration of Valium and/or metabolites of Valium will reach 5-7 times the daily dose after you've taken it for at least a week. However, this is not something you need to worry about, since this is taken into account when calculations of dosage or equivalencies are done.

 

Hope this helps,

 

CP

I think you're just angry 'cause I won't give you my Valium.

 

Now you will learn NewOGirl it's better to give than to receive.     

 

 

Oh God, how I wish I could just let this thread go and move on with my/the life I don't have. It's not like anyone is holding a gun to my head here but I just can't resist. And I'm going to say this to you guys once again.

 

"Dr. Reg Pearth : "The combined half-life of diazepam and its active metabolites is over 200 hours and this produces an accumulation of 5-7 times the therapeutic action of diazepam."

 

Oh Lord, how I wish this was true !! I really wish Diazepam would do that to me ... I really wish and pray to God Diazepam would give me 5-7 times of the therapeutic action !!!! I would have never ever touched Oxycontin or Xanax or whatever drug available if this was the truth I would be as high as a kite !!!

 

Weird how in reality if I reduce by just 1 mg I feel the withdrawals within just 2 hours, from there on I feel better to the 1 week point mark and feel stable at the 2 weeks point mark. Then my withdrawals are done and I'm ready for my next cut. It would be a smart move to still hold for another 2 weeks though just to let the body adapt a bit more. Believe me, there's not much Valium build up in my body and if there is sure as hell won't be 5 to 7 times the therapeutic action or dose. I tried ALL other benzo's and not one has kept me so steady and stable as Valium. It's the only benzo that does the trick for me because I hardly feel it working on the background. I just feel clear and sober on it like I haven't taken a benzo at all. All it does for me is keeping the withdrawals at bay but any other benzo would "change" me. Xanax is 10 times more potent than Valium, if I take that I'm ready for bed. Ativan Lorazepam is a baby benzo in my opinion I hardly feel it when I take 1 mg (=10 mg of Valium). About Xanax ... if you take this one you might want to get ready for a big hangover and having a like really pissed off and angry feeling the next day. This is just for me. I heard from other people they get like severely depressed, anxious, nervous and highly aggressive the day after taking Xanax. Now if we compare this to Diazepam Valium, I just don't know. I already told you NewOgirl you should follow your heart and just taper off the z-drugs. I don't want to replace my Zolpidem with 5 mg of Valium either. Then I will have more Valium to taper off of.

I think you're just angry 'cause I won't give you my Valium.

 

"Dr. Reg Pearth : "The combined half-life of diazepam and its active metabolites is over 200 hours and this produces an accumulation of 5-7 times the therapeutic action of diazepam."

 

Oh Lord, how I wish this was true !! I really wish Diazepam would do that to me ... I really wish and pray to God Diazepam would give me 5-7 times of the therapeutic action !!!! I would have never ever touched Oxycontin or Xanax or whatever drug available if this was the truth I would be as high as a kite !!!

 

Oh Lord, how I wish it was true, either. If Diazepam accumulation of 5-7 times and its therapeutic action was so potent, I would have been able to get ativan out of my life completely, instead of holding at 0.5mg of Ativan for dear life, as I cannot taper it any further at this point. Also, if Diazepam accumulation was so neuro-protective and long lasting, Dr. Reg Peart would have not suffered on it for 20+ years that he did. (Also, for those who are not in the know, Reg Peart had a doctorate in PhD in Atomics physics, not medicine. Good to keep in mind!). Yes, he was one of the pioneers in raising awareness of dangers of tranquilizers, and his work was legendary, but, in my opinion, some of his valium crossover suggestions are way too fast and head-spinning for most people on high-potency benzodiazepines. Just my two cents.

You may assume it's true, although I was under the impression that the 5-7 times was for diazepam itself.

 

Diazepam is just a different drug. If you're not on it already, bad pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics.

Hi LorazepamFree2015,

 

Yes, I agree, it's very important to keep in mind that Dr. Reg Peart had a doctorate in PhD in Atomics physics, not medicine. But it's equally important to keep in mind that he was C/T three times, received numerous ECT and a cocktail of several potent psychiatric drugs. I think we can all agree that anyone would be messed up after that, Valium or no Valium! (source: http://www.benzo.org.uk/peartbio.htm)

 

That being said, I do take your personal experience into account, and I am still considering the possibility of a C/O if I fail at my taper. However, there are still numerous people that regret having switched to Diazepam on this forum, check the Valium support thread for some stories. But there are others too. So, it's not so simple and clear cut.

 

Thank you all that have contributed to this thread. Wish you well, xoxo

Yes, it's complicated. I don't really regret a valium crossover because it helped me reduce ativan, which was far more dangerous to my health and well-beting. It's just that in some situations, full crossovers may not be entirely possible, due to differences in potency of these meds, so at some point, the best one can do in such situations may be to just reduce the overall bzd dependency the best way they can. Intuition and listening to our bodies plays a huge role in this.

 

Yes, I read Reg Peart's story, but I keep wondering about his early years. Yes, he is not really a representative of most people here, since his valium doses were far in excess of therapeutic doses. I don't know what it's like where you live, but in the United States, it is very difficult to find a doctor who will prescribe more that 10mg Valium/day.

 

Well, good luck with your taper

 

Oh, just one more thing. I did notice that your weight is really low, and valium can act as an apetite stimulant for some people (it sure did it for me). So it is something to consider. I was losing weight big time when on ativan, only.

 

Thank you LorazepamFree2015, for such a nice supportive post, I needed it. I have cut yesterday and it has been brutal.  You have helped many on these boards, through this very difficult journey. You are a kind soul.

 

Reg Peart's story is a nightmare, thank God it's not really representative of most people here! I don't know about the USA, maybe it's more closely regulated, but in my country, I think you can get a prescription for any dose, lol!  Ultimately, benzos sure are misprescribed everywhere and info on their dangers is very scarce. I have heard and seen stories/movies/articles about the dangers of alcohol, drugs... but benzos? Forget it! I had. No. Idea.

 

We must keep hope. We will make it out of this mess. We will heal. Onward and forward! 

Yes, there seem to be waves of overprescribing in the USA, followed by waves of over-correction and much less prescribing. Some of this was before my time, but it looks like the waves of prescribing and deprescribing have been going on for decades. The trouble we have is that the doctors are not on the same page here. Some are much more benzo-aware than the others. I mean every doctor here pretty much knows that you can't just take Oxycontin day after day and be fine, but, with benzos, it's very different as there is no consensus among the doctors about how much, how long, what dose, etc.

 

 

Yes, it's complicated. I don't really regret a valium crossover because it helped me reduce ativan, which was far more dangerous to my health and well-beting. It's just that in some situations, full crossovers may not be entirely possible, due to differences in potency of these meds, so at some point, the best one can do in such situations may be to just reduce the overall bzd dependency the best way they can. Intuition and listening to our bodies plays a huge role in this.

 

Yes, I read Reg Peart's story, but I keep wondering about his early years. Yes, he is not really a representative of most people here, since his valium doses were far in excess of therapeutic doses. I don't know what it's like where you live, but in the United States, it is very difficult to find a doctor who will prescribe more that 10mg Valium/day.

 

Well, good luck with your taper

 

Oh, just one more thing. I did notice that your weight is really low, and valium can act as an apetite stimulant for some people (it sure did it for me). So it is something to consider. I was losing weight big time when on ativan, only.

 

This is exactly the reason why I suggested the crossover to Valium. In my country you are very lucky if they prescribe you the 10 mg tablets.